Sondors Fact Finding. Due Diligence. Scrutiny.

[EULITTLB]

What a superb piece by George S with excellent links. Really enjoyable and informative. As a statement of fact my own personal experience of Chris Olenik of Agency 2.0 is that he knowingly perpetuates shameful lies to deliberately spread misinformation.

It really is very worrying that a person at the centre of one of the most successful crowd-funded campaigns in history with sales (not "perks" at all) having dropped to a trickle clearly has no integrity at all. The Kreyos history is illuminating and I foresee a similar circle of blame when all goes pear-shaped for whatever reason.

Chris Olenik
7 minutes ago
@InsuranceGuy ~ Fully aware of it. We are taking appropriate action against them.

the.insurance.guy
9 minutes ago
News Flash this just in from a VERY RELIABLE source. “ian grace” was hired by a MAJOR eBike company to sabotage this campaign via social media and in the comment section of this campaign.

Again found out this morning from a very reliable source that “ian grace” was hired to spam and sabotage this campaign by a very large eBike company.

""AND NOW WE KNOW THE REST OF THE STORY""

 

[Admin]

It also needs the inner triangle free from obstruction; hence the big yellow box puts the bike out of compliance;

This point has been scrutinized a bit and I wanted to add some data and resources for people... I'm not sure whether the plastic box is allowed or not but here's some information I've gathered (along with some that was messaged to me). In the image below (and linked cpsc.gov site here) note the shaded area "around" the top tube. I believe that it extends below the top tube in the diagram to demonstrate the same "top" area on a step-thru frame. In short, it seems like the triangle are of a bike can have obstructions (as shown with the tiny white area in the diagram below... demonstrating low-step bikes).



(6) A bicycle may not have any protrusions within the shaded area of Diagram 1. However, control cables up to ¼ inch thick and cable clamps made of material not thicker than 3/16 inch may be attached to the top tube.

I was told that this ruling came about when shift levers were attached to the top tube and injuries were occurring because of it. Hence the term protrusions and not obstruction is used. The image below is something I found while searching online, added the arrow to highlight the "illegal protrusions" of the old fashioned shifters.



"Some hazardous components such as top-tube shift levers have been driven off the market by lawsuits, which are a powerful force in improving industry standards and government regulation." - Source. I wonder if any lawsuits will come of the Sondors campaign and if so, what for? I'm not a huge fan of government intervention... bureaucracy and inefficiency but if there are rules in place, it's not fair for one company to skirt around them while others are made to conform and endure higher costs.

[I muted a few great responses that called into question whether the yellow box would or would not be allowed... and highlighted other filled-in triangles on Stealth electric bikes (thanks @RedDwarf). Great thoughts guys, trying to keep opinions about how it will be handled to a minimum but wanted to represent the core of your points here.]

 

[Ann M.]

A lot has gone into the most recent developments of Lithium batteries! After a couple of FedEX air freight planes wrecked and some pilots & staff were injured (or died) then safety regulations changed radically. On top of that US and European feed back on poor quality lithium cells has forced the Chinese manufacturing plants to improve quality & safety of their products. LEVA, A123 and Samsung have info on this; will dig more tomorrow and get links, too late tonite!

 

[wa5]

I'm thinking this would be an example of "not ok"..... I think "D'oh" might be appropriate .

http://www.ebay.com.au

 

[EULITTLB]

It was stated somewhere in these numerous Sondors threads that a 350/380 watt engine would not be legal in the UK.

Some comments/observations:

1. BH sells the Neo Cross in the UK with a 350 watt drive that's limited to 250 watts. Therefore, Sondors could do the same.

http://e-motionevc.co.uk

2. A 350/380 watt engine can be sold legally in certain countries (besides the US) without any changes being needed. For instance, Switzerland authorizes 500 watt drives for pedelecs that are limited to 25km/h. Such vehicles are the legal equivalent of regular bicycles. Austria also has a similar law, but sets the power limit to 600 watts.

1. To be road legal in the UK the motor must be a maximum 250w with speed capped at 15.5mph. The bike in its present spec can not be used on the roads in the UK/EU - it also has no reflectors or a bell (there are also ebikes for sale in the UK with 1000w off-road options too!) I have sought a response from Sondors to clarify the position for UK/EU users and whether the charger is 220-240v compliant, there has been no response whatsoever. Bruce Choate believes it unlikely there will be an EU version with which I agree, but it is just guesswork. Indisputably there is a global campaign to sell bikes to different territories with no forethought or clarification from the Campaign Owner.

2. Switzerland is outside of the EU legislation and has its own rules, interesting to note that Austria has the higher power classification and presumably to do with the sometimes hilly terrain but the speed limitation is still there and the Sondors would not comply without adaptation.

 

[EULITTLB]

Court this may be outside of this thread but consider the stipulations on the IGG Website

Contributors are solely responsible for asking questions and investigating Campaign Owners and Campaigns to the extent they feel is necessary before making a Contribution.

Campaign owners are also obliged by IGG's Terms and Conditions to answer questions truthfully and promptly.

Comment: When a Campaign Owner does not answer questions truthfully and promptly apart from leaving him or herself open to suspicion and well-founded concern, I wonder what the position of IGG is, or the legal position is? IGG appear state these things on their website but then do absolutely nothing to enforce them.

 

[wa5]

(RedDwart Said)
If the bike is not legal for import into the UK then those that live in the UK should not be backing this project. ( do your due-diligence ) its not up to the campaign owners to make sure the bike is legal in the UK.

(END)

Its a little difficult to do one's "Due diligence" and get the answers one needs, when the business owner refuses to answer any questions.

I have seen advertisements for the Storm on Australian websites, I've heard similar reports from the UK and other countries. Storm has embarked on an international campaign... and is most definitely responsible for ensuring the bike meets all conditions in any territory in which they choose to sell the product. Or they need to note that the product is not suitable for use in those territories.

I've heard of little or no communication coming out of Sondors / 2.0 / IGG, if you could point me to a person or place where I could ask and expect an answer to my questions, that would be great?

 

[George S.]

If you want to hit the link, you will see that the EU requirements just for EMC are, well, very, very heavy. What's EMC? Electro-magnetic Compatibility. This site requires that you register, so you probably won't do it. But this is what Sondors would have to do:

The Directive specifies legally-binding protection requirements. As far as the above-mentioned pedelecs are concerned, most of these requirements are covered by EN 15194. However, the European standardisation institute CEN should review EN 15194 to ensure that all obligations resulting from the Directive are covered by the standard. The publication of a reference to the standard in the Official Journal would then turn EN 15194 into a harmonised standard under the EMC Directive. That would mean that a pedelec that complies with EN 15194 would be presumed to comply with Directive 2004/108/EC.

http://www.bike-eu.com/Laws-Regulat...ibility-BIK004234W/?intcmp=terug-naar-artikel

I think Bruce Choate made some comments about EU and the power of the Sondors. Bruce is a solid supporter of the Sondors bike. We had a nice discussion. He's a real ebike guy. (But) He mentioned me in answering Ian's question about the EU motor watts, and the EU is way above my pay grade. This level of regulation is crazy. How do you do these tests? Well, you get access to one of the dynamometers in the attached PDF. Remember, this isn't even the power output test, as such.

What Court said, and probably something that unites us all, is that excess regulation is a bad thing. The EU is pretty impossible. Who does this hurt? It doesn't hurt Accell, with loads of money. It hurts the little guy.

It is fair to ask how Sondors and, really, A2.0 have dealt with the liability and regulatory issues. Is it OK to try to push it off on the buyer, to immunize yourself, and not pay those costs (like liability insurance)?

It would be unfair to kill off Sondors with excess regulation, but he is stuck with the EU rules if he ships anywhere in that Union.

We basically regulate with liability law in this country. You get punished in that manner. The big question with Sondors is whether he has set this deal up well enough to avoid future liability. That's it, if they produce a bike.

If you dig around the A 2.0 websites, you'll see how these campaigns are put together. People have assumed because the ebike campaign was stupid, with obvious mistakes, that the nuts and bolts of the campaign are equally dumb. That's probably not true. The odds are, they have crafted this campaign to (deal with) US liability laws, but there is probably a lot of theory and guesswork, and it's way bigger than anyone predicted. I don't think they realize the depth of their potential liability, or just the costs to avoid liability once legal papers have been served.

(Link Removed - No Longer Exists)

 

[FTC Complaint]

Wait till they have done something wrong

False advertising is illegal 50 miles vs a known 10-15 mile range because this is a known product not an invention. This provable, factual, and illegal issue is not conjecture. People have purchased the bike based on this illegal representation. Storm has failed to remedy.

 

[RedDwarf]

Hello Guys

TBH FTC the range could be 100 miles it depends on how much one peddles. And why has my post been deleted???


Ride on mates

 

[EULITTLB]

As an indisputable statement of fact none of the contributors has made a direct purchase at all of anything, they have contributed on a non-refundable basis to a work in progress and will get what they are given, if anything. How can you swamp the competition when you selling a price point? When contributors are rewarded wih their perks after paying sales taxes and for accessories, and the performance of the ebike is known, only then we will know about customer satisfaction and what integrity this Campaign has. There are plenty more hoops to jump through rather then making claims and promises to hit a ridiculously low price point.

 

[wa5]

Courtesy of IndieGoGos comments page. proudly sponsored by Theodore Voltaire
Tom Gin
2 hours ago
Sonders is enroute to or now in Asia – probably China to as he states – to finalize production of several million worth of E Bikes. I cheerfully applaud our position one and all. In the “Updates” you will see this initial order is for the first 1000 or so – or more? It’s a big job to distribute in the USA and around the world. I’m impressed with the daunting task. Note we were asked to poll on what extras we’d like most – so maybe a nice surprise is in the works?

END QUOTE...............................



First order is for 1000 or more bikes.. were there not something like 7500 bikes ordered before the official end of the first campaign? Did Storm not say the builder could handle a single production run of 12 to 14 thousand... why would you only do 1000? ( I put this in the due diligence thread because I think it may be significant).

 

[EULITTLB]

No mention is made of an order for 1000 bikes in the latest update, but it makes sense, I don't know where the guy you quoted gets his information/hearsay from - 12-14000 bikes production run is total BS - now they have to manage as best they can given the statements made and they will fall short in every department, most notably in logistics and performance.

Hello Ian,

Here’s an update for you from the ‘Sondors Electric Bike’ team:

1 new Announcement:

Manufacturing Update

Storm is off to begin the manufacturing, check out his note below!

There will be more photos on the way throughout his journey.

Note from Storm

Hi All, Storm here! THANK YOU for being a part of this community... I truly believe we're doing something great here.

I wanted to provide a quick update that I'm headed out this week to meet with the manufacturing team to finalize details and I'll be sharing photos from my trip.

So stay tuned and check back soon!

Cheers,

Storm

Rewards Program

As a Thank You for your support, Storm will be extending the Rewards Program for each of our current backers, allowing each of you a bit longer to earn your shipping for free or at a significantly reduced rate.

 

[FTC Complaint]

Unfortunately, and in several places, state law has failed to accommodate electric bikes and thus have put some riders (in various states and localities) in the unenviable position of being a scoff-law or law breaker. I firmly disagree with laws that prevent the adoption of ebikes. Nevertheless, people are entitled to know the truth (rather than falsehoods) as to whether or not these bikes can be legally operated on "State" roads. There are unanswered questions on the Storm fund-raising site in regards to law in Ohio, other states, and Europe.

From what I can tell, from Ohio DOT and DMV, ebikes are illegal in Ohio with bicycles defined as human powered only.

Beyond the false representation, "street legal," the real kicker is that the question remains unanswered and truth is obstructed.

The campaign needs to remedy by providing factual information, answering questions to fact, and then refunding sales as needed or as requested.

 

[FTC Complaint]

The false representation as "street legal" against the reality where the bike may be illegal in many states. (it was the responsibility of the campaign to review of the specifics prior to making a representation) But is is clear that "street legal" everywhere in the US is false and not by a small margin. As an ebike advocate I find State Law in the US to be quite unfortunate, totally unfair, incredibly shortsighted, and massively outdated; nevertheless this does not change fact. Ebikes are illegal to operate in much of the US. It does show how ready and easily the lies regarding this offering flow without accountability.

 

[PowerMe]

It really is ridiculous since road riders in decent shape easily reach speeds up to 20mph on their bikes, powered by their own legs and nothing else. Yet someone else who isn't nearly as strong and would be perfectly happy to be able roll along at 15mph with some assistance, is barred from doing so in certain states. I'm glad I don't live in one of those states!

 

[J.R.]

It really is ridiculous since road riders in decent shape easily reach speeds up to 20mph on their bikes, powered by their own legs and nothing else. Yet someone else who isn't nearly as strong and would be perfectly happy to be able roll along at 15mph with some assistance, is barred from doing so in certain states. I'm glad I don't live in one of those states!

@PowerMe it's early days for ebikes, it takes time to sort all this out. Ebikes are still so new that people just don't know anything about them and that includes politicians. I live way the L out in the country, I never see another ebiker. I see plenty of road, mountain and hybrid bikes but I've only come across one other ebiker. When I try to explain ebikes to friends, family and neighbors they just think it's a moped. Pennsylvania just accepted and legalized ebikes in 2014, I expect more states to follow fairly quickly, we just need to educate our governments. It's up to us to do that, the (your/our) state doesn't make ebikes legal or illegal, we do!

 

[FTC Complaint]

The same false claim echos from Internet "article" to "article" without a single question raised;

http://ecomento.com/2015/03/16/sondors-electric-bike-raises-3-7-million/

False claims can be made with total impunity.

 

[wa5]

(QUOTE SONDORS INDEX OF LIES)
According to Sondors, the new bike can easily navigate through snow, sand, mud, and other tough terrains.
(END QUOTE)

only the "right type" of sand though...

 

[wa5]

Update from Storm on tooling / injection molding:

Storm and team are working on finishing Pro E (final) drawings to be released for tooling.

Next step is to actually cut parts in steel. Process is going smooth without any hiccup's or challenges.

Storm wanted to give you a sense of what the tool/injection molding shop looks like. In the images you can see CNC machines which are used to cut steel tooling, injection molding machines which we will use to injection mold housing for your Sondors ebike!

The tooling shop looks empty due to storm taking pictures during lunch hour while the majority of people were out to eat.

He also took pics of the mill which is used to touch up steel tooling by hand if any minor adjustments are needed.

There’s an image in there of one of the workers hand polishing tools as an example.

Latest update from Storm from China.

Some questions: Apart from the plastic battery / centre cover, all items on this bike are "off the shelf". Why show us so much tool making equipment? all parts of the bike are already being manufactured, no new tooling required. Even the centre cover may be currently available if pictures on John Hopps f/b page are accurate.

Both the yellow / orange bike and the invisible "second bike" (that nobody has ever seen) were said to be "Production bikes".. Not "prototypes".. so again, why the need for tooling?

Even if they are building the frame on site, where are the assembly areas? Welders? Paintshop? I see Storm in a Factory, not necessarily a bike factory (could be any type of factory and any time in the last five years).

Given the amount of doubt hovering over this campaign (and Storm must surely be aware of that doubt) would it not make sense to give ones investors a bit more information and a few more pictures, to try and alleviate that doubt? but he gives us seven pictures...

Just another page of a campaign that is so far from transparent and informative its a joke. The promoters have appeared to go out of their way to provide either misinformation, or none at all, That it makes it hard to trust anything they say.

JoePah, So far, Storm still hasn't delivered a single bike.