Sondors Fact Finding. Due Diligence. Scrutiny.

[pxpaulx]

@pxpaulx - I don't believe I have been patronising, if I have come over that way I apologise - why is being a funder a back-handed insult given that my FB page is designed to help and inform the very people who have been misled due to no fault of their own? Nowhere else in business would any Company get away with raising funds on the back of worthless and hollow "guarantees", false claims and wildly misleading specs. This is a discussion site surely, or should discussion on EBR be restricted to the merits of ebikes, groupsets, motor and tyres only? Given the interest in this ebike campaign which has delivered nothing to date but lies and has reneged on guarantees to funders, I think this is what EBR should be for personally.

Ian, I don't think it was anything too specific, nor do I think you were being patronizing in any specific way yesterday - the tone of a few posts was getting progressively worse and I got a little hot under the pads of my fingers. No harm no foul as far as I can see it, I'll go back to the popcorn gallery for now!

 

[stevenast]

he mess between Agency 2.0 and Sonders should only be a concern if it causes the campaign funders to not receive their bikes.

It will. Every dollar Sonders has to pay out elsewhere is not going to be available to go into the bikes. He's not going to be able to produce all the bikes he's promised, the money would be gone first.

 

[pxpaulx]

Lawsuits happen to take a long time as court dockets fill up with lots of people suing lots of other people/companies.

The mess between Agency 2.0 and Sonders should only be a concern if it causes the campaign funders to not receive their bikes. Otherwise... pfffftttt... I see tiny violins playing for Agency 2.0.

Yup, proceedings are not an overnight process! Who gives a crap what happens to the profits if the contributors get what they paid for...wait a minute, this isn't the popcorn gallery!

 

[stevenast]

wait a minute, this isn't the popcorn gallery

Lol, but this is the most active thread on the site ... the more the better!

So, question: are you suggesting the contributors are all going to get what they paid for?

 

[pxpaulx]

Lol, but this is the most active thread on the site ... the more the better!

So, question: are you suggesting the contributors are all going to get what they paid for?

An honest sentiment I promise, no double meaning intended. I mean, it might be a poorly thought out fat bike that is underpowered in both motor size and available watt hours (I said as much way back on Feb 19th: http://electricbikereview.com/community/threads/say-hello-to-storm.1228/page-14#post-13751,) but I am sure there are plenty of buyers who know full well that is what they are getting (I hope?).

 

[EULITTLB]

If I had done the work that Agency 2.0 had and had cheques bounced on me I would crucify Sondors in a Court - double-edged sword for me, Olenik lied to mislead people that he was I aware I was paid by Prodeco to damage the Campaign and was taking action so I would like to see him have something to ponder to reconsider his actions, on the other hand if funders are happy to deal/worship an individual who screws them with worthless shipping guarantees and screws an ad agency who did a fine job just so long as they get something which doesn't perform as stated, then so be it.

There are still imbeciles claiming that there may be shipping refunds and we have to wait until the bikes ship - yea right - to find out, even though the Sondors website categorically states the shipping cost is an inflated $194. For the life of me I cannot understand why they are defending the indefensible.

 

[EULITTLB]

Lawsuits happen to take a long time as court dockets fill up with lots of people suing lots of other people/companies.

The mess between Agency 2.0 and Sonders should only be a concern if it causes the campaign funders to not receive their bikes. Otherwise... pfffftttt... I see tiny violins playing for Agency 2.0.

The Contract between Agency 2.0 and Sondors on my reading appears to be fairly basic and limited, but payments were made and cheques were bounced and a contract did exist between the parties. What sort of gutless Justice system is it that cannot enforce payment? Seems incredible that the impression given is "Sorry Agency 2.0, you ain't getting anything more. Suffer it."

 

[stevenast]

How do you bounce checks when you have $5.7 million?

 

[EULITTLB]

I guess when you don't intent to pay the recipient who is legally entitled to those funds? So if a Campaign Owner shits on a firm pretty much solely responsible for a wildly successful IGG Campaign in terms of fundraising, contributors can rest easy in the knowledge that asides from a worthless shipping guarantee, shipping schedule and misleading claims, everything will be fine with the bike if it is ever delivered. scandalous!!

 

[Hurley]

I personally don't feel sorry for Agency 2.0. Because of their great job of false advertising-all the while knowing full well Sonders would not be able to fulfill the promises by a long shot, thousands of people contributed millions of dollars. Now they are crying foul, and shocked Sonders didn't even fulfill promises to them by a long shot. Sonders and Agency 2.0, a pair of liars sleeping together the night before, and bickering since the morning after. Meanwhile, the contributors are the ones who night after night--are being screwed...

 

[EULITTLB]

Agree, well some of the contributors are being screwed, not those self-professed bike experts who try and justify the silly claims that even a novice like me researched and saw through to encourage/reassure contributors who have pledged in good faith. I have been accused of being paid by Prodeco and if these guys aren't on some sort of freebie or favour from Sondors I would be surprised. They should be held accountable too, they should know better that the range, battery charge time are misleading and the worthless shipping guarantee is scandalous.

 

[stevenast]

Agency 2.0 specializes in promoting crowdfunded campaigns. They put a lot of work into it, they signed a contract to be paid, they deserve to be paid.

Look at their website, they have promoted some very worthy projects. I think if I was running a business like this I wouldn't go turning clients down.

Advertising agencies everywhere are known for inflating the truth, making the product seem better than it is, making it seem like something you can't live without!

They did their job, obviously very well. Crowdfunding campaigns are always a huge risk. For the business they are in, I think Agency 2.0 has acceptable ethics.

I feel certain that eventually a court will agree they should be paid. Whether the money can be squeezed out of Sondors is a whole other story!

 

[PowerMe]

Right now no contributor has been screwed. They might get screwed and not get a bike, or they might not and get a bike. The bike will probably be delivered later than anyone hopes, just like 80% of other CF campaigns who deliver their product/perk later than they originally promised. The bike may actually work, I mean, it's possible. It will never be the great bike like the ones that Court reviews here though.

What I've observed since the beginning is lots of hand waving and screeching, but exactly how many people and which contributors are currently "screwed?" Contributors are somehow envisioned as intellectually-challenged, developmentally-delayed children who need to be protected from themselves. Save them! Save them from themselves! They continue to hope! They think they're getting something!

There hasn't been a week in which criticism of this campaign and "Sonders = sleaze" and Agency 2.0 = corrupt advertising firm hasn't been the battle cry. The campaign hadn't even ended when the woe-is-me-and-woe-is-them started it's 2nd life.

Forget the bike itself. The very fact that this campaign even exists has so gotten under the skin that it doesn't matter what the product is -- whatever it is, it's bad, BAD, BAD! REALLY BAD! IT WON'T WORK! That SondersDude is a THIEF!

BUT that SondersDUDE doesn't have a full product protection/liability/warranty plan! That scoundrel! Just like a bunch of other campaigns on crowdfunding. Others say they have support -- have you seen that support? Others are running 2+ years late but that's okay. They're not SondersDude!

 

[stevenast]

Right now no contributor has been screwed. They might get screwed and not get a bike, or they might not and get a bike. The bike will probably be delivered later than anyone hopes, just like 80% of other CF campaigns who deliver their product/perk later than they originally promised. The bike may actually work, I mean, it's possible. It will never be the great bike like the ones that Court reviews here though.

What I've observed since the beginning is lots of hand waving and screeching, but exactly how many people and which contributors are currently "screwed?" Contributors are somehow envisioned as intellectually-challenged, developmentally-delayed children who need to be protected from themselves. Save them! Save them from themselves! They continue to hope! They think they're getting something!

There hasn't been a week in which criticism of this campaign and "Sonders = sleaze" and Agency 2.0 = corrupt advertising firm hasn't been the battle cry. The campaign hadn't even ended when the woe-is-me-and-woe-is-them started it's 2nd life.

Forget the bike itself. The very fact that this campaign even exists has so gotten under the skin that it doesn't matter what the product is -- whatever it is, it's bad, BAD, BAD! REALLY BAD! IT WON'T WORK! That SondersDude is a THIEF!

BUT that SondersDUDE doesn't have a full product protection/liability/warranty plan! That scoundrel! Just like a bunch of other campaigns on crowdfunding. Others say they have support -- have you seen that support? Others are running 2+ years late but that's okay. They're not SondersDude!

So are you saying that, even though Sondors does not pay his bills, bounces checks, lies, misses deadlines... we should cut him some slack because it's just a crowdsourced campaign?

 

[scmike]

PowerMe is right ... well sort of... Nothing has been proven... But that doesn't mean something bad hasn't already happened or is still happening... I'm surprised Court has shut down this thread... It's very entertaining though...
M

 

[Hurley]

The people are being screwed because they expected their bikes in May 2015! Clearly this is not going to happen. I personally did not know about crowd campaigns until now. In America I always assumed the laws protected us from this kind of stuff. I think most contributors believed they were protected as well. We were ignorant in how these campaigns work. If the website wasn't so difficult to deal with and the shipping was not high, I would have bought one myself. I would be very pissed about now because summer is coming and I was told I would have a bike right now.
If people knew they would not have a bike by May I bet half of them would not be in this campaign. They sold thousands of bikes based on lies and 2.0 must have known something was wrong. Sure, they did a outstanding job of deception but to 100% excuse their involvement is unacceptable in my book. And 2 or more wrongs don't make a right.

 

[EULITTLB]

Court hasn't shut down this thread.

a Campaign Owner has overall control of what is claimed for his product whether he employs an Agency or not.

My primary focus has been on the misleading claims made about this bike. I believe it is foolish to assume that everyone knows these figures are wildly exaggerated and inaccurate, Philip Hillis and Bruce Choate do not so why should anyone else?

 

[Brambor]

E - you're a good egg so please don't take this as anything but a cheeky observation:

All I can say is that if no one has hired you to discredit the Sondors campaign and if you are not in a business to discredit 'campaigns', then you have surely missed your calling in life. You can make a living doing this.

Court hasn't shut down this thread.

a Campaign Owner has overall control of what is claimed for his product whether he employs an Agency or not.

My primary focus has been on the misleading claims made about this bike. I believe it is foolish to assume that everyone knows these figures are wildly exaggerated and inaccurate, Philip Hillis and Bruce Choate do not so why should anyone else?

 

[FTC Complaint]

Right now no contributor has been screwed.

Every Contributor Has Been Screwed - Assume they get a bike; they are not getting post sales support, regulatory and safety testing, product liability insurance, and warranty. Nor are they going to get the product that was represented to them. In other words, they are buying an incomplete product. (and potentially dangerous one)

 

[EULITTLB]

E - you're a good egg so please don't take this as anything but a cheeky observation:

All I can say is that if no one has hired you to discredit the Sondors campaign and if you are not in a business to discredit 'campaigns', then you have surely missed your calling in life. You can make a living doing this.

Lol I always have been a determined kind of guy - this Campaign and the tactics of yours truly is like a red rag to a bull. Some claim they are ebike experts and because I am a novice in this industry (by way of inference) I should not be commenting on these misleading claims. I hope that in a small way my efforts will have made a difference, respect to Court & Ann for letting this thread run, Endless Sphere have locked the thread on their forum a few times. If Sondors had been honest and told the truth about the delivery schedule, the range, the charge time, pretty much everything then I would have had more respect for him; but he wouldn't have raised the funds he did - it goes to show what is more important to him for sure - there is another sting left to come in this sorry tale