Sondors Fact Finding. Due Diligence. Scrutiny.
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pxpaulx
Well-Known Member
I have to say I agree with this sentiment - although there has been decidedly less of the 'sondors opposition' posts over the last few days (and more discussions about the thread itself, as we are having now, which is good too). The only people that for the most part are in this thread are the few that continue to repeat the same points against the sondors campaign, and how to get your money back, and those of us that are somewhere in the middle and tend to share a view of hoping the campaign resolves positively for those who contributed first and foremost. Those few that are vehement supporters you do have to concede can't seem to control themselves from acting inappropriately in their tone and demeanor towards others, however I do believe there are probably lurkers that are also afraid to engage in any honest discussion about the sondors bike itself, and not necessarily the parties involved.
stevenast
Well-Known Member
The Sondors campaign is high profile. He has not been very forthcoming. He has been sued. Quite a few people have contributed money. These are legitimate topics for lots of conversation.
Everybody is hungry for news of this campaign. When the big news is a molded piece of plastic, or trying to analyze a photo taken in a factory, it's definitely something to talk about.
I have no idea if people can get refunds, but if I had put money on one of these bikes and it was possible, I would sure want a refund.
Therefore, I appreciate efforts to inform people of ways they might get a refund, as long as the posts do not become overly tedious.
@JayVee used the term "monologue". I completely agree that's not good. What would be appropriate would be to have a courteous, respectful dialogue.
The Sondors campaign is controversial, and hence fun to dissect. Please keep posting updates, factory photos, law suit information, etc...
Everybody is hungry for news of this campaign. When the big news is a molded piece of plastic, or trying to analyze a photo taken in a factory, it's definitely something to talk about.
I have no idea if people can get refunds, but if I had put money on one of these bikes and it was possible, I would sure want a refund.
Therefore, I appreciate efforts to inform people of ways they might get a refund, as long as the posts do not become overly tedious.
@JayVee used the term "monologue". I completely agree that's not good. What would be appropriate would be to have a courteous, respectful dialogue.
The Sondors campaign is controversial, and hence fun to dissect. Please keep posting updates, factory photos, law suit information, etc...
A
Anomander Rake
Guest
I can certainly understand the frustration and hatred against the INDIEGOGO campaign. Especially the Sondors one. The comment section was spammed by a blizzard of Sondor trolls who thought they could go to war against people who only wanted their questions and concerns addressed.
Indiegogo refuses all refunds, the Sondors team IE Greg Dawson refuses to address refunds and he avoids the subject like a plague.
I just saw the latest update and it shows tooling of the battery box..???????
I saw tooling of the same battery box a month or more ago, how much tooling is required for a couple of pieces of plastic?
Seems utterly stupid why indiegogo is still in business with fraudulent campaigns.
Indiegogo refuses all refunds, the Sondors team IE Greg Dawson refuses to address refunds and he avoids the subject like a plague.
I just saw the latest update and it shows tooling of the battery box..???????
I saw tooling of the same battery box a month or more ago, how much tooling is required for a couple of pieces of plastic?
Seems utterly stupid why indiegogo is still in business with fraudulent campaigns.
A
Anomander Rake
Guest
I agree with you. IF the Sondors team want to give some facts and reliable stats on their bike and all the claims they are making. But so for very few facts are being produced, just a blizzard of foggy statements, and we are supposed to accept all there claims to be true. Something is very wrong with this campaign.
I have also noticed the contributions slowing down drastically the last few days. And hardly any new orders coming in.
I helped with their campaign and I was told if I helped my shipping could possible be free, what happened to that?
This whole B/S scampaign is filled with ????????????
Nick Hull
New Member
I have taken part in a couple of Kickstarter like campaigns and I would say that the Sondors campaign has been the MOST forthcoming of all so far. I'm not part of the Sondors team, but I have invested and expect to receive a perk. What level of transparency would make you guys satisfied? And if you didn't contribute towards a bike perk then why do you care?
A
Anomander Rake
Guest
I have Contributed to the Sondors campaign and NICK you are correct on what you siad. They have sent alot of updates But those updates are confusing at the best of times. Take the latest update about tooling of the battery box YET again. First our bikes were to be delivered in MAY then shipped in may. Yes tons of Crowd funded campaigns have been excessively delayed but what finds me disturbed is people like Philip Hillis and Bruce Choating Spampaign against legitament questions and concerns on the comment section and the fog of the entire campaign. Too many questions and not enough answers. Then this whole fraud accusations against Ivars "Storm" Sondors. Very troubling. The more we find out the more problems I am having, I went from a lover of his product to asking for a refund.
This is definitely my absolute last crowd funded campaign. It is my fault I did not fully inform myself and if I knew then what I know now I would never have taken the risk of crowd funding whatsoever. Hate the whole system and the LAW should be looking at this very severely and possibly shut down some of them.
This is definitely my absolute last crowd funded campaign. It is my fault I did not fully inform myself and if I knew then what I know now I would never have taken the risk of crowd funding whatsoever. Hate the whole system and the LAW should be looking at this very severely and possibly shut down some of them.
PowerMe
Well-Known Member
Keep in mind that most of the fanboys who are spamming the the IGG threads to prevent questions from contributors are not on the books of the campaign -- in other words, they are just customers too. Why they think they own the campaign is curious, but legally, they do not. They have no ability to affect production, they are not running the campaign, they are not taking money out of the coffers, their names are not on the campaign documents in terms of who is responsible with IGG.
My advice is to ignore the fanboys altogether because they are not Sonders and can't speak for Sonders, and are not considered (by IGG) to be agents of or for Sonders.
That said, if you have a specific issue to address with Sonders, then go through official IGG channels and/or through whatever legal entity is associated with Sonders. If you are trying to get a refund or something financial, work with your credit card company or whoever you used on the purchase.
As for lack of good information...it does suck, but other than wait and see, what other choice does one have? Whatever you do, don't go to anyone who is not legally associated with the campaign because they cannot do anything for you and will only cause confusion and frustration along the way.
My advice is to ignore the fanboys altogether because they are not Sonders and can't speak for Sonders, and are not considered (by IGG) to be agents of or for Sonders.
That said, if you have a specific issue to address with Sonders, then go through official IGG channels and/or through whatever legal entity is associated with Sonders. If you are trying to get a refund or something financial, work with your credit card company or whoever you used on the purchase.
As for lack of good information...it does suck, but other than wait and see, what other choice does one have? Whatever you do, don't go to anyone who is not legally associated with the campaign because they cannot do anything for you and will only cause confusion and frustration along the way.
stevenast
Well-Known Member
I didn't contribute and I care because I think there is a possibility of a big injustice here. The campaign is bigger than one person's contribution versus whether they get their "perk". It affects the e-bike market, it affects the crowdfunding space. It's actually a fairly big story.
Nick Hull
New Member
Well May isn't over yet. Shipping in May would be nice, but if it doesn't happen this month then I won't be surprised. It's interesting how the campaign is nit-picked. Tooling of the battery box? If you understood injection molding then you would understand what the tooling is for. It's to make the mold, not to make the battery box itself. It's basically the part that the plastic is injected into. You need to make that first and it is a multi-step process. The photos I saw were of a partially CNC'd mold, and at a later time a white test panel piece, then a completed side panel in yellow. Looks good to me There are 2 other pieces required to complete it I guess.
As for being confusing - I can understand that some will be more confused than others. Certain things were presented incorrectly and have been corrected. This is crowd funding, not WalMart. Things change as the product is developed. If you have a completed product then you probably don't need crowd funding. I would love to see photos of completed bikes, but there is still over a week of May left - and heck if I see it a photo in early June I'd still be happy.
It's interesting that one of the responses jumps on 'refunds' why would I want a refund? That's a very negative view. If I see a bike this year, and it works, I'd still be happy. I'd be really happy if it all happens sooner, but - again - this isn't 'buying from a store'. No risk no reward I'd say
There are 2 other pieces required to complete it I guess.As for being confusing - I can understand that some will be more confused than others. Certain things were presented incorrectly and have been corrected. This is crowd funding, not WalMart. Things change as the product is developed. If you have a completed product then you probably don't need crowd funding. I would love to see photos of completed bikes, but there is still over a week of May left - and heck if I see it a photo in early June I'd still be happy.
It's interesting that one of the responses jumps on 'refunds' why would I want a refund? That's a very negative view. If I see a bike this year, and it works, I'd still be happy. I'd be really happy if it all happens sooner, but - again - this isn't 'buying from a store'. No risk no reward I'd say
FTC Complaint
Active Member
Just the opposite, "Crowdfunding" only makes sense if you have a completed product; in most cases, a few hundred thousand dollars (in projected goss margin) will not be enough to cover product development and other capital costs (a recent coffee maker and a thin watch).
Even the superfluous, but unique, Sondors yellow-blue plastic box must be $10's of thousands for tooling. No tooling, engineering, or jigs are really needed for a comparable bike to be built, he is doing custom work of his own volition and for no reason whatsoever.
The bike is really an "arbitrage play" between an existing Chinese consumer product (with millions sold) and the much higher priced US and European counterpart-products.
Today, and in the opposite direction, name-brand luxury goods are being "arbitraged" from the US/Europe to China. eg. Cigarettes or Liquor. "Luxury" consumer products for sale in the domestic Chinese market are higher priced, but they are exactly the same as the identical-luxury-branded product "to be sold only in" US or Europe. The arbitrage in this case works up until the customs agent steps in and confiscates the gray market goods at the port of entry.
There are reasons "why" a difference in price exists between e:bikes for sale in the Chinese and US markets, respectively. Those "market specific elements" present as the shortfall in the Sondors offering, and they were not considered in the business plan because they are costly to provide. Differentials to one-price.
That is why the product will be incomplete even if delivered.
The arbitrage in the Sondors case works up to the point he has to pay 23% gross sales for marketing, legal fees, product liability insurance, sales tax, testing, battery certification, product support and all the other elements that differentiate US and Chinese markets.
To some extent, Sondors admits this as being the case in his legal response to the lawsuit. If you don't believe me, read it for yourself as he said in paraphrase, "if I pay Agency 2.0 then I might not be able to provide everyone with a bike."
He has either not considered all the business elements he missed, or he is just not concerned with them. I think he is a smart fellow; see Toyjobs, he has been around the block and knows what he is doing. He is a care-free surfer dude kind of guy.
Rad Rover, Pedego, and Big Cat are arbitraging too, but they are all adding value so the product will better conform to the US marketplace, and thus they are adding cost in the process. The margins on ebikes are not that great as one would expect.
The "Crowdfunding" part of the equation is just a marketing pitch. The structure of crowdfunding, also financial, is just a way to give the short end of the stick to the consumer.
The story is really one of finance, labor, and consumer goods arbitrage.
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Ann M.
Well-Known Member
Just curious, @FTC Complaint why you include ProdecoTech in your list; they are not crowdfunding, they have a production plant in Florida, unlike Sonders, Rad Rover & Big Cat. They do not import whole product and drop ship it. Please explain.
FTC Complaint
Active Member
Yes, I should have posted Pedego {corrected and thanks} (which I understand to be importing bikes, doing US domestic QA, and domestic retail partially through franchises (and thus providing full service support)). I am not sure if Prodeco imports (domestic or foreign) parts and then assembles them here (or a mix of the two)
My main-point applies to almost every OEM bike importer, manufacturer and retailer. There is a whole cost structure associated with doing business in US market that is totally irrelevant to/in the Chinese market.
Sondors did not consider those costs; and when you factor them in 1) margins are not excessive 2) there is not much of, if any, an arbitrage opportunity
I view the crowdfunding to be totally irrelevant, other than being an expensive (and intentionally over-complex and intentionally-confusing) mass marketing channel that puts the consumer at a disadvantage from the get-go.
Here is a prime example of what I am talking about; from Pedego ( a good company doing things correctly) , which shows how the Storm bike is dangerously incomplete;
As part of our continuous product testing and improvement process, Pedego Electric Bikes, Inc. has identified that some batteries from a specific supplier can have the potential to short out. If you have purchased a bike or battery, please go through this recall process to determine if your battery is part of the recall OR bring your battery to your local Pedego dealer for assistance with the recall process.
What happens when this type of battery shorts?
What happens when a Storm battery needs a recall? Has the bike and battery even been tested? What happens if the bike has a short or problem? Who keeps records? Who has insurance? Who do you sue? How does it get replaced? Huge list...
Attachments
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JRA
Well-Known Member
Usually when a header is applied to a thread it can be assumed that the content within will reflect its stated purpose.
Fact Finding
The discovery and establishment of the facts of an issue.
Due Diligence
A comprehensive appraisal of a business undertaken by a prospective buyer, especially to establish its assets and liabilities and evaluate its commercial potential.
Scrutiny
Critical observation or examination.
Admittedly there has been much repetitive content in the 48 pages so far but once in awhile there are some found facts, due diligence and lots of scrutiny. So I fail to see why it should be abandoned if everyone can just play nice. When you post with more of an argumentative tone you are probably going to get a response that is also argumentative and what needs to stop.
As a for instance from my personal viewpoint after reading Mr. Hulls comment that includes "Certain things were presented incorrectly and have been corrected." While there have been some corrections on the IGG story site there are still to my mind misleading inaccuracies pertaining to the performance figures that have been there from the beginning that have been repeated ad nauseum and never corrected to my satisfaction and feel may have lasting effects on the perception of e bikes going forward.
Although I have been aware of the campaign since before it hit Igg I am not and never planned on being a funder of the campaign and have no problem with Mr. Hull and funders thinking that oh well, if it doesn't perform as advertised or get delivered when advertised then I am still getting a screaming deal on a bike and I am ok with that so why shouldn't you be? But false and misleading advertising in for profit business advertising has always bugged me and so I have made some comments about my concerns based on my knowledge and experience with e bikes and their systems gathered over the last 15 years. Which I am entitled to do under the 1st Ammendent and the Fact Finding and Scrutiny headers above. As well as Mr. Hull and all others can post their views based on their experience or expectations but hopefully in a factual, non argumentative manner.
And in between the two sides there always seems to be those that feel that they must take the high ground and start bashing both sides. This has little effect because in its own way it is still argumentative. To those I would suggest just not entering the thread or using the ignore option more.
I have been involved with forums for years and have never seen a fight won yet, but plenty of hard feelings on both sides unfortunately.
Fact Finding
The discovery and establishment of the facts of an issue.
Due Diligence
A comprehensive appraisal of a business undertaken by a prospective buyer, especially to establish its assets and liabilities and evaluate its commercial potential.
Scrutiny
Critical observation or examination.
Admittedly there has been much repetitive content in the 48 pages so far but once in awhile there are some found facts, due diligence and lots of scrutiny. So I fail to see why it should be abandoned if everyone can just play nice. When you post with more of an argumentative tone you are probably going to get a response that is also argumentative and what needs to stop.
As a for instance from my personal viewpoint after reading Mr. Hulls comment that includes "Certain things were presented incorrectly and have been corrected." While there have been some corrections on the IGG story site there are still to my mind misleading inaccuracies pertaining to the performance figures that have been there from the beginning that have been repeated ad nauseum and never corrected to my satisfaction and feel may have lasting effects on the perception of e bikes going forward.
Although I have been aware of the campaign since before it hit Igg I am not and never planned on being a funder of the campaign and have no problem with Mr. Hull and funders thinking that oh well, if it doesn't perform as advertised or get delivered when advertised then I am still getting a screaming deal on a bike and I am ok with that so why shouldn't you be? But false and misleading advertising in for profit business advertising has always bugged me and so I have made some comments about my concerns based on my knowledge and experience with e bikes and their systems gathered over the last 15 years. Which I am entitled to do under the 1st Ammendent and the Fact Finding and Scrutiny headers above. As well as Mr. Hull and all others can post their views based on their experience or expectations but hopefully in a factual, non argumentative manner.
And in between the two sides there always seems to be those that feel that they must take the high ground and start bashing both sides. This has little effect because in its own way it is still argumentative. To those I would suggest just not entering the thread or using the ignore option more.
I have been involved with forums for years and have never seen a fight won yet, but plenty of hard feelings on both sides unfortunately.
wa5
Well-Known Member
One puts you one an FBI watch list, Nick, one doesn't.
I was only trying to help people, save them from investing in something where they may not have been aware of some serious short comings in the campaign, Mine was never a personal vendetta against Storm / ivars, or the funders... I want Sondors to deliver the bikes, I want funders to get them. But I don't want to see potential funders lose out when posting up a simple link to c/f Insider might avoid that happening.
I was only trying to help people, save them from investing in something where they may not have been aware of some serious short comings in the campaign, Mine was never a personal vendetta against Storm / ivars, or the funders... I want Sondors to deliver the bikes, I want funders to get them. But I don't want to see potential funders lose out when posting up a simple link to c/f Insider might avoid that happening.
wa5
Well-Known Member
Nice that this has been cleared up, Storms IGG page representative has confirmed that refunds are available for all who desire them. so that's nice.He really doesn't like me very much.
I hope that reprinting his statement all over the internet doesn't cause too much work for Storms PR guy
.
Credible Hulk
Active Member
View attachment 3118 Nice that this has been cleared up, Storms IGG page representative has confirmed that refunds are available for all who desire them. so that's nice.
He really doesn't like me very much.
I hope that reprinting his statement all over the internet doesn't cause too much work for Storms PR guy
Thank you for posting this. I have yet to receive any replies to the refund request letter I sent to both IGG and GoSondors. This screenshot will be an excellent rubuttal, should they reply with their "no refunds" policy.
I've noted a few people stating that it's wrong to say anything negative about the Sondors. For example, Chris Roser's accusations towards anyone who posts anything negative on the IGG board. The correct term for written statements is libel, not slander. Secondly, stating the truth, or what you reasonably believe to be the truth based on factual evidence, is neither libel nor slander. For example, we can mention the 2008 Toyjobs fraud judgement as fact because this court judgement is a matter of public record. You can't be sued for stating facts, as long as there's a purpose to your statement and it's not made strictly for malicious purposes (i.e. mentioning the Toyjobs judgment in regards to concerns about the likelihood of Ivars paying his vendors for the Sondors e-bike).
What's wrong with negative posts, as long as they fall within the bounds of netiquette? I've seen a lot of online accusations that those who don't support Sondors are some sort of heretics. There's a difference between having an adult conversation and trying to shut people down by trolling, name-calling and other underhanded tactics. I believe that there's no crime in stating negative views or facts as long as it's done respectfully. The exact same goes for positive posts about Sondors. I hope that will continue on this board as well, and that people won't be muzzled simply for their views, as has happened on other websites about the Sondors.
wa5
Well-Known Member
Heres Chris' second post. for some reason I'm having trouble putting up the screen shot. will try again later.
Chris Roser
1 hour ago
My Boss? I’m just a 2 Bike backer. No affiliation with the campaign. I was told that refunds were being issued on a case by case basis. “Life Happens” You’d have to email the campaign for further clarification but that’s not like you. Better to just spread hate and discontent. Make that 200 US green ones.
Chris Roser
1 hour ago
My Boss? I’m just a 2 Bike backer. No affiliation with the campaign. I was told that refunds were being issued on a case by case basis. “Life Happens” You’d have to email the campaign for further clarification but that’s not like you. Better to just spread hate and discontent. Make that 200 US green ones.
Chris Roser
New Member
Theodore Voltaire
2 hours ago
Chris, I’m sure you are aware that some people have been having trouble organising refunds, I’ve just taken the liberty of posting in all the usual places to advise them of this wonderful new policy (or clarification thereof). of course I gave you full credit. and took a screen shot of the post incase anybody gets a little forgetful. kudos to you Chris, you’ve made some anxious people very happy, and on a personal note, I think the campaign benefits from such an open generous policy. T.
2 hours ago
Chris, I’m sure you are aware that some people have been having trouble organising refunds, I’ve just taken the liberty of posting in all the usual places to advise them of this wonderful new policy (or clarification thereof). of course I gave you full credit. and took a screen shot of the post incase anybody gets a little forgetful. kudos to you Chris, you’ve made some anxious people very happy, and on a personal note, I think the campaign benefits from such an open generous policy. T.
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