Sondors Fact Finding. Due Diligence. Scrutiny.

[JoePah]

Every crowdfunding projects is a crap shoot, and anyone investing in one in 2015 should know the risks involved.

When people complain about Sondors or any other project, what they are really telling the world is that they had no clue what they were spending their money on in the first place, and they are just an uninformed person of the age. Most of the creators are first time businessmen who aren't necessarily dishonest, just someone who is inexperienced, but with a great idea.

There are so many disappointments in just the eBike crowdfunding, like FlyKly, Riide and Porteur the chances of success seem small.. Esp Porteur with its $3500 price tag, has to sting.. It is essentially a custom build steel bike with a laptop battery powering the motor.

Sondors is heading towards production and delivery.. What happens after that is anyone's guess.. But if he does deliver on what he's showing it will be a great deal for those who bought in early.

 

[EULITTLB]

I am not against crowdfunding in principle, but there needs to be more safeguards put in place IMHO.

My claim all along has been that the performance specs are wildly exaggerated and not achievable on a bike of that value, and that the shipping guarantee of less - MUCH LESS - was misleading and there would be no refunds. Some people aren't bothered it appears at the above, so long as they get a bike in some form or another on the stated delivery date (May 1st for Wave 1) or even a few months after that. My claim is that this Campaign would be fraught with technical and logistical complexities (taxes, duties) but I did not envisage legal action putting a stick in the wheels (pun intended).

The legal action by Agency 2.0 is very surprising and I believe may be purposeful, it will have a direct impact on the manufacture and distribution of the bikes I am sorry to say. The last thing I want for backers is for them to lose money or to not receive goods they are satisfied with, and it remains to be seen whether Agency 2.0 will be successful in Court, however it is a desperate action to make such claims public, in any other line of business matters would have been heated and argued behind closed doors. This situation is disastrous for any business, even more so for a highly dubious Campaign such as this.

Now we learn - or have it confirmed - that Storm Sondors is in fact Ivars Sondors who still owes a Company $40k (+interest?) having been convicted of Contractual Fraud (no big deal) but Agency 2.0 have also claimed that he may be insolvent and that he has bounced cheques on them to the value of $160k, moved all the funds raised in this campaign offshore and is reneging on promises and a Contract (the validity of it will shortly be determined).

My advice, before I take a short break from this topic, is not necessarily to reach for the Chargeback claim immediately anymore, but to make yourself aware of the window with your cc Company for lodging a Chargeback claim or for retrieving funds howsoever you paid. Developments over the next week will be interesting for sure.

 

[stevenast]

make yourself aware of the window with your cc Company for lodging a Chargeback claim or for retrieving funds howsoever you paid

Prudent advice. Find out what your options are. Can't hurt!

 

[Brambor]

Yesterday after our bike ride we were approached by one person who asked us about our eBikes and also said he is waiting for his that he ordered. Turns out he ordered a Sondors bike. He lives close to the beach and would like to use it riding the 7.5 miles of the beach and back. We had a decent chat but if these bikes ship I would love to know whether he makes the round trip or not (range). I got his business card, I might contact him if these bikes actually ship. He was kind of taken aback that I knew everything about his bike and I tried to be totally diplomatic and not to spoil anything for him at this juncture.

 

[EULITTLB]

kind of you brambor must have been difficult!

 

[wa5]

was he aware of all the goings on Brambor? court case, fraud, etc?

Did he speak with a Texan Drawl and show a spooky reverence when he mentioned Sondors?

 

[Brambor]

He did not indicate he was aware. I had a 50/50 feeling on his knowledge of the Sondors phenomenon.

 

[FTC Complaint]

If we do not receive our bikes, perhaps we can get the rights to this story for a made for TV movie. From the profits, we can buy our own bikes.

If we do not receive our bikes; that is an interesting question; Will we receive our bikes?

The answer is definitively NO based on another question; What constitutes a "legitimate consumer product"?

The answer to that question is; When there is a diligent company with assets and depth to back it up.

As mentioned, Ad nauseam, there is not the money or inclination to provide customer support, regulatory performance and safety testing, and product liability insurance.
PS: Ad Nauseam is a Latin term for a discussion that has continued so long that it has continued "to [the point of] nausea."

With the lawsuit and the Yahoo retraction I think folks want to be lied to, as self-delusion is more comfortable than realization! My suggestion to you and others that purchased the bike is ask for a refund from all parties.

 

[George S.]

He did not indicate he was aware. I had a 50/50 feeling on his knowledge of the Sondors phenomenon.

Two weeks ago I was unloading my X3 near a bike path and a man came up to me, asking if it was an Ebike. He had been going around and around about buying one, but he had definitely heard of the Sondors bike. I think he was very skeptical, saying it might be a scam.

We were talking about how there were $500 ebikes and there are $7000 ebikes, and it's not clear what a casual first time buyer should do.

Just as an aside, it's clear Sondo and Chris are not getting along. If Chris wants $50 a bike, maybe more with the shipping, what should Sondo want? There's a bottom line where you run out of money to build the bike.

@EULITTLB: I don't think it is a very interesting story, at this point. I give up on books more and more these days. From what Phil is saying, the campaign is being very careful not to suggest Storm won't pay. If Storm said that, a judge would have reason to tie up some of the money. But we don't know where the money is, what contracts may have been signed, how many bikes might be built or paid for at this point. If they have the money to build the bikes, Storm may spend it all, leaving nothing for Chris. He may have salted away some cash early on.

If the story is 'true', all Chris could do would be to get a judge to issue an injunction to IGG, putting a hold on some money. Sondors could counter he no longer has the money to build the bikes. IGG would be left paying the perk insurance, and might sue Chris for botching the campaign. A2 would have managed another failed campaign. Three years from now, the backers might get 20 cents on the dollar back. But there would be some lawyers doing major kitchen renovations.

This book never ends because there probably is no accounting, so no one will know what happened. Sondors may have a pile, he might not. The yawn ending would be that they send out the bikes and we never know how the Sondors v Olenik thing plays out. If people like the bikes (assuming they get bikes) the design might have some value in the marketplace. I've heard there are 'clones' in the works.

Curiously, those of us who have been around a while were very dubious of CF after Flykly and some other deeply flawed ebike efforts. This bike exposes even more serious flaws with CF. I assume Chris gave Storm all the money (literally) to avoid any legal liability for problems with the bikes. Uh, how'd that work out Chris? CF really does stand for cluster fork, last time I checked.

All the 'bad' stuff comes back. The direct ship thing is dicey. The books may not satisfy the IRS. (Books? What books?). The bike may be a great ride on the sand (ha), but I doubt it would make it down an audit trail.

 

[scmike]

George,
If one postive thing comes out of this CF... It should be some kind of consumer protection... at the very least
a clear disclaimer... before you hit that"complete transaction" link.. "You are not buying anything..." or something to that effect... If,Big IF, in the early days... before the campaign, 2.0 and the the Storm team had spent a couple of grand on some sample Chinese Ebikes and tested them... all they would have to do is make a bulk order... easy... But instead they chose to go with the one yellow bike and promote the hell out of it... and figure out the manufacturing later....bad idea, calculated plan?... almost seems nefarious...irresponsible at best...
I ordered 2 RadRovers, after considering the Storm, because they did it the logical (2 sample bikes) way and answered all my questions, personally, and quickly... plus they don't have a PR machine... that sucks up funding and has only $$$ motivating it...

 

[EULITTLB]

“We have stated shipping as the maximum amount in the perk but will be much less. …”

“the more we sell the cheaper it is. We can guarantee is will be less than $194 each for USA and $247 for International.”

now, having secured funds on the promise of 7000+ ebikes…

Will the cost of shipping go down?
No. The current cost is $194 for US shipping and $247 for International.

Now that is a bit misleading isn’t it?

 

[EULITTLB]

It is following me - I have tried to get away with it, looking at buying new block paving for my garden (two new metal sheds for my bikes ) and look what jumps out at me!!!

Someone is paying for this advertising - and it is not me!!!!!!

 

[pxpaulx]

It is following me - I have tried to get away with it, looking at buying new block paving for my garden (two new metal sheds for my bikes ) and look what jumps out at me!!!

Someone is paying for this advertising - and it is not me!!!!!!

It is your own doing - if you could keep yourself from checking the IGG page and clear your cookies they would be gone. We both know you can't help yourself at this point though

 

[Hurley]

Can someone please explain to me how a 26 X 4 inch wheel accommodates a 29 X 4.8 inch tire with 29 X 4 inch tube?

I am thoroughly confused by these Specs. My knowledge of wheels and tires is apparently really bad at least when it comes to fat wheels. I always thought you had to have the same wheel/tire/tube size.

 

[stevenast]

Wheel is inner diameter, tire is outer. The tire measurement is kind of "bogus", just go with the wheel measurement. I find ISO to be the best measure. 100% consistent.

 

[stevenast]

Can someone please explain to me how a 26 X 4 inch wheel accommodates a 29 X 4.8 inch tire with 29 X 4 inch tube?



I am thoroughly confused by these Specs. My knowledge of wheels and tires is apparently really bad at least when it comes to fat wheels. I always thought you had to have the same wheel/tire/tube size.

The link below explains in detail. Regarding Sonders, I can't find ISO specs ... maybe someone knows where they are or maybe it's just one more bit of information the campaign doesn't give out!

https://www.sheldonbrown.com/tire-sizing.html

 

[pxpaulx]

Can someone please explain to me how a 26 X 4 inch wheel accommodates a 29 X 4.8 inch tire with 29 X 4 inch tube?

I am thoroughly confused by these Specs. My knowledge of wheels and tires is apparently really bad at least when it comes to fat wheels. I always thought you had to have the same wheel/tire/tube size.

All fat tires are actually 26 inch rims - the actual diameter is close to 29 inches owing to the height of the tire itself. Nobody calls them 29 inch tires though (in reference to fat tires).

 

[stevenast]

All fat tires are actually 26 inch rims - the actual diameter is close to 29 inches owing to the height of the tire itself. Nobody calls them 29 inch tires though (in reference to fat tires).

Correct! The term 29" tire is used to refer to mountain bike tires on 622mm rims (@ 24.5").

Meanwhile most 26" tires are 559mm bead seat diameter, about 22" (there really aren't any 26" rims by measurement).

That's why I say, stick with ISO, it is so much more clear.

(Edit: so your fat tire is on a 22" rim, but extends out from the rim about 3 1/2 " on each side, giving a tire-rolling diameter of about 29")

Does anyone have ISO measurements for Sonders rims and tires?

 

[FTC Complaint]

Thanks for the replies, so if I was doing 20-25 mph and hitting a fairly tight corner on pavement, will it hold or am I going to slide?

Well you don't have to worry about going 20-25 mph on that bike, if you actually get a bike delivered. You might see 20-mph for a bit as the battery under-volts "C" (draws down faster than it can recover), but that is about it.

I would be more concerned that you would experience random acceleration if you 1) backpedal with a cheap pedal assist sensor coupled with a cheap motor controller, or randomly accelerate due to cheap parts, or randomly accelerate due to a short in cheap wiring, or randomly accelerate due to a lack of testing. 2) find yourself in the middle of an intersection getting hit by a car or face-planted into a tree.

"I have actually experienced the phenomena of random acceleartion, on the first Cheap $1550 bike I rode, around a turn, at an intersection with brakes on at full stop, and near a tree. I figured, for about the same money, I could do a much better job and thus I built my first bike and battery pack as a learning experience for a potential business; 500w at 48v etc Kevlar tires torque sensor in the bb and great components such as brakes and electronics. Then I played with a 1000w motor. {I had to learn bicycle building skills, and relearn electronics and soldering} When I studied the business I learned about all the costs of legitimacy you need to consider that Storm has forgotten about or just ignored"

You might find the wheel out of true when/if you get the bike; and Storm won't be there to support it. And btw no bike repair shop in its right mind will want to absorb the liability of touching the bike nor would they fix the bike. (I was asked to repair a $5000 ebike for a bike store as a courtesy when I was buying some parts I needed, the expensive components they could fix and were happy with, but they did not even have a volt meter. They don't like to (won't) repair cheap bikes and components! eg Walmart Target type Chinese bikes)

On injury you will find Sondors does not have product liability insurance or even a return policy. You might actually be safer if the bike is never delivered.

PS: Another major crowdfunding just went tits up. Unlike Storm this was/is an experimental product, rather than a standard Chinese consumer product that should be easy to buy off the shelf or on Alibaba. Also, unlike Storm they paid for independent lab testing! In fact they tested every unit before they shipped, and identified things such as bad batteries! I can assure you that testing is not going to happen with the Storm bike as it is expensive.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1655017763/cst-01-the-worlds-thinnest-watch

PS: My guess is Storm's lawyer asks for a delay tomorrow in court. Best to ask for a refund now, stake your claim to recover funds, while it is still held in part by Indiegogo.

PSS: Some of the folks (including myself) that have expert knowledge in this field are trying to help all the folks that have been snookered by a fast talking crowdfunding "fraud." I think there is proof enough to use the word "fraud" as I have been reticent to use it before the lawsuit.

 

[EULITTLB]

I was going to mirror pretty much what FTC stated but without all the clever stuff - if and it is a big IF you get your bike.

Might appear unrelated but read this - http://time.com/3831323/trek-bike-recall/

s*it happens in life and it only takes a couple of incidents in 7000+ bikes........... oh where is Ivars now....... Ivars where are you? Ivars? You evaded paying the Court Award of $40,000 to Toyjobs for three-and-a-half years, surely.......... (I picture Ivars living life as a ladyboy in a remote island off Thailand sipping Pina Coladas for the rest of his life, the one Sondors ebike that ever worked hanging up in his Beach shack)

(On another matter, surely the Court on 6th May 2015 will look with some contempt at Ivars since he has previously treated the Judgements of the Californian Courts with ignorance and wilful disobedience?)