Sondors Fact Finding. Due Diligence. Scrutiny.
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wa5
Well-Known Member
So would I be close in saying that the costs so far for IGG / 2.0 / Pay pal fees and the cost of the new PR group, would equate to about 25 percent of gross, before including the cost of the bike and Storms piece of the pie? does that sound about right?
and then we have the cost of the court case and I think that at the very least Pacific Storm will be relying on company funds to defend that.. and I would guess that Storm as the grand poobah will also be relying on company funds to defend himself.. how much will be left for the bike.
Over on IGG even the "true believers" are now talking down a May delivery.
and then we have the cost of the court case and I think that at the very least Pacific Storm will be relying on company funds to defend that.. and I would guess that Storm as the grand poobah will also be relying on company funds to defend himself.. how much will be left for the bike.
Over on IGG even the "true believers" are now talking down a May delivery.
FTC Complaint
Active Member
@Court
Can I make a formal complaint on this thread please?
Charge the battery in 90 minutes and watch literal explosions sure to launch a rider upwards 50 miles into the air and 50 miles away from the bike into the Twilight Zone. Buyers might get a bike, but they are going to get bilked.
@FTC Complaint cannot guarantee any explosion would launch a rider 50 miles into the air/50 miles away from the bike - it would appear to be more like 23 and something miles. I give you a stated guarantee the explosion range will be less that for US Customers, in fact MUCH LESS.......... oh come to think of it now the Campaign has ended I can't and let's forget about it.
Just sayin'
Can I make a formal complaint on this thread please?
Charge the battery in 90 minutes and watch literal explosions sure to launch a rider upwards 50 miles into the air and 50 miles away from the bike into the Twilight Zone. Buyers might get a bike, but they are going to get bilked.
@FTC Complaint cannot guarantee any explosion would launch a rider 50 miles into the air/50 miles away from the bike - it would appear to be more like 23 and something miles. I give you a stated guarantee the explosion range will be less that for US Customers, in fact MUCH LESS.......... oh come to think of it now the Campaign has ended I can't and let's forget about it.
Just sayin'
FTC Complaint
Active Member
Here is an updated FTC complaint for you to file with the FTC and CA AG's office.
The "Storm-Sondors crowdfunding" campaign has been centered around the sale of an electronic bicycle being sold to consumers for $499 ( $599 and then $649) This campaign has raised near $5,700,000 in several weeks based on false representations made to the public and members of the press.
The product being sold is a known product with clearly documented parameters. Materially false and misleading statements were made as part of this campaign to include range, weight, specification, legality of operation and expected performance.
Illustratively, the most brazenly-false representation made pertains to a claimed range of fifty miles versus a reality of approximately 15 miles or less under normal operating conditions. This claim has been widely published through advertisements appearing on the internet. This claim, among with many others that have been made, is and are irrefutably false. The parties involved in this offering, individually separately together or in part, including Storm aka Sondors ebike, Indiegogo, and/or Agency 2.0 have continually refused to remedy the gross inaccuracies of this offering.
On April 9th 2015, a lawsuit alleging fraud was filed by Agency 2.0 against Storm-Sondors for failure to pay for services rendered. This lawsuit represents an additional risk to the delivery of a product that was purchased via crowd-funding.
On April 29, 2015, the Storm-Sondors campaign confirmed, and thus has proved, that it engaged in "false advertising" by publishing actual test results of its offering thus demonstrating the maximum achievable range of the product at no more than twenty three miles under throttle power as opposed to the fifty miles it represented in prolific advertising. These metrics were obtained by Storm-Sondors under ideal and unrealistic operating conditions that will not be achievable by the consumer should they actually revive the product they have pre-purchased.
Consumers have been led to falsely assume, and have been deceived through implication, that this business would meet all standards and would be a going concern and thus be able to warrant this product. Should a product be delivered, no assurance exists that consumers will be able to find recourse in terms of either support or product liability. Additional, no assurance exists that this product will meet regulatory requirements pertaining to bicycles, electric bicycles, or lithium batteries. In this regard, false assurance was given by all three parties at the time of sale and in follow on communications through the Indiegogo platform both individually and in synergy with each other.
I hereby ask the Federal Trade Commission act in the public interest by remedying this situation through litigation against all three parties.
https://www.ftccomplaintassistant.gov/GettingStarted?NextQID=251&Url=#&panel1-8#crnt
If you like, copy this post and send it to the FTC.. (or write your own based on facts) In the text name three parties.
Sondors ebike c/o Indiegogo 965 Mission Street, 6th Floor, San Francisco, CA 94103.
Indiegogo 965 Mission Street, 6th Floor, San Francisco, CA 94103.
Agency 2.0 co Indiegogo 965 Mission Street, 6th Floor, San Francisco, CA 94103.
Then copy your complaint against the three parties to the CA Attorney General with this form;
https://oag.ca.gov/contact/consumer-complaint-against-business-or-company
The "Storm-Sondors crowdfunding" campaign has been centered around the sale of an electronic bicycle being sold to consumers for $499 ( $599 and then $649) This campaign has raised near $5,700,000 in several weeks based on false representations made to the public and members of the press.
The product being sold is a known product with clearly documented parameters. Materially false and misleading statements were made as part of this campaign to include range, weight, specification, legality of operation and expected performance.
Illustratively, the most brazenly-false representation made pertains to a claimed range of fifty miles versus a reality of approximately 15 miles or less under normal operating conditions. This claim has been widely published through advertisements appearing on the internet. This claim, among with many others that have been made, is and are irrefutably false. The parties involved in this offering, individually separately together or in part, including Storm aka Sondors ebike, Indiegogo, and/or Agency 2.0 have continually refused to remedy the gross inaccuracies of this offering.
On April 9th 2015, a lawsuit alleging fraud was filed by Agency 2.0 against Storm-Sondors for failure to pay for services rendered. This lawsuit represents an additional risk to the delivery of a product that was purchased via crowd-funding.
On April 29, 2015, the Storm-Sondors campaign confirmed, and thus has proved, that it engaged in "false advertising" by publishing actual test results of its offering thus demonstrating the maximum achievable range of the product at no more than twenty three miles under throttle power as opposed to the fifty miles it represented in prolific advertising. These metrics were obtained by Storm-Sondors under ideal and unrealistic operating conditions that will not be achievable by the consumer should they actually revive the product they have pre-purchased.
Consumers have been led to falsely assume, and have been deceived through implication, that this business would meet all standards and would be a going concern and thus be able to warrant this product. Should a product be delivered, no assurance exists that consumers will be able to find recourse in terms of either support or product liability. Additional, no assurance exists that this product will meet regulatory requirements pertaining to bicycles, electric bicycles, or lithium batteries. In this regard, false assurance was given by all three parties at the time of sale and in follow on communications through the Indiegogo platform both individually and in synergy with each other.
I hereby ask the Federal Trade Commission act in the public interest by remedying this situation through litigation against all three parties.
https://www.ftccomplaintassistant.gov/GettingStarted?NextQID=251&Url=#&panel1-8#crnt
If you like, copy this post and send it to the FTC.. (or write your own based on facts) In the text name three parties.
Sondors ebike c/o Indiegogo 965 Mission Street, 6th Floor, San Francisco, CA 94103.
Indiegogo 965 Mission Street, 6th Floor, San Francisco, CA 94103.
Agency 2.0 co Indiegogo 965 Mission Street, 6th Floor, San Francisco, CA 94103.
Then copy your complaint against the three parties to the CA Attorney General with this form;
https://oag.ca.gov/contact/consumer-complaint-against-business-or-company
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wa5
Well-Known Member
http://www.crowdfundinsider.com/201...all-in-sondors-ebike-crowdfunding-fraud-case/
another C/F insider update. this is getting real serious.
another C/F insider update. this is getting real serious.
Chas
Member
Serious? This quote from the article is serious:
“Pacific Storm, Ivars company, states that if they are not able to access and use Indiegogo funds then that will prevent manufacture and distribution of eBikes to backers.”
OMG - Now Sondors has a back door giving himself an excuse not to deliver on his promises. This is a turning point…
George S.
Well-Known Member
I told someone close to the campaign a couple of days ago that it all comes down to what Agency does, and whether Sondors gets the money. I don't know what Sondors intentions are. The problem is Agency wants $50 a bike. If Sondors can't build the bike for about $380, the game is over. If Sondors can grab the money, build the bikes, and leave nothing for Agency, then people get the bikes.
The sad part for Agency is that they never put ANY controls in place. They aren't being paid because Sondors was the only one getting money. That's not bright. And there's no accounting, so no one knows what the bike costs, what is around to pay for it. No, Agency will have handled the second biggest crowdfund campaign, and then torpedoed it. That will not look good.
Last chance guys. Drop the lawsuit. Sit down with Sondors. Build the bikes. Divvy up what is left.You kill the bikes, maybe you kill Agency. Think about it. People want this bike to fail. Do you, Chris?
The sad part for Agency is that they never put ANY controls in place. They aren't being paid because Sondors was the only one getting money. That's not bright. And there's no accounting, so no one knows what the bike costs, what is around to pay for it. No, Agency will have handled the second biggest crowdfund campaign, and then torpedoed it. That will not look good.
Last chance guys. Drop the lawsuit. Sit down with Sondors. Build the bikes. Divvy up what is left.You kill the bikes, maybe you kill Agency. Think about it. People want this bike to fail. Do you, Chris?
pxpaulx
Well-Known Member
It might kill Indiegogo too - they don't exactly have the greatest track record to begin with.
FTC Complaint
Active Member
George,
"Good Faith" - In California, and most everywhere else, there is an implied promise of good faith and fair dealing. Agency 2.0 has a right to get paid. There is clearly a contract here.
offer
acceptance
consideration
mutual intention
We have one party which delivered (and has "clean hands")and the other that refuses to pay. The party that refuse to pay gained unjust benefit to which it is not entitled.
The only-things clouding the contract
--Jon Hopp - That is countered by Storm accepting the services of the A2.0 and confirming the terms
--Arbitration - An argument might be made that the process has to start with arbitration
Agency's 2.0 complaint, very amateurish in content and presentation.
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Chas
Member
Good points George. I put together a BOM (Bill of Materials) to get rough pricing. There is not a lot of room for profit here. You can save some buying in bulk - most of the savings is in the bike as the price below is retail, and the other pieces are wholesale prices. Those samsung cells are worth about $140, which is a little more than what I have listed below.
Here is a build kit
- Start with a Mongoose quality steel bike
o $189 http://www.walmart.com/ip/26-Mongoo...in-Fat-Tire-Mountain-Multiple-Colors/22861845
- Get as cheap of a battery you can:
o (Link Removed - No Longer Exists) ($119)
- Add a motor kit using the same Bafang motor.
o http://www.elifebike.com ($81)
Total: $389 + shipping.
As for Agency 2.0, well they aren't innocent either. You would think after the watch kreyos fiasco, they would have learned some lessons.
Here is a build kit
- Start with a Mongoose quality steel bike
o $189 http://www.walmart.com/ip/26-Mongoo...in-Fat-Tire-Mountain-Multiple-Colors/22861845
- Get as cheap of a battery you can:
o (Link Removed - No Longer Exists) ($119)
- Add a motor kit using the same Bafang motor.
o http://www.elifebike.com ($81)
Total: $389 + shipping.
As for Agency 2.0, well they aren't innocent either. You would think after the watch kreyos fiasco, they would have learned some lessons.
These things should not happen in business - Sondors and Olenik are negligent in how they have handled matters and there are a lot of worried funders out there now, I would like to think I saw this was going to happen right from the start, nothing has been convincing in spite of anything that has been photographed and posted as an update. The cynic in me says this is purposeful on the part of both parties, if not they have let everyone down with their sheer incompetence. Ivars doesn't know wtf he is doing, we all make mistakes but this guy is asking funders to pay for his.
Chas
Member
I first got exited about this when Yahoo published their article making this sound like the deal of the century. But when they realized their mistake, Yahoo backpedaled and finally admitted:
“The Sondors eBike Indiegogo campaign may look like a product catalog page, but it’s not... Don’t think of it as shopping; it’s really more like gambling.”
Once Yahoo published the initial article, it seemed to go viral. In the rush to break the news, the internet doesn't do fact checking. Its more important to be first that to be accurate. Now if Yahoo had only said the gambling quote that in the February 1st article...
As you may well be aware Chas there are Sondors fanboys on this forum and elsewhere still now who maintain that all is above board with this campaign and the claimed specs, they are doing their best to reassure funders and to argue the toss about laughable specs claimed as self-professed experts - I researched and quickly evaluated matters and have done my level best to make everyone aware of the failings - some people will not be told!!!
pxpaulx
Well-Known Member
Have to consider that the mongoose bike is $189 after it has gone through shipping, and the actual cost of the bike itself. It wouldn't surprise me if the bike itself costs half that amount before shipping is considered - it is going to be as cheap as they come, it has to be to make any amount on the bike.
pxpaulx
Well-Known Member
Same thing happened with the Wave bike - it went from nowhere and nothing to several hundred thousand after the Yahoo puff piece. Those articles are bought front page advertising - the backpedaling comes well after any potential damage is done. (not that I have nearly as much of an issue with the Wave bike as the Sondors).
JRA
Well-Known Member
In the Sondors declaration he claims approximately 10,000 bikes sold. Even if you took the total sales figure to date and claimed they were all bikes that were all sold at the "most affordable ever" price of $499 plus $194 shipping wouldn't that total more like approximately $7 mil? I am sure that the court will be able to do the math at some point. I don't see how his declaration focusing on how many bikes (more like approximately 7000) and and some pics on IGG are addressing the root of the suit? Which is the money owed to Agency 2.0 as per contract upon completion of the campaign for services rendered and 10% of the gross.
As far as Agency 2.0 goes I don't think that they have been more than honest all along either. They certainly trumpeted the benefits of Sondors from the start and didn't do any listening to the bad press that the campaign got and try and address the issues as they occurred. Of course they are in it for the money but I feel that they could have at least done more in regards to researching the viability of Sondors potential product.
The back and forth repetitious bickering that has been going on on the IGG site is getting old. Nobody is winning that battle and it certainly hasn't done a lot to stop the flow of money in to the pockets of Mr. Sondors as far as I can tell. I would be interested to see what would go on there if the detractors left it alone. I would be surprised if that within a weeks time the funders won't start eating their own.
As far as Agency 2.0 goes I don't think that they have been more than honest all along either. They certainly trumpeted the benefits of Sondors from the start and didn't do any listening to the bad press that the campaign got and try and address the issues as they occurred. Of course they are in it for the money but I feel that they could have at least done more in regards to researching the viability of Sondors potential product.
The back and forth repetitious bickering that has been going on on the IGG site is getting old. Nobody is winning that battle and it certainly hasn't done a lot to stop the flow of money in to the pockets of Mr. Sondors as far as I can tell. I would be interested to see what would go on there if the detractors left it alone. I would be surprised if that within a weeks time the funders won't start eating their own.
Meanwhile.....
New Campaign Update!
Hello Ian,
The ‘Sondors Electric Bike’ team just posted:
1 new Announcement:
Hi Sondors eBike Backers!
Happy Friday! We wanted to provide you with some more info to help keep you in the loop as well as provide two more goodies because we believe we have the best backers ever! THANK YOU all for your continued support!
** Testing, Testing and More Testing **
Storm has been personally testing the Sondors eBike over the past weeks in a sandy/muddy/dirt location to really push the bikes to test its off-road capabilities. As he puts it,
“Passed all obstacles with flying colors. Performance was impressive.”
** Thicker Shipping Box **
We selected a thicker than standard cardboard shipping box for your Sondors eBike. These are the little things that all come together to get you your bike in the best possible way.
** New Goodies **
Adjustable Handlebars: Previously stationary, you can now adjust your handlebar height. For those who have used something similar, you know how far this goes for maximum comfort.
Pedal Assist: All Sondors eBikes will have a pedal assist feature included. Pedal Assist ensures easy start if you choose pedals instead of electric power. Also adds another pleasant way to ride the bike with extra help from battery and motor. In Storm’s words:
“I enjoyed this new feature very much and hope everyone else will appreciate it also.”
We hope you all have a great weekend! And please help spread the word on social media with hashtag @GoSondors.
And make sure to check out the Go Sondors blogfor more pics!
Sincerely,
The Go Sondors Team
Respond directly to the campaign owner here.
Help spread the word about the campaign!
To stop receiving updates from Sondors Electric Bike, click here.
You can also unsubscribe from all recurring Indiegogo emails in your account settings here.
Sincerely,
The Indiegogo Team
Explore what's on Indiegogo
EXPLORE CAMPAIGNS
[email protected]
© 2015 Indiegogo, All Rights Reserved
Customer Happiness Center | Trending Campaigns | Recent news | Email Preference Center
This email was sent to
Indiegogo · 965 Mission Street, 6th Floor · San Francisco, CA 94103 · USA
New Campaign Update!
Hello Ian,
The ‘Sondors Electric Bike’ team just posted:
1 new Announcement:
Hi Sondors eBike Backers!
Happy Friday! We wanted to provide you with some more info to help keep you in the loop as well as provide two more goodies because we believe we have the best backers ever! THANK YOU all for your continued support!
** Testing, Testing and More Testing **
Storm has been personally testing the Sondors eBike over the past weeks in a sandy/muddy/dirt location to really push the bikes to test its off-road capabilities. As he puts it,
“Passed all obstacles with flying colors. Performance was impressive.”
** Thicker Shipping Box **
We selected a thicker than standard cardboard shipping box for your Sondors eBike. These are the little things that all come together to get you your bike in the best possible way.
** New Goodies **
Adjustable Handlebars: Previously stationary, you can now adjust your handlebar height. For those who have used something similar, you know how far this goes for maximum comfort.
Pedal Assist: All Sondors eBikes will have a pedal assist feature included. Pedal Assist ensures easy start if you choose pedals instead of electric power. Also adds another pleasant way to ride the bike with extra help from battery and motor. In Storm’s words:
“I enjoyed this new feature very much and hope everyone else will appreciate it also.”
We hope you all have a great weekend! And please help spread the word on social media with hashtag @GoSondors.
And make sure to check out the Go Sondors blogfor more pics!
Sincerely,
The Go Sondors Team
Respond directly to the campaign owner here.
Help spread the word about the campaign!
To stop receiving updates from Sondors Electric Bike, click here.
You can also unsubscribe from all recurring Indiegogo emails in your account settings here.
Sincerely,
The Indiegogo Team
Explore what's on Indiegogo
EXPLORE CAMPAIGNS
[email protected]
© 2015 Indiegogo, All Rights Reserved
Customer Happiness Center | Trending Campaigns | Recent news | Email Preference Center
This email was sent to
Indiegogo · 965 Mission Street, 6th Floor · San Francisco, CA 94103 · USA
Last edited:
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