Sondors Fact Finding. Due Diligence. Scrutiny.

[pxpaulx]

That's exactly what I'd do for any ebike I received. Easy Motion actually requires a professional/LBS to assemble the bike as a condition of their warranty program. But I think it's just a good thing to do if one is not already skilled and experienced in bike assembly.

Bah, that is what youtube is for! But, you also need the space, the tools and maybe a bit of luck

 

[FTC Complaint]

The "lack of assembly instructions" and documentation seems to be a common concern; and there are a few bad assemblies as a result.

 

[Chas]

Interesting video, thanks!

a 60+ lb single speed fat tire bike just wouldn't be my thing off road. The guy on the mountain bike just left him in the dust during the some of the technical parts. I'm thinking this bike is better for or maybe double track gravel grinding.

I'm still curious to see someone pedal the bike at 20 mph and pedal the bike with a dead battery. One of those isn't going to work to well.

 

[Chas]

The "lack of assembly instructions" and documentation seems to be a common concern; and there are a few bad assemblies as a result.

Yeah, should add cost of assembly to the realistic purchase price of the bike. I'm guessing at least $100?

 

[Ann M.]

This is not a particularly complicate bike to assemble, @Chas so I think that price is a bit on the high side; $50 to $75 max.

 

[PowerMe]

I paid $60 for my Evo bike assembly. Sonders would be less than that I bet.

 

[FTC Complaint]

From the "first impressions thread" here is a main takeaway from "Monostrato." (which belongs here in overview)

"if you're life is going to ride on this thing and being a bicycle it IS literally riding on this thing"

-Above is the critical thinking, main point, of the Sondors debacle.

http://electricbikereview.com/community/threads/sonders-first-impressions.2263/

This main point loops back on everything including the lack of assembly instructions, poor quality, brake problems (undersized brakes), improper assembly (three known so far), lack of customer support (Lord of the Flies),lack of QA (per post) and probable lack of product liability insurance.

 

[pxpaulx]

Is this still going to continue if everyone receives their bikes? Nobody will be listening at that point. I defended the Motostrano post as relevant to that thread, and it is - but you also can't pull one sentence out of their entire posts to suit your needs. They also simultaneously throw every other E-bike shop and regular bike shop under the bus, essentially claiming they are one of the few places that can service an Ebike both from the E perspective and the bike perspective. Everything they are doing could be done by a regular bike shop - you walk in and say don't touch the electrics, please take my money and set up the non-electric parts of the bike as you would for any other bike that comes in your shop. Talking about lubing bolts and spooning tires - you fixed a bike flat, you've spooned a tire, it isn't rocket science. Dishing requires the right tool, bike bolts, another set of tools, but none of it is a secret if you want to learn yourself.

I also agree with their sentiment that the sondors is, for all intents and purposes, a complete kit - kits have a place in the market, always have and always will. Bikes in particular are an infinite mash-up of potential parts to anyone who cares to venture outside the lines of the showroom floor.

 

[FTC Complaint]

you also can't pull one sentence out of their entire posts to suit your needs

The sentence happens to be the main idea of the paragraph.

Is this still going to continue if everyone receives their bikes? Nobody will be listening at that point.

Injury, potentially life threatening injury, can result from a poor quality bike with no customer support or quality control.
That is why bikes are sold under "strict liability." The $300 lower price point represents an financial evasion, of responsibility, as it relates to a legal doctrine that effects a whole industry.

"Let's be clear here folks: The only "big successes" in business over the last decade have been found in various forms of regulatory arbitrage and cost-shifting -- not innovation."

Talking about lubing bolts and spooning tires - you fixed a bike flat, you've spooned a tire,....

Pictured, you will find that they are truing a wheel. They are providing a service essential to the proper operation of the bike. Do consumers have truing stations? NO. Could they true a wheel on the bike? NO!

That service has a cost associated with it. Storm admits that this cost, risk, and responsibility has been shunted to the end user purchaser.

"it is STRONGLY recommended that you take your Sondors electric bike to a local bike shop... for a fee.."

The bike is devoid of documentation; another cost evaded.

I also agree with their sentiment that the sondors is, for all intents and purposes, a complete kit - kits have a place in the market, always have and always will.

People DID NOT purchase A KIT, they purchased a finished (or in this case a not so finished) product without assembly instructions.

You are denigrating someones positive experience, weaving conspiracy theories that get proved false, and detracting from an incredible accomplishment to lower prices of ebikes; it was truly a great accomplishment of that visionary Storm Sondors the Tesla of ebikes

There is no accomplishment here. The numbers speak to fact, and a bike that "is cheap from a quality standpoint" is not really cheap at all when you consider all the elements that Storm has evaded. (The elements any reputable going concern would need to consider; to consider those elements Storm would be selling at a loss per bike {he might even be losing money should he make Agency 2.0 whole})

The bike is (and will be) more expensive (to you) than buying from a reputable manufacturer or retail shop.

I REALLY HATE CONSUMERS! They are a feckless lot and they deserve being taken advantage of. Believe what they may; which could be anything conceivable.

 

[pxpaulx]

Pictured, you will find that they are truing a wheel. They are providing a service essential to the proper operation of the bike. That service has a cost associated with it.

thanks captain obvious. they also talked about spooning the tires, which was what i was talking about, not the photo of them truing the wheel.

 

[FTC Complaint]

Oh yes, anyone can change a tire. How many people are going to put the tire on in the proper direction? How many people put the fork in the wrong direction? One percent of a containers worth!

How many can true a wheel? ZERO

How many Storm bikes have untrue wheels? That would be a common problem of bikes delivered and shipped individually as they were.

And no, regular bike shops are not going to be very happy to service these bikes; And no, they are not going to refuse the bikes just because they have electronics that cannot be serviced. These bikes (being cheap) are not the type of bikes that many/most bike shops will want to service. YMMV in finding a shop, the very shop that Storm recommends you to find!

How do I know this;

Talks with several bike shops in several states, QBP, and Marsh McLennan as part of a business plan.

I know of at least one ebike manufacturer who ships partially assembled in the box; and they will refund the costs associated with wheel truing because they expect this to occur frequently.

 

[pxpaulx]

excuse me, i talked about dishing, which is part of truing a wheel. please make sure you read and understand all the terms discussed before you paint yourself into a corner and again take someones words (mine in this case) out of context.

people put fat bike tires on backwards intentionally for certain conditions as well. did you know that?

also, fyi the rear wheel on my radrover isnt true, yet. and i will do it myself. notice i am not crying bloody murder about it.

 

[FTC Complaint]

The $300 price differential: AKA Why is this bike $300 cheaper than most other cheap e:bikes?

The money has to come from somewhere; Follow the numbers and you will find the missing $300.

Assembly
Insurance
Customer Support
Documentation
Accountability
Quality Control/Assurance
Follow up/on
Reserves for going concern, recalls, and strict liability
Paying your vendors (Agency 2.0)
Changing terms and the end point deliverable (we are upgrading you free)

Yes, the money comes from somewhere.

Oh, yeah it was a loss leader and the regular price is $1,250.. that ain't going to happen either. This is a hit and run.

I really hate consumers.. they believe anything see the "Lord of the Flies"

 

[pxpaulx]

motostrano called it a kit, get your references straight.

 

[EULITTLB]

Sorry to butt-in, my primary focus has always been the Campaign and the false and misleading claims - @ FTC, like it or lump it it appears as long as most people are at this stage happy with what they have received - how many have received bikes is not known - then all the advertising bile and spec claims, 45lbs weight, produced from parts all made in-house, 50 mile range etc are soon forgotten. I understand where SS may have cut corners but the end-user doesn't care why or how the price is so low until something happens or a component fails - how many end-users are there though, how many will there be? Appear to be 0 in the EU, I believe for good reason too given the customs liability and legalities for road use. One voices of dissension are heard they may well grow, and "vindictive paid trolls" like myself may not be viewed in the same manner...........

 

[FTC Complaint]

Sorry to butt-in, my primary focus has always been the Campaign and the false and misleading claims - @ FTC, like it or lump it it appears as long as most people are at this stage happy with what they have received - how many have received bikes is not known - then all the advertising bile and spec claims, 45lbs weight, produced from parts all made in-house, 50 mile range etc are soon forgotten. I understand where SS may have cut corners but the end-user doesn't care why or how the price is so low until something happens or a component fails - how many end-users are there though, how many will there be? Appear to be 0 in the EU, I believe for good reason too given the customs liability and legalities for road use. One voices of dissension are heard they may well grow, and "vindictive paid trolls" like myself may not be viewed in the same manner...........

The false and misleading claims are easily provable. However, the laws for false advertising claims apply to damage to an industry player, not the consumer. Consumers bringing false advertising claims about Storm to court will find themselves shut down. It is a moot point except to say (argue) that a contract was invalid.


The consumer has recourse through contact law. What was offered and accepted is different than what was delivered and paid for. The contract description changed!

Another potential avenue of recourse is Warranty Express or Implied. Did Sondors expressly say there was a 30 day warranty of some kind?

"Exercising your warranty" might be a way to convince your credit card company to issue a refund. First, You would have to give Storm the opportunity to cure any defect. I don't know if the warranty has dispappered from the ever changing indiegogo and Sondors web sites.

The warranty is essentially a contractual agreement that the good will be of a particular quality and without defect.

Having non-functional or poorly functional brakes could be considered a breach of the implied warranty as the bike would be unfit for the ordinary purposes.

The bike "should have" come with a warranty statement as well as a statement expressing "how the product should be used."

If you want recourse then you better take action soon after getting your bike, should it be defective.

A consumers best bet might be through CA.. Elements being what you have to prove.

3210. Breach of Implied Warranty of Merchantability - Essential Factual Elements

[Name of plaintiff] claims that the [consumer good] did not have the quality that a buyer would reasonably expect. This is known as "breach of an implied warranty." To establish this claim, [name of plaintiff] must prove all of the following:

1. That [name of plaintiff] bought a[n] [consumer good] [from/ manufactured by] [name of defendant];

2. That at the time of purchase [name of defendant] was in the business of [selling [consumer goods] to retail buyers] [manufacturing [consumer goods]]; and

3. That the [consumer good] [insert one or more of the following:]

[was not of the same quality as those generally acceptable in the trade;] [or]

[was not fit for the ordinary purposes for which such goods are used;] [or]

[was not adequately contained, packaged, and labeled;] [or]

[did not measure up to the promises or facts stated on the container or label.]

Directions for Use
If remedies are sought under the Commercial Code, the plaintiff may be required to prove reasonable notification within a reasonable time. (Cal. U. Com. Code, § 2607(3).) If the court determines such proof is necessary, add the following element to this instruction:

That [name of plaintiff] took reasonable steps to notify [name of defendant] within a reasonable time that the [consumer good] did not have the quality that a buyer would reasonably expect;

See also CACI No. 1243, Notification/Reasonable Time. Instructions on damages and causation may be necessary in actions brought under the Commercial Code.

Delete element 2 if the defendant is the manufacturer of the consumer good in question or if it is uncontested that the defendant was a retail seller within the meaning of the act.

If appropriate to the facts, add: "It is not necessary for [name of plaintiff] to prove the cause of a defect of the [consumer good]." The Song-Beverly Consumer Warranty Act does not require a consumer to prove the cause of the defect or failure, only that the consumer good "did not conform to the express warranty." (See Oregel v. American Isuzu Motors, Inc. (2001) 90 Cal.App.4th 1094, 1102, fn. 8 [109 Cal.Rptr.2d 583].)

In addition to sales of consumer goods, the Consumer Warranty Act applies to leases—see Civil Code sections 1791(g)-(i) and 1795.4. This instruction may be modified for use in cases involving the implied warranty of merchantability in a lease of consumer goods.


UCC

§ 2-313. Express Warranties by Affirmation, Promise, Description, Sample.
sellerare created as follows:

• (a) Any affirmation of fact or promise made by the seller to the buyer which relates to the goodsand becomes part of the basis of the bargain creates an express warranty that the goods shall conform to the affirmation or promise.
• (b) Any description of the goodswhich is made part of the basis of the bargain creates an express warranty that the goods shall conform to the description.
• (c) Any sample or model which is made part of the basis of the bargain creates an express warranty that the whole of the goods shall conform to the sample or model.

seller use formal words such as "warrant" or "guarantee" or that he have a specific intention to make a warranty, but an affirmation merely of the value of the goods or a statement purporting to be merely the seller's opinion or commendation of the goods does not create a warranty.

§ 2-314. Implied Warranty: Merchantability; Usage of Trade.
2-316), a warranty that the goods shall be merchantable is implied in a contract for their sale if the seller is a merchantwith respect to goods of that kind. Under this section the serving for value of food or drink to be consumed either on the premises or elsewhere is a sale.

Goodsto be merchantable must be at least such as

• (a) pass without objection in the trade under the contractdescription; and
• (b) in the case of fungible goods, are of fair average quality within the description; and
• (c) are fit for the ordinary purposes for which such goodsare used; and
• (d) run, within the variations permitted by the agreement, of even kind, quality and quantity within each unit and among all units involved; and
• (e) are adequately contained, packaged, and labeled as the agreementmay require; and
• (f) conform to the promise or affirmations of fact made on the container or label if any.

 

[EULITTLB]

In fairness apart from a post by Deerfencer on ES complaining about a 7 mile range (he/she weighs 240lbs) I don't hear anybody asking for their money back....... but then again how many bikes have shipped? A couple of hundred? Three hundred? Nobody knows. The claim now is that all bikes will be with US donators by the month end so with 5-6000 approx bikes to be delivered in the next two weeks things will be busy, for international donators there is another meeting sometime about "international timelines" and a better estimated delivery date..... hmmmmm.

 

[FTC Complaint]

In fairness apart from a post by Deerfencer on ES complaining about a 7 mile range (he/she weighs 240lbs) I don't hear anybody asking for their money back....... but then again how many bikes have shipped? A couple of hundred? Three hundred? Nobody knows. The claim now is that all bikes will be with US donators by the month end so with 5-6000 approx bikes to be delivered in the next two weeks things will be busy, for international donators there is another meeting sometime about "international timelines" and a better estimated delivery date..... hmmmmm.

Speak now or forever hold your peace. Storm will be ahead of any recourse as he knows how to evade the legal process, and he knows how to avoid accountability. When he gets to court on the 29th he will likely say that lots of bikes have been delivered and thus he is out of money. (or he won't show, or he will say that if pay 2.0 he won't be able to fulfill).

This is the very last window you may have. If you are injured on this bike due to defect you will be SOL both physically and financially.

 

[Chas]

I paid $60 for my Evo bike assembly. Sonders would be less than that I bet.

$60 sounds reasonable for assembly. Its $50 just for a tune up, and any new bike needs a tune up when assembled, and a tune up after it is broken in.

so, $50 for a build. Maybe another $50 for a tune up in a couple of months, or $75-$100 if the wheel needs to be trued and tightened up.

My Chinese built wheel fell apart pretty fast, and I had to purchase a special (extra large) truing wrench and tighten the spokes, re-true the wheel and dish the wheel. (I guess I am in FTC's "ZERO" category. LOL).

I see walmart bikes that get ridden for a couple of months, get out of wack and need a tune up, and hardly ever get ridden again. I'm doubting most people factored in the maintenance that a local bike shop includes in the purchase of the bike.

 

[JoePah]

yep.. that's the problem with a big box bike or any drop ship bike, regardless of the cost.. You have to set up the bike yourself. And chinese bike wheels are notoriously problematic due to a number of factors.

The best thing to do is to assemble the bike yourself, ride it for a month and bring it in to an LBS for a tune up...