Sondors Fact Finding. Due Diligence. Scrutiny.

[FTC Complaint]

I am not making assumptions about intelligence.
If you want to quantify your intelligence it can be done here, and reliably, for $4.99

http://www.highiqsociety.org/

If you get over a 124 they will send you a nice piece of paper.

1) To be kind, the majority of people that bought the Sondors bike on crowd-funding did not do research and therefore have made a mistake.
-Smart and dumb people make mistakes

2) Knowing you made a mistake, and being willing to correct a mistake is usually a sign of intelligence
-I see lots of denial
-I have also seen a few people ask for a refund

3) Being objective is usually a sign of intelligence
-Dumb people are reliant on Storm as the primary information provider
---the yahoo retraction was a major clue folks!, it provides an example of a very smart person being objective to an expanding factual landscape; the fellow also had guts and integrity
-I don't see very much objectivity with Sondor's purchasers
-I do see lots of confirmation bias

4) Inference, rationality - don't see much of it frankly

I don't care to personalize fact. If you bought a bike it is your personal responsibility to ask for a refund, as the campaign has not been honest and responsible to you.

Folks on IGG and Facebook have taken it upon themselves to fill a vacuum; that vacuum exists because Storm (as a deadbeat in a prior civil action for fraud, and a current lawsuit alleging fraud) is intentionally non-communicative. These folks are "truth blocking" and "rationalizing," as mentioned they are emotionally attached rather than factual.

This is all about fact, not emotion, and the facts are clear to anyone objective enough to see them.

 

[EULITTLB]

One of the most successful CF campaigns of all time is the Coolest Cooler on KS.. over $13M, over 60,000 units sold.. That Creator is simply amazing, and has made numerous changes.. Delivery is running months late, from a Feb ship date to July, maybe. CF eBikes have a far worse performance history.

Would not be surprised at all if Sondors ship date slips into June and first bikes delivered in July or August.

Sondors real challenge after he starts shipping is putting together a great assembly video.. Those 6000 buyers may not not all be experts..

And the other challenge is sabotage..

Oh you mean sabotage by asking questions would-be funders are entitled to? Or sabotage by researching the stated claims and realising they are false and misleading? I get it now, sorry for rocking the boat.

 

[FTC Complaint]

Oh you mean sabotage by asking questions would-be funders are entitled to? Or sabotage by researching the stated claims and realising they are false and misleading? I get it now, sorry for rocking the boat.

Ian Grace
8 hours ago
My user names are EULITTLEB and EULITTLB – questions I raised start of Campaign have not been answered, do not talk tosh claiming I have a job to kill Ivars Sondors’ (who is Storm?) start up business; he is doing a great job of it making false claims, having lawsuits lodged against him & by taking pictures of one bike in different guises trying to convince would-be funders that this Campaign has any credibility. T’S & C’s of IGG state Campaign Owners should answer funders – Ivars doesn’t.

Some of your many posts on IGG don't read well!

IGG and Facebook are being used, by the emotionally invested, to fill the vacuum that Storm left in his wake. The noise on IGG and Facebook does not replace Sondors, it just blocks realization and fact finding. Those venues are totally irrational as a result. One guy over at IGG, your nemesis, may even think he is an important part of the campaign! Who knows what he thinks? As Storm stonewalls, your many posts are making them more irrational and defensive. Take a few days off IGG, and/or drop it entirely.

As far as I am concerned, my main point is to be factual as I outline facts regarding Sondors and his bike and point out inconsistencies, lies, shortfalls, and omissions of the campaign. At this point I am advocating that people ask for a refund by credit card, paypal, Sondors, and/or IGG.

 

[EULITTLB]

They don't read well because I have 500 characters and am limited to 5 or 6 posts a day - it is up to people to make their own minds up, not for me to direct them to seek refunds one way or another, I have no interest in them doing so.

 

[FTC Complaint]

They don't read well because I have 500 characters and am limited to 5 or 6 posts a day - it is up to people to make their own minds up, not for me to direct them to seek refunds one way or another, I have no interest in them doing so.

Yes, well I would say using words like "kill" are not doing you any good. By all means post here, but I would advise you to stop stoking a flame war over on IGG.

To some extent, Sondors is self destructing as evidenced by the lawsuit, it will take time for a guy with $5,000,000 in his pocket to burn out and he will cause lots of financial pain for folks in the process; starting with A2.0 and then flowing over to the consumer. Psychodrama, in court and elsewhere, is usually the hallmark of a deadbeat. Time usually exposes the truth that the deadbeat tries and works to confuse.

Legitimate business people rue getting into lawsuits because, unless they are part of a profit center, they are a costly distraction and a waste of time. Lawsuits are generally an expression of failure as a last resort for recourse.

All the poor Sondors consumer has as a remedy is to ask for a refund.

 

[George S.]

I made some comments to this story about another IGG bike (at the bottom of the story). You guys seem to be locked onto this one bike.

http://cleantechnica.com/2015/05/11/worlds-affordable-electric-bike-wave-ebike/

For all the talk you guys/gals are lighting the path to get people to make more informed decisions, this story makes it clear you have had no impact. Sorry.

 

[FTC Complaint]

I made some comments to this story about another IGG bike (at the bottom of the story). You guys seem to be locked onto this one bike.

http://cleantechnica.com/2015/05/11/worlds-affordable-electric-bike-wave-ebike/

For all the talk you guys/gals are lighting the path to get people to make more informed decisions, this story makes it clear you have had no impact. Sorry.

Yes, well the Wave bike, is another illustration of "good marketing" in "crowd-funding" complete with copycat "false advertising" claims. They even have a guy that looks like Storm complete with a Jon Hopp look alike "manufacturing genius." The campaign is just as funny, but will be less than 1/10th as damaging as the Storm campaign.

At 28mph, under motor power alone, the Wave e:bike would be illegal to sell in all the US! You can usually program a controller to limit max speed.

Its is clear this, and other ebike Indiegogo campaigns, are just leveraging Storm Sondors hype and thus are collecting the crumbs left on the the table 500 ebikes at a time. Obviously, People are making emotional decisions rather than informed decisions.

The biggest problem is that;

IGG gets paid first, the consumer gets the short end of the stick. Basically, you are an idiot if you use a crowdfunding platform to purchase a product.

Nothing can be said to counter emotional vesting or idiocy.

 

[PowerMe]

Basically, you are an idiot if you use a crowdfunding platform to purchase a product.

Starting with, of course, that you're not actually "purchasing a product" when contributing to a CF campaign. You're actually enabling others to develop whatever they claim they will be developing, with risks involved that may or may not be well understood. If they succeed at creating the thing they are trying to create, you will receive something back that is or approximates the thing you helped fund. Most of the time it works out pretty well. Sometimes not. Sometimes it crashes and burns or fades away.

 

[PowerMe]

BTW the eBike I purchased (an EVO Street) claims a range of up to 60 miles, with the bare minimum of 30 miles. On one charge I get approximately 27 miles and that's with me pedaling actively and using mostly Eco mode with some standard (i.e. 2 bars) thrown in.

I believe that most eBike manufacturers over-estimate range, based on the absolute most ideal situation possible. My real world results are not even close to what they claim.

 

[stevenast]

BTW the eBike I purchased (an EVO Street) claims a range of up to 60 miles, with the bare minimum of 30 miles. On one charge I get approximately 27 miles and that's with me pedaling actively and using mostly Eco mode with some standard (i.e. 2 bars) thrown in.

I believe that most eBike manufacturers over-estimate range, based on the absolute most ideal situation possible. My real world results are not even close to what they claim.

My bike claims 25-35 miles and I get about 15 PER BAR (of five). I know I could go 60 miles with ease. I guess it depends on the integrity of your manufacturer, and how you ride.

 

[FTC Complaint]

not actually "purchasing a product" when contributing to a CF campaign. You're actually enabling others to develop whatever they claim they will be developing

The structure of crowd-funding has been designed to put the consumer at a distinct disadvantage in relation to the platform. It can be argued, and I think successfully, that you are purchasing a good in this instance.

"This crowd-funding is to raise the funds to develop a piece of software that does not exist" - Speculative Donation

vs

"Click here and you get a known product" - Purchase, presale

The platform would argue otherwise, as it is in their interest to "make money without risk" as the "consumer" absorbs all risks. I would argue that; The contract between you and the platform is unconscionably unfair. Mainly, one party receives all the benefits of the arrangement and the other none!

The terms of use are one sided; on a purchase, you are entitled to an expectation of
performance; the consumer would be surprised to find they have no recourse.

The contract between you and the platform should be voided.

 

[stevenast]

And you aren't asking for a refund??? Krazzy

Actually not a bad idea. 27 miles is poor range.

Good knowledge to have, I have recommended these bikes to people, maybe not now.... Easy motion has taken a step down on my list.

 

[scmike]

Maybe, here in the states we could get the EPA to test each Ebike and create a window sticker listing
E-only range, calories not burned, and cost to charge... something along those lines...

 

[PowerMe]

And you aren't asking for a refund??? Krazzy

I'm hoping with some weight loss (which umm, has not occurred because I'm not doing what I need to do) my range will increase. I can get the minimum of the range they claim (30mi) but no where near the maximum. Yes it is disappointing, but I otherwise like the bike. Other people do manage to get better mileage on their Easy Motion bikes.

 

[J.R.]

Maybe, here in the states we could get the EPA to test each Ebike and create a window sticker listing
E-only range, calories not burned, and cost to charge... something along those lines...

More government regulation = higher ebike cost.

 

[pxpaulx]

Maybe, here in the states we could get the EPA to test each Ebike and create a window sticker listing
E-only range, calories not burned, and cost to charge... something along those lines...

I can see the testing room - sterile environment, 150lb weight on the seat, rear tire on a dynamometer and the pedals being rotated by a machine - 90 miles no problem!

I'm pretty sure the big manufacturers are already using EPA-esque testing (i.e. un-achievable) to achieve their mileage ratings

 

[George S.]

I'm hoping with some weight loss (which umm, has not occurred because I'm not doing what I need to do) my range will increase. I can get the minimum of the range they claim (30mi) but no where near the maximum. Yes it is disappointing, but I otherwise like the bike. Other people do manage to get better mileage on their Easy Motion bikes.

@PowerMe -- there are ways to test if the battery has the real amp hour capacity. In other words, miles of range is not a 'real' way to test the battery. But if they say it is 11 amp hours (and whatever voltage) you can test that.

First off, you have to run the battery down to the point where the controller stops drawing current from the battery. This is different from the bars. From there you basically need to charge the battery, but keep track of how long it takes. I have a Watt Meter, the kind you plug into the wall, so I know what is going into the battery. If 2 amps are going into the battery, every hour, and it takes 5 hours to recharge, everything is about right. Most chargers are about '2 amps' so if you run the battery down, it should take 5-6 hours for an 11/12 AH battery

For your speeds, I actually think there is a problem with the battery. If you know how fast you pedal, on the flat, without power at all, you can figure the watts for that. Then with your speed, you can figure the total watts, and work back to what the battery is delivering.

It's complicated, but there are ways to get a rough idea. It just sounds low enough to be trouble.

 

[scmike]

Thanks George, I was hoping to lure you back... There can be a simple formula to determine range... well
maybe it's not simple to create but to use... I really do have to go off to work..

 

[PowerMe]

For your speeds, I actually think there is a problem with the battery. If you know how fast you pedal, on the flat, without power at all, you can figure the watts for that. Then with your speed, you can figure the total watts, and work back to what the battery is delivering.

It's complicated, but there are ways to get a rough idea. It just sounds low enough to be trouble.

@George

I don't how to do any of that figuring out watts & stuff. I've never taken the battery all the way down to where it's flashing 'help plug me in.' It takes about 5 to 6 hrs to fully charge the battery, which is a 36v 12ah battery. I can ride about 5.4 miles and 1 bar will drop. That's an average from what I've noticed. So I extrapolate about 27 to 30 mi, on average. I've never ridden more than 20mi at one time and usually it's more like 10 to 12. The roads around me are not all flat. In general there are grade % of 1 to 4, with the occasional 5% every so often. My speeds tend to average around 12mph but that's because I end up riding on the sidewalks a lot for safety as the roads are not cycling friendly.

 

[George S.]

@George

I don't how to do any of that figuring out watts & stuff. I've never taken the battery all the way down to where it's flashing 'help plug me in.' It takes about 5 to 6 hrs to fully charge the battery, which is a 36v 12ah battery. I can ride about 5.4 miles and 1 bar will drop. That's an average from what I've noticed. So I extrapolate about 27 to 30 mi, on average. I've never ridden more than 20mi at one time and usually it's more like 10 to 12. The roads around me are not all flat. In general there are grade % of 1 to 4, with the occasional 5% every so often. My speeds tend to average around 12mph but that's because I end up riding on the sidewalks a lot for safety as the roads are not cycling friendly.

@PowerMe -- I wouldn't expect too much from the bars. I know how they work, and they are barely useable. They measure volts, but that's not enough. The charge time is what I would go by, and it's about right for a battery that has been drawn down a lot. The best reason to run the battery down would be to have a calibration, for you, of what one bar or no bars really means. If you can go another 10 miles, it's misleading.

My charger is rated for output, at 2 amps. You don't need to know much, but 2 amps over 6 hours would be 12 amp hours, and that's what your battery capacity is supposed to be. This is pretty much educated guesses, to see if there is a significant problem.