Sondors Fact Finding. Due Diligence. Scrutiny.

[PowerMe]

Clearly the factory is all just staged. Those aren't really bikes at all!

 

[scmike]

@EULITTLB

They had a schedule and what they last showed, blue frames I think, was the end of the line. So there are either a lot of bikes in boxes, owned by their owners, or there aren't. Some containers are here. There will be deliveries in a matter of days, or not. In theory any assembly line for whatever they were building is shut down, or about to be. We know nothing of phase two, even whether Storm will ever leave China, ever come back here, ever do anything to make another bike.

If there are bikes and the bikes are not interesting, then the story is over. If the bikes are OK, then there is a different kind of ebike rolling around, something that might matter.

It's an interesting question how hard they push the workers on the assembly line when the cameras are not around. In general, they don't allow cameras. I understand there may be some occupational safety and health issue over there. Maybe it would have been more convincing if the line got held up by someone and then, off in the distance, they were flogging him.

Maybe Storm wants people to believe his bikes are being made in a humane way. Are they? Are iPhones? Maybe that's the fraud. It will be great when this is over. We can do a poll, "How many minutes/days/weeks of your life did you waste on the Sondo ebike, the saga of Chris 'n Storm?"

I think this Sondors' 15 minutes of fame (Andy Warhol observation)... he may get another 15 minutes if he shows up in a CA court... big if...

 

[Yan Lyansky]

Clearly the factory is all just staged. Those aren't really bikes at all!

Using some simple mathematical calculations you will find the assembly line is unable to produce more than 400 units a month ( and that is generous ). FYI I am a math professor and a bicycle designer and imported Downtube folding bikes into the USA for 12 years.

The video does not prove you will not get a bike, however it does show that you will never get one if that is really the assembly line. An associate of mine that is a well known bicycle editor and has visited factories confirmed the maximum bicycles on this assembly line can not be more than 30 per day ( that's generous ).



Thanks,
Yan

 

[flymeaway]

I was fascinated by their choice of tools, 1/2 air driven impact wrench to assemble the axle and bearings on the bottom bracket. I'd hate to go to their dentist!

Court J.

 

[FTC Complaint]

Using some simple mathematical calculations you will find the assembly line is unable to produce more than 400 units a month ( and that is generous ). FYI I am a math professor and a bicycle designer and imported Downtube folding bikes into the USA for 12 years.

The video does not prove you will not get a bike, however it does show that you will never get one if that is really the assembly line. An associate of mine that is a well known bicycle editor and has visited factories confirmed the maximum bicycles on this assembly line can not be more than 30 per day ( that's generous ).

Thanks,
Yan

Yan,

I ran some numbers as well, when the first pictures of "the warehouse" were shown. It is just a warehouse being used to assemble parts that were produced elsewhere. There was a painting station in one of the previous pictures, as well as a wheel assembly operation. There was also a picture of a truck full of frames and I think another full of rims. Are the rims being assembled by machine or are they laced by hand? The triangle box also hides a variety of sins, including taking the time to put the wires in the frame where they belong.

They have about eight people each doing an assembly operation; so that is 80 man hours per day. One container can be met if each bike takes 1/4 (.26) man hours to assemble, 30 a day would be a whopping 2.6 man hours per bike! The truth might be 30 a day or 300 or somewhere in between. It would be great to see your math.

30 2.666666667
40 2
50 1.6
60 1.333333333
70 1.142857143
80 1
90 0.8888888889
100 0.8
150 0.5333333333
200 0.4
300 0.2666666667

My guess is they can assemble a container ever other day or so assuming most of the work has been done elsewhere. Personally I spent about two man weeks building my own ebike. I cannot speak to what they are doing or how they are doing it.

 

[Yan Lyansky]

FTC,

To get a good price on a finished bicycle everything needs to be done in one place. This includes frame welding, wheel building, painting, and assembly. I have seen all these things done at my factory.

The wheel building machine they have is a joke....they need more than one machine to get 14000 wheels built in any reasonable amount of time.

To calculate the time for this project you need only find the bottleneck ( slowest point ) and use that as your base factor to multiply. Looks like the wheel building will take years from the slow motion lacing and one machine for 14000 units. I did not see any frame building, I did not see any real wheel building, and I did not see a real production line. This project may work....if so the production line will not be anything close to the one represented in the videos.

Thanks,
Yan

Yan,

I ran some numbers as well, when the first pictures of "the warehouse" were shown. It is just a warehouse being used to assemble parts that were produced elsewhere. There was a painting station in one of the previous pictures, as well as a wheel assembly operation. There was also a picture of a truck full of frames and I think another full of rims. Are the rims being assembled by machine or are they laced by hand? The triangle box also hides a variety of sins, including taking the time to put the wires in the frame where they belong.

They have about eight people each doing an assembly operation; so that is 80 man hours per day. One container can be met if each bike takes 1/4 (.26) man hours to assemble, 30 a day would be a whopping 2.6 man hours per bike! The truth might be 30 a day or 300 or somewhere in between. It would be great to see your math.

30 2.666666667
40 2
50 1.6
60 1.333333333
70 1.142857143
80 1
90 0.8888888889
100 0.8
150 0.5333333333
200 0.4
300 0.2666666667

My guess is they can assemble a container ever other day or so assuming most of the work has been done elsewhere. Personally I spent about two man weeks building my own ebike. I cannot speak to what they are doing or how they are doing it.

 

[pxpaulx]

FTC,

To get a good price on a finished bicycle everything needs to be done in one place. This includes frame welding, wheel building, painting, and assembly. I have seen all these things done at my factory.

The wheel building machine they have is a joke....they need more than one machine to get 14000 wheels built in any reasonable amount of time.

To calculate the time for this project you need only find the bottleneck ( slowest point ) and use that as your base factor to multiply. Looks like the wheel building will take years from the slow motion lacing and one machine for 14000 units. I did not see any frame building, I did not see any real wheel building, and I did not see a real production line. This project may work....if so the production line will not be anything close to the one represented in the videos.

Thanks,
Yan

You do know that your calculations and knowledge are still just educated guess work, since you have not seen the entirety of what is going on but only what has been shown, right? I would hazard a guess that they have more than one person running spokes and truing the wheels. To suggest that they don't is as comically bad as the idea itself.

 

[Yan Lyansky]

You do know that your calculations and knowledge are still just educated guess work, since you have not seen the entirety of what is going on but only what has been shown, right? I would hazard a guess that they have more than one person running spokes and truing the wheels. To suggest that they don't is as comically bad as the idea itself.

I understand that I do not know the entirety of the operation. However, normally stations are kept together....frame welding, wheel building, painting, etc. Hence seeing one wheel being built at a factory is awkward.....by moving the camera you should see many more wheels being built 10+ at a time is not uncommon.

Thanks,
Yan

 

[George S.]

While the Sondo bike is microscopically dissected, the Wave IGG bike slides this across the plate:

-Top Speed LimiterDue to local and federal regulations, we are required to limit the Wave Electric Bikes to have a top speed of no more than 20 MPH. This means that we will be adding an external wire connected to the controller which limits the top speed of each bike to 20 MPH. Shall you choose to remove or disable this limitation, please do so at your own risk.

Wave sold the bike for months as going 28 mph. Consider the headline on their page, right now. Under the new proposed Cal regs, they have to certify top speed on a sticker. If you change it, you have to re-certify it.

Due diligence? They didn't know there was a 20 mph limit? Really?

 

[FTC Complaint]

While the Sondo bike is microscopically dissected, the Wave IGG bike slides this across the plate:

Due diligence? They didn't know there was a 20 mph limit? Really?

At least Wave Runner is cognizant of, and thus will comply with US regulations; and they are refunding international sales. George, I would agree that the misrepresentation regarding speed was known to them.

Sondors, only cares about Sondors! and he is a "court certified deadbeat."

As to the manufacturing; the whole story is odd because an existing product could have been efficiently OEM'ed. And NO, his limited operation does not look like any factory I have ever seen. As Yan mentioned, an integrated approach would be more cost effective.

Once again, If a bike will be delivered it will be woefully incomplete to law, support, safety, business considerations, and standard.

Sondors has Fraud written all over it; Wave Runner (being a fast follower) just seems to be a crowd-funding opportunist adjusting to concerns as they present themselves.

On another note; a real human being at the FDA is now tracking the Airing CPAP, another crowd-funding boondoggle.

 

[George S.]

Sondors has Fraud written all over it

We'll know soon enough.

There are some serious flaws with the Wave. They have largely gotten a pass.

The arguments about the Sondo have gotten ridiculous. He's taken about 40 days, manufacturing. He has about 6,000 bikes to make, my guess. That is 150 bikes a day. Maybe they work multiple shifts, so 6 bikes an hour.

Why speculate? We'll know if 6,000 bikes arrive when they arrive or don't arrive, in July. At least he said there were bikes in a production run, and an end point, a ship date. If that doesn't happen, he is a fraud. I think it's better if the bikes show up. I think it's better if he's not a fraud. It's all going to be over soon enough.

I don't see how the demonstrated deception of Wave is 'better' than your speculations about Storm, exactly. There are issues with the Skillion and some other CF bikes. I've tried to evaluate all of them, in a few minutes.

What am I supposed to say? I'm happy if you're unhappy? Something like that? This thing has to be winding down. If it's a fraud Obama will give you a Medal of Freedom and you'll be on the cover of Time. Right?

 

[FTC Complaint]

Sondors has Fraud written all over it

We'll know soon enough.

We know now, because he is scheduled for court in late July and has been there before on similar grounds.

 

[EULITTLB]

@ Yan - thank you for posting on my FB Page initially and positively contributing to this page with some qualified insights, which I believe fully back up my concerns regarding the Sondors Campaign and videos....

My first name is Ian (pronounced ee-un) and I am often called Yan by people of different nationalities.

I believe there will be a sting in the tail added to the misrepresentation of performance on the Sondors ebike, of that I have no doubt - 7000 bikes have not been produced.

 

[Yan Lyansky]

@ Yan - thank you for posting on my FB Page initially and positively contributing to this page with some qualified insights, which I believe fully back up my concerns regarding the Sondors Campaign and videos....

My first name is Ian (pronounced ee-un) and I am often called Yan by people of different nationalities.

I believe there will be a sting in the tail added to the misrepresentation of performance on the Sondors ebike, of that I have no doubt - 7000 bikes have not been produced.

No problem....however I don't see my contribution as helpful. I do not feel good adding what I see.

Thanks,
Yan

 

[wa5]

Sondors says some bikes are clearing customs, we shouldn't have too long to see how many, how good and how close to original spec (whatever that was)

 

[FTC Complaint]

Once again, If a bike will be delivered it will be woefully incomplete to law, support, safety, business considerations, and standard.
Because the other 2 or 3 dozen times you posted this somehow didn't properly convey your message? It's like a bad scene out of Groundhog's Day.

If anything is being repeated it would be denial of fact.

Karl, at the Market Ticker had this to say about UBER but it also applies to the crowdfunding of bikes.

Have long argued that most of the so-called "sharing" economy is nothing more than regulatory arbitrage; finding ways to cheat on various laws that impose costs which will eventually be blocked by the governments involved as it impairs tax revenue.

Avoiding regulation, safety, law, process, insurance, support; etc.. are all ways to avoid cost by arbitraging them away through the sharing economy.

 

[pxpaulx]

No facts are being denied.

Facts are facts.

Repeating them ad nauseum doesn't make them 'more factual.' It just makes the posts spam. IMO.

...and repeatedly complaining that the same things are being repeated? Same definition of spam...

Maybe this thread should be shut until we get some bikes in hand then. Worked at endless sphere, granted the Sondors supporters weren't shut out there (I am in no way granting any of the vehement supporters a pass for their conduct in general), but hearing a one-sided argument here is getting kind of old.

 

[stevenast]

Maybe this thread should be shut until we get some bikes in hand then. Worked at endless sphere, granted the Sondors supporters weren't shut out there (I am in no way granting any of the vehement supporters a pass for their conduct in general), but hearing a one-sided argument here is getting kind of old.

Anyone is welcome to post positive information about the Sondors campaign as well. There's no reason for it to be one sided.

The posts that some are complaining about are informative, interesting, and relevant. I'm totally ready to have the same quality of post taking the other side. It will make the forum even more interesting, as long as everyone behaves in a respectful manner.

 

[flymeaway]

Sondors says some bikes are clearing customs, we shouldn't have too long to see how many, how good and how close to original spec (whatever that was)

FYI....containers on-board and en-route are routinely cleared for entry by customs prior to the ship reaching port. It's an efficiency thing.....as long as the documents including the ISF is in order it's a formality. The only possible issue would be a customs inspection of the contents. Inspections are fairly rare unless there is a reason to question the manifest. If a container is inspected it can delay processing it for several weeks.

I hope people start receiving bikes, soon, the anticipation of their comments about the bikes is "killing me"

Court J.

 

[jazz]

I'll go to the other side for one post. Sonders Bikes are Awesome! They are affordable, look great, hip cool fat tire design, come in a wide array of awesome colors, last up to 50 miles, fully charge in 1.5 hours and have a cool 30-day warranty.