Sondors Fact Finding. Due Diligence. Scrutiny.

[FTC Complaint]

I was just reading up on radrover: they are showing bikes in production, giving specs, answering questions ... what a difference, a professionally run campaign vs ....this

The Rad Rover looks 100% better from a business and technical perspective., as a bike and as a campaign; the only question I would have relates to product liability insurance. (it is still a basic bike). Here are some key elements missing from Sondors;

-- we have a full time customer support phone line and email where your technical support questions will be answered same day. <-key elment

--"We have already gone through the HazMat and Dangerous goods shipping certification processes are up to date on the most recent regulations and compliance requirements." 7 year history of the same.. <-key element

--Rad Power Bikes has been a design/build/maintain full service ebike brand since its inception in 2007. <--key element

--Shimano Parts and Kenda tires

--Charge time is correct 4-6 hours at a safe 2amp level <--as not to have fires explosions!

--They seem to be aware of variability to law (Wikipedia is a dangerous source for law) Users should take extra care ensuring that they operate within the law and check their local regulations on peak power

--production ready electric bike meaning there are no engineering, design, testing, or manufacturing

--one year all-inclusive warranty for the original owner against all manufacturing defects

--Sans the yellow box; 48v better motor, aluminum frame, gearing etc, better cells, 6061 better frame!

--lockout fork <--- generally, this is an exposure-danger both for braking and potential failure

--Team of people <-Key Key

--Local pickup is free and highly recommended, <Key - as they have a facility! to manage operations

--Variable shipping rates, not shipping as a profit center (and a sondors lie)

--you should confirm that we can ship to your destination prior to order placement. There are strict regulations on the shipment of packages containing lithium batteries and some countries do not except such shipments. <---How many Sondors bikes cannot be shipped!, or will have VAT or Duty etc

--We will be sending around an "Un-boxing and Steps Before Your First Ride" video before bikes start to arrive! <-Post Sale Necessity

--Some questions about the controller and also the pedal sensor torque vs Pedelec - Torque is safer and wont be triggered by a back-pedal

--Campaign is answering questions and posting updates (and not letting the "end user" manage the campaign)

--Proper frame testing per CPSC - unknown, doubt they did it

--They know the exact specs of the bike! what it can and cannot do! Essential for costing, third party parts, and support

--Issue getting an independent bike shop to support the product; I bet you could ship it back to RR if you had extreme issues as they have a history and a facility.

--"we will be sending our FORTH run of RadRovers off to production! If you purchased your bike between" - They actually have production pictures with 10 bikes in a clean factory not a narrow shot of a vapor ware product. and they are organized. And they are phased, and don't have 10,000 bikes to deliver that were not costed (eg Storm never did per unit costing! because he did not define the product accurately, nor did he account for all his costs and lawsuit)

--"I met Mike and Marimar on Tuesday at the Seattle Electric Vehicle Association meeting and they were very helpful and knowledgeable. I had a long list of questions and they answered them all, in great detail" <--Expert Knowledge, responsibility, openness, and tone! vs Sondors


what a difference not perfect but what a difference

IMHo you would still be better off buying a higher quality bike w/o crowdfunding; but this is a 100% more legitimate approach and operation than Storm. (Including the loss-leader with the bike costing {my guess} about $500 wholesale)

If you don't want to see the difference you are blind. Some of the elements listed show, and provide proof, as to how incomplete-dangerous the Storm offering is in compare and contrast!

I have sent them a question regarding Product Liability insurance; lets see if I get an answer.

Demand a refund from Storm and IGG folks; before it is too late.

I did not realize it but the costly insurance option on IGG is gone!

 

[EULITTLB]

REPORTS suggest that the first wave of bikes has been pushed back to August 2015 and the second wave to October 2015 - these are unconfirmed reports but there seems to be some substance to them ( source bike.4.all)

 

[JoePah]

Looks like Sondors is holding his original schedule for shipping in May.. Unlike so many other failed eBiketailers, Sondors is good for his word.

10 days ago
Hi Sondors eBike Backers!

Today is a good day as 100% of all components are in production and we are on track to ship this month. What does this mean? It means that the batteries, motors, battery boxes, handgrips, battery charger display, etc. are all in production and will be sent to one location for the production team to assemble and package.

 

[EULITTLB]

Joepah estimated delivery was may rumour is as I guesstimated delivery of wave 1 in august

 

[FTC Complaint]

Unlike so many other failed eBiketailers, Sondors is good for his word.

I listed twenty three objective points about the Rad-Rover; to include five negative points. These points apply to Sondors equally as well as they apply to Rad Rover. We have to assume bikes will be delivered;

Rad scores 18/23 to these elements of completeness - 78% or a C
Storm scores 1/23 to these elements of completeness -4% or an F

Rad- OK but not great
Storm - Did not consider anything in his approach but marketing

Product Liability Insurance - I consider this to be a key element, lacking and the bike is incomplete; it would cost RR about $20,000 to $40,000 to provide it to Storms $270,000. I have a question out to RR, lets see if they answer it.

Yes you can add other clear and subjective elements, such as lawsuit or mid-drive, I don't think you are going to alter the analysis too much. This kind of approach provides a very factual and objective analysis, rather than an emotional one where we have to keep the faith, or rely on he said she said, or drown out critical thinking on the IGG board.

 

[scmike]

FTC,
RR's 78% that's a C+... Darn, but I ordered 2 anyway... I tried communicating with an Alibaba bike vendor but I gave up... I thought the translation was incomplete at best.... The RR bike specs were close to what I would have ordered had I tried to direct order... And I wouldn't have expected much support from Alibaba... The RR team answered every ? I had with a personal email promptly... I will have quite a wait, July 6 estimated... but I'm okay with that. I believe the namesake founder, Mike Radenbaugh, has the background to pull this off.. which is basically a group buy, broken down
in manageable 40-60 bike production runs... Their updates are frequent, informative, and they don't need to travel to China to create them... Liability insurance... FTC is right maybe they have some, that should bump the up to a B- at least...??

 

[FTC Complaint]

FTC,
RR's 78% that's a C+... Darn, but I ordered 2 anyway... I tried communicating with an Alibaba bike vendor but I gave up... I thought the translation was incomplete at best.... The RR bike specs were close to what I would have ordered had I tried to direct order... And I wouldn't have expected much support from Alibaba... The RR team answered every ? I had with a personal email promptly... I will have quite a wait, July 6 estimated... but I'm okay with that. I believe the namesake founder, Mike Radenbaugh, has the background to pull this off.. which is basically a group buy, broken down
in manageable 40-60 bike production runs... Their updates are frequent, informative, and they don't need to travel to China to create them... Liability insurance... FTC is right maybe they have some, that should bump the up to a B- at least...??

I think the RR bike is better than "Big Cat Fat Bike" (and they have $5 million dollars in product liability insurance), the companies are doing the same type of thing. RR and Big Cat have similar a business approach.

It costs BC about the same 10% that it costs RR to market the bike to the consumer even though they are not crowd-funding. The Big Cat FC can be had for around $1,000 off season or if you shop around; http://www.amazon.com/Big-Cat-Electric-Bikes-Terrain/dp/B00O68O08A

The RR blows the storm offering out of the water, and it is much more bike for the money than BCFC. BC talks about damage to the frame/fork under hard use, and the motor is in the front on an aluminum frame so they cannot have the same wattage as RR, both MAJOR negatives. Without product liability insurance the product is an I, Incomplete, so RR needs to clarify. The RR and BCFC are in the low-end same cost range and class which is really entry level "C" at best.

Why is the front fork so important; You NEVER want a fork on a bike to fail carbon, aluminum, (or even steel), or because of a motor, or because it has a built in shock. With RR they have a questionable fork (in that I would ask more questions about it, eg is it tested), with BCFC they are telling you not to abuse the bike so you don't have a fork problem, not good.. If a front fork fails it tends to create a very dangerous (most dangerous) type of accident.

Either the RR or Big Cat is better and much less risky than a direct Alibaba buy; although i have contacts at several motor manufacturers (and can get great motors from Bafang directly with a wire transfer). Liability insurance and comoditization are just two of the reasons that stopped me from selling the Bafang motors directly to consumers. I did not see enough margin to justify the risk after considering all costs; and then looking at lesser products sold on ebay that leak into the country. (Storm is a leakage story really, where he saw a price difference to arbitrage and then was not concerned as to why that price difference existed)

The RR is not in the same league as a Felt Lebowski, but then again it does not cost $6000. I think value per dollar is more important than dollar spent. Building your own ebike is a way to get good value at the lower price points. If your choice was between RR and Storm or RR and FC, you made the better decision with RR.

RR is answering questions which is telling.

If you bought a Storm ask for a refund.

 

[George S.]

Well, if I build a kit it's unlikely I will get any liability insurance because I have made too many decisions. When sport aviation got expensive, everything moved to kits and everyone sat around saying how much they hated lawyers. Liabilility expenses make an engine sold for a snowmobile cost 10% what the same engine costs for a sport aircraft, that sort of thing.

I feel we are over-regulated and that liability costs are too high. All you do is drive people to other means, like building kits. Adding $200 to a Rad Rover is not realistic. It's not where they work, in the marketplace.

Accel has a huge market share, huge markups, plays all kinds of games. At what point does the FTC, the real one, go after them? Pretty soon, I hope. Your focus is too narrow. People will not follow you, because you guide them over a cliff. If I have to build a bike to avoid this, I will.

 

[pxpaulx]

Those $5k fat bikes are a slim slim market in the US. You could but a very nice name brand fat bike, go with one of the bafang conversions for a grand and a decent battery and still be under $4k easily. The new prodeco isn't to bad looking either.

Cheapest you could build yourself would be a bikes direct gravity for $500 (ok you could get a Walmart Mongoose for 250) and em3ev kit for another $1200; any cheaper than that would be a true part by part diy, not many that can do that.

That is what makes the radrover a good buy, you're getting a reputable business behind a completed electric fat bike for the cost of just the motor kit or a decent non electric bike. Just my two cents as a contributor and former potential fat electric builder!

 

[FTC Complaint]

. Adding $200 to a Rad Rover is not realistic.

Product liability insurance, would work out to about $30 a bike for RR, testing costs decline drastically per unit sold.

Sondors miscalculated his margins knowing nothing about the product, there is no provision to pay the advertising fees he agreed to, let alone product liability insurance, or battery testing.

I agree with the idea that regulation adds cost, creates barriers, and stifles competition; this is especially true in car manufacturing. I would rather have a car that costs 1/2 the price than a car that conforms to all required regulations, and thinks its a cell phone with wheels.

I don't think that is true as it relates to bicycles or ebikes. Many large bike companies have been born from garage type endevors. Go to a bike show and see how competitive the landscape is, look at the many ebike startup companies.

The CPSC is not going to step in before an injury, which is why manufacturers need to do independent testing and carry liability insurance. Independent testing and insurance are cheap expenses compared to the potential cost of a single injury due to negligence. Bikes are covered under strict liability doctrine which contributes to some frivolous litigation, this is another reason to carry insurance as a going concern.

For $1300 you can have a great 48v homemade ebike; depending on your skills you can have an epic battery, bafang motor BMP/CST motor, a safe frame, solid brakes and other components. Unlike airplane kits, you are taking personal responsibility for self alone.

There are many small reputable bike and ebike companies that test their product and carry insurance.

 

[FTC Complaint]

And Rad Power, as a legitimate going concern, responds to a question that Storm refuses to answer regarding "product liability insurance;"

Actually, and unlike Sondors, they respond to any legitimate questions; and do so in a professional, accurate, and complete way as to address the concern. "upgrade to B, an entry level ebike."

 

[scmike]

And Rad Power, as a legitimate going concern, responds to a question that Storm refuses to answer regarding "product liability insurance;"

View attachment 3049

Actually, and unlike Sondors, they respond to any legitimate questions; and do so in a professional, accurate, and complete way as to address the concern. "upgrade to B, an entry level ebike."

FTC,
That's my guy, how did you get that response? Regarding proof of LI, I don't need it but if its not confidential... I'm sure they can provide it. Depends on who's asking...
M

 

[FTC Complaint]

LMAO that is your proof. Lets see a copy of the insurance policy. Then you can make statements like that. Them saying so is not proof.

FTC,
That's my guy, how did you get that response? Regarding proof of LI, I don't need it but if its not confidential... I'm sure they can provide it. Depends on who's asking...
M

I just took a screen print of an email response to my question, a prominent member of the press was copied both with the question and the response. I am quite sure that Rad has product liability insurance, I don't know how much, it could be $1 million (or it could be greater as in $5m for BC which they needed to sell via retail store websites).

I am sure every retailer Court visits in his reviews, has a layer of insurance; as well as most of the manufactures he reviews small and large.

I would assume good faith, unless of course the fellow has a prior conviction for civil fraud (eg. I Sondors). I would even assume good faith up to the point he was sued for alleged civil fraud by a vendor for non-payment in the middle his own very prominently known crowd-funding still underway (see Sondors and Agency 2.0). It being a matter of common sense, I would not wait for a conviction or settlement, at that point I was assume a clear pattern of fraud and/or irresponsibility towards others existed.

If I bought an ebike from Sondors, I would not defend the indefensible on a chat-board, I would ask for a refund. I would not get angry about fact, I would take corrective action by asking for a refund.

Questioning, and compare and contrasting, are rational ways to find the truth. It is not a question of like or dislike, it just "is."

BTW, this was a question asked of Sondors on multiple occasions with no response other than stonewalling.

 

[PowerMe]

The correct response is to either continue to take the risk, which is what ALL crowdfunding projects are, to be fair, or ask for a refund. There's nothing wrong with deciding to take a risk, even with 'updated' specs that are not as good as original specs.

I do think it's wrong to blame people or make fun of people for wanting to or joining this campaign. The responsibility lies totally with IGG and the campaign founder for any errors or omissions. Further, just because someone doesn't choose to take the path of asking for a refund doesn't mean they are wrong either. These are all the choices available and everyone has to decide the best choice for themselves.

Everyone who contributes to a campaign is over the age of legal consent. Why continue to treat them as if they are minor children who need protecting? It was stated that the goal was to make people aware of the problems and shortfalls in the specs of this eBike. That's been done a thousand times over. They know. And what they do with that information is their choice!

 

[EULITTLB]

The correct response is to either continue to take the risk, which is what ALL crowdfunding projects are, to be fair, or ask for a refund. There's nothing wrong with deciding to take a risk, even with 'updated' specs that are not as good as original specs.

I do think it's wrong to blame people or make fun of people for wanting to or joining this campaign. The responsibility lies totally with IGG and the campaign founder for any errors or omissions. Further, just because someone doesn't choose to take the path of asking for a refund doesn't mean they are wrong either. These are all the choices available and everyone has to decide the best choice for themselves.

Everyone who contributes to a campaign is over the age of legal consent. Why continue to treat them as if they are minor children who need protecting?

When they act like children and conduct themselves like children I will treat them like children. Why doI have to put up with this abuse all of the time? Happy to discuss, but when they don't have the answers they resort to personal abuse. I don't think EU funders realise that there is a £600 ($900) loading on cheapy Chinese ebike imports either.......

 

[EULITTLB]

Do not need a refund or counselling. However most of you might want to look into it. 3 months slandering a bike. 3 months trolling everywhere you could. 3 months for what???

Fact is the bike will be delivered

Fact the bike will go 23 miles on a single charge.

Fact the campaign has been upfront and posted many more updates than 90% of all other IGG or Kickstarter campaigns.

Fact all questions have been responded to. The fact that you did not like the response has no bearing on the campaign.

Fact most of you will still be here bitching and complaining long after the bikes have been delivered and reviewed.


Fact ian DIS grace is just that a BIG DISGRACE to his country his wife his family. Sorry but he has done this multiple times in the past. Seek help fellow UK member

Was that a yes or no to the question? Do you know there is a £600 loading on each bike? Yes or no.

The bike will not go 23 miles in practical use - that was done on the flat with a lightweight rider at 11mph, see what you get in everyday use - 15 miles I guesstimate.

The battery will not charge in 90 minutes.

There is no warranty or support.

The bike in its present spec is illegal for road use in the EU.

There needs to be reflectors, fenders (unsure?), a bell and a 250W motor with a cut-out at 15.6mph

Now come on, yes or no big man? @RedDwarf that means you, forget the personal attacks - yes or no were you aware of the additional £600 charges per bike?

 

[PowerMe]

Fact most of you will still be here bitching and complaining long after the bikes have been delivered and reviewed.

Most? Wrong. A few, yes.

Most of us on EBR are not invested either literally or emotionally in this campaign and are merely watching and commenting as it goes.

I have my new eBike and am not in the target market for this one. I'm probably the most fair person looking at this campaign as I can see the problems with it and at the same time I also see the strange obsession that's taken hold that kind of boggles the mind.

Here's my fair assessment: the bike may arrive. the bike may not arrive. the bike may arrive late. the bike may be awesome. the bike may be 'meh.' the bike may suck. time will ultimately tell. Anyone who claims otherwise is merely guessing and posturing. The future awaits.

 

[George S.]

You said it would cost RR $40,000 to buy insurance. They've sold something like 220 bikes. I just did the math, came in around $200. If you say $35, give me the new math, if you like.

I looked around for numbers, but everyone is biased. There is general agreement that US liability costs are many times more expensive than our competitors in the world. We know, roughly, what it costs in medical care. A lot. It completely distorts medical care.

The local lawyers run an ad saying people who hire lawyers, for auto accidents, get 2 1/2 more. Yeah, and if everyone hired a lawyer, insurance premiums would increase by 2.5 times, as well.

You can't convince me our liability laws work. You can say we need standards, but what are the costs? People should have experiences in life, not pay high insurance premiums, which I do. And not sit on juries for stupid civil actions for liability, which I have. Liability law does not drive product safety, by itself. There are other things that can be done. Why are liability costs lower in Europe? A lot lower.

Much of what you have said about the Sondors bike is not supported by the facts, because the facts have not been determined.

Big corporations are more dangerous, to me, than some guy making a few bikes, at least if he knows what he is doing. Everything isn't safe. You like the threat of lawsuits. I like honest people with a Christian, ethical sense of duty to others.

Are you making the case that Accel is not acting in restraint of trade, or not?

Do you ever like ride a bike, have fun, come over here and tell people about it?

You don't have the answers.

 

[EULITTLB]

Most? Wrong. A few, yes.

Most of us on EBR are not invested either literally or emotionally in this campaign and are merely watching and commenting as it goes.

I have my new eBike and am not in the target market for this one. I'm probably the most fair person looking at this campaign as I can see the problems with it and at the same time I also see the strange obsession that's taken hold that kind of boggles the mind.

Here's my fair assessment: the bike may arrive. the bike may not arrive. the bike may arrive late. the bike may be awesome. the bike may be 'meh.' the bike may suck. time will ultimately tell. Anyone who claims otherwise is merely guessing and posturing. The future awaits.

The perks were updated to estimated delivery October 2015 this morning (was ed August 2015) - unconfirmed reports suggest that wave 1 has been delayed to August 2015 as I guesstimated. I am not guessing and posturing that the bike will not perform as stated, will you give me that much - or do you believe the 90 min battery charge time or 50 mile range (later updated to 50 mile range with pedal assist) which Sondors tested at 23 miles and 700 yards with level 2 pedal assist = 23.7 miles lol?

 

[EULITTLB]

OMG now you and your fellow trolls are making stuff up. No where does it say anything about a delay till August. Let me guess your hedging your bet here in the hopes that is is delayed then you can say you called it 1st????

Lets stick with facts shall we and stop making stuff up.

Check the IGG page, now showing October 2015 estimated delivery? - am I making this up. Answer the question!!!