Sondors Fact Finding. Due Diligence. Scrutiny.

[scmike]

Jon Hopp is still MIA...

Wow, there's a lot of loose ends here.. Also just wondering if Agency 2.0 is back in.. what happened to
Greg Dawson and Spec Pr, http://www.specpr.com/?team=greg-dawson ... Did 2.0 swallow them up??

 

[Ann M.]

Easy now, @FTC Complaint! No need to school anyone here...it's waay too easy for anyone to get swirled into a social media trick.

 

[stevenast]

I think that's an answer to your question, @JoePah.

It's possible there could 1 or more folks who don't want to see backers actually get their bikes.

Who is wearing the tinfoil hats now?

 

[stevenast]

Have to wonder if any of our lovely trolls made some kind of allegation to US Customs to damage Storm's project?

Based on their baseless comments and libelous statements, probably a lot more likely than anything Storm has done that cause a delay.

In other words, people who are posting on this forum have the ability to get U.S. Customs to hold Sondor's containers?

 

[stevenast]

Every box with a bike is owned by a campaign contributor. Anything that comes due, any fee or duty, will be the responsibility of that person. Storm has nothing to do with this now. If CPSC sends the bikes back to China, the guy or gal with his name on the box loses.

If "Storm" did not arrange all his import ducks in a row and his products are delayed or returned to China, the responsibility is his alone. The guy or gal with her name on the box will have been screwed by the Sondors Campaign, not by the "messengers of the screwing".

 

[Ann M.]

Not very likely, it's very easy to have wrong docs, especially for lithium batteries. Too much speculation here, too little facts.

 

[stevenast]

Too much speculation here, too little facts.

Good point! What are the facts? With the Campaign's history of secrecy, lies, and plain weirdness, what can we believe?

The Storm campaign will continue to die a slow and painful death as each nail is pounded into the coffin, not to say that some folks might get a Cheap Chinese bike while others (most likely in Europe) will not.

Lot of money went to this Campaign. No bikes yet. That's two facts. Otherwise, the quote above by FTC is probably as close to the final outcome as we can get for now.

But, the dollar flow into Sondor's pocket is now, so discussion has to be now as well!

 

[George S.]

If "Storm" did not arrange all his import ducks in a row and his products are delayed or returned to China, the responsibility is his alone. The guy or gal with her name on the box will have been screwed by the Sondors Campaign, not by the "messengers of the screwing".

Like I said, when I buy stuff from China there is no Customs issue. The way this deal was structured was individual people buying from China.

There are vendors in China with websites, Ebay sellers in China, etc. I don't hear of Customs issues. No one puts any ducks in a row.

It was loose and unregulated long before Storm came along.

 

[wa5]

George S Said (QUOTE) The way this deal was structured was individual people buying from China. (END) .

Since none of us know for sure, I guess everything we say here is conjecture, but UPS has been contracted to provide logistical support. On none of the pictures of Sondors Boxes being loaded, did I see a shipping / address label, so I would "guess" that the task of attaching those will fall to UPS. until there is a bill of lading on the box, I'm gonna guess it still belongs to Ivars the fraudster.

 

[Credible Hulk]

Like I said, when I buy stuff from China there is no Customs issue. The way this deal was structured was individual people buying from China.

There are vendors in China with websites, Ebay sellers in China, etc. I don't hear of Customs issues. No one puts any ducks in a row.

It was loose and unregulated long before Storm came along.

"Loose and unregulated?" "No one puts any ducks in a row?" Here's the simplest of many US government links I found which state otherwise: (Link Removed - No Longer Exists)

Based on what I've found with a cursory search of US import/export laws, it is in fact the exporter/importer who bears the responsibility to ensure their goods are compliant. Not the recipient or buyer of those goods.

 

[pxpaulx]

pxpaulx said.... @wa5 you did kinda use Hitler in an analogy, that was in quite poor taste any way you slice it. END.

Yes in comparing really lousy delivery time for the Copenhagen and FlyKly in comparison to Storms as yet undelivered product.. and how people should expect better, NOT ONCE did I compare any person with Hitler, I was using an analogy to compare two separate, unacceptable situations. coparing bad with worse.

You'd have to be drawing a pretty long bow to suggest I was calling Storm anything nasty in that comment.

As for using Hitler (or anybody else) as a reference point, yep, it was a terrible time in history, but it did in fact occur, and if I choose to use any point in history, good or bad, as a reference I shall do so.

We can leave it at that.

It helps if you either quote (reply) or use the @ in front of members names so they know when you're responding to them if they care to be given a chance to respond!

 

[George S.]

"Loose and unregulated?" "No one puts any ducks in a row?" Here's the simplest of many US government links I found which state otherwise: (Link Removed - No Longer Exists)

Based on what I've found with a cursory search of US import/export laws, it is in fact the exporter/importer who bears the responsibility to ensure their goods are compliant. Not the recipient or buyer of those goods.

Unfortunately, there is no tie to Mr. Sondors in any of this. He is not the exporter. He is not the manufacturer. He is an agent for buyers who became importers.

Unfortunately, whatever the laws are, if an individual is buying this stuff no one is enforcing anything. If you think they should enforce it for the people who have bikes on the dock somewhere, great.

Not my problem. I buy stuff and I guess I am the importer. No one has hit me up for any duty. I'm not aware of individuals having Customs problems on individual transactions. Anyway you slice and dice this, it is individuals buying bikes in China, importing them, hoping they will get them. We don't know why they are holdig the bikes. No clue, really, just a theory that it is about duties.

To change the contractual terms of these owners may seem gallant, but it is pointless. They signed up to take the risk. If they are the ones who get hurt, in a vast sea of people who have breezed through?

 

[George S.]

George S Said (QUOTE) The way this deal was structured was individual people buying from China. (END) .

Since none of us know for sure, I guess everything we say here is conjecture, but UPS has been contracted to provide logistical support. On none of the pictures of Sondors Boxes being loaded, did I see a shipping / address label, so I would "guess" that the task of attaching those will fall to UPS. until there is a bill of lading on the box, I'm gonna guess it still belongs to Ivars the fraudster.

They never belonged to Sondors. They belonged to the manufacturer until the time they were placed in a box and loaded. At that point, they belonged to the happy new owners. That is the whole point of drop ship. You never own anything, so no one can pin legal liability to you. Each bike is different. There has to be some kind of identification. Someone is handling that bit of logistics, but Storm is not the owner of these bikes. He's not an exporter. He's not an importer. He's not a manufacturer. At best his is an agent between a factory and a person for whom a bike is being made. Perhaps he unloaded a large bag of cash on behalf of some 6,000 people wanting a bike at a great price. I hope they all understood how the thing works. For all I know the owners are both the exporter and the importer, but it doesn't matter. There is no legal link back to Sondors, and that's what IGG does.

There is no chance that Sondors would be an owner of any bike. That would open him up to product liability, shipping risks, and all sorts of legal risks. That is why there is no warehouse, no local delivery. They aren't Mr. Sondors to deal with.

 

[scmike]

George, If what you say is true and the bikes are being held for duty fees... UPS would pay the fees and pass it on to each
buyer... something like that??

 

[George S.]

George, If what you say is true and the bikes are being held for duty fees... UPS would pay the fees and pass it on to each
buyer... something like that??

I always figured one of the reasons they don't try to collect the duty from people like me (not saying I owe it) is that it is very cumbersome. UPS might not want to sort it out, for that many packages, but I don't see them paying the fees.

Maybe that works in the favor of the Sondo buyers. Everybody would look bad. The paperwork would be a nightmare. Everyone is skating on the edge. My guess is they'll open some containers, figure out the ownership complexity, and seal everything back up. Call it a day.

 

[FTC Complaint]

The way this deal was structured was individual people buying from China.

FOB DESTINATION

The way it is structured is that individuals are buying a bike from the manufacturer, who in this instance is Sondors. The manufacturer chose to produce his bikes in China with follow on import into the US. He chose UPS as his transportation vendor and then arranged for containerized shipment from his factory in China (or his OEM supplier) to UPS intermediary warehouses in the US for distribution to customers. He controlled everything.

There is no complexity to ownership as far as customs is concerned, nor is there any legal or any other ambiguity.

The way it has been handled is called FOB DESTINATION.

• Title passes to buyer when goods arrive at buyer's location
• Seller pays freight charges - In this case to UPS
• Seller bears freight charges
• Seller owns goods in transit
• Seller files claims, if any

• Implies that the seller owns the goods in transit and is responsible for freight charges and assists with the settlement of claims and is responsible for full replacement of damaged items.

• Title passes at the time the goods reach their destination - the seller retains title and control until delivered and accepted by the buyer.

STORM IS RESPONSIBLE FOR HIS OWN CONDUCT.

Why the grasping at straws here? Wake up.

 

[wa5]

We can leave it at that.

It helps if you either quote (reply) or use the @ in front of members names so they know when you're responding to them if they care to be given a chance to respond!

I generally have trouble quoting here, either the quote doesnt show in the comments field, or the page refreshes to the home page, or it just goes to white and freezes, this doesn't just happen for quoting, it also happens when I click on a subject to view, so generally I just cut and paste, funny, this time it seems to have worked and I didn't have to wait for ten minutes or retry 14 times... It only happens on this site.. fine every where else.

pxpaulx, I cant agree with PC demands to not mention something just because it was an ugly part of history, I don't and wont swear on this site, and try to treat people as they treat me, but PC for PC sake is something I wont do, looking back at my answer to you, it may have been a little harsh, no offence was intended.

 

[pxpaulx]

@wa5 gotcha on the quoting trouble! and we're good, water off a duck's back in my book.

 

[EULITTLB]

Apparently this email was just delivered to a potential owner.

I just got this e-mail: "This message was sent to you at the request of SONDORS EBIKES to notify you that the electronic shipment information below has been transmitted to UPS. Scheduled Delivery: 06-July-2015"

 

[George S.]

Thanks Ian, that's great to hear.