Sondors Fact Finding. Due Diligence. Scrutiny.

JoePah said:
Looks like Storm is moving along with the manufacturing set up. Faster than any ebike startup I've seen.

How much of a dent has he made in ebike sales for everyone else?
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That is because they don't need to do anything! but purchase an existing e:bike from one of many Chinese companies and stamp their own logo on it. All the tooling is already in place! (save the big yellow plastic box). The process is called OEM where an existing product is re-branded. Oh how far we have fallen where marketing and branding has been confused with manufacturing.
 
if John Hopps facebook page is any indication, the yellow box is already a production item, FTC.
 
Good post Trev, actually if any bikes are actually assembled it does not reassure me, it is the quality control, standard of bike construction, performance issues and the support for owners that concerns me. Taking a bike to market with a team of one is unheard of, business is not about taking a big fat cheque to a foreign factory having misled many contributors and then shipping 7000 bikes worldwide; it is just a ludicrous proposition. I had email contact with a bike manufacturer on another issue and they too commented that the flaws in the Sondors Campaign aren't difficult to see.
 
a new update from Storm & Co... and its a little concerning... in the first picture they state that "Manufacturing has started..." I apologise for the lousy picture, only way I could get a copy of it was to photograph my screen, its on storms f/b page, perhaps somebody can get a better copy?

The frames behind him don't appear to be painted in colours that the stormbike has been advertised as being available. IE red or white. oh, and the price apparently rises by $650 on Friday... how many do you reckon they will sell?

Theres also a video of forks being Mig Welded... on the storm f/b page
 

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The next picture says "Pricing increases ?Friday".. and shows a couple of bright yellow bike frames... if they are intended to portray Sondors bikes, it is a flat out deception... one can only hope their IT guy put the picture up for illustration purposes only... unless Sondors is getting very generous, I doubt his bike will have rear suspension...
 

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and some comments from "investors"

 
I was looking at a bike from one of this web site's sponsors. Kalkhoff, they have a really nice looking AGATTU IMPULSE 8 HS. I used to own a really nice Kalkhoff race bike and I have a lot of respect for their quality. One of the interesting points is that the Agattu shows a 36V 17Ah battery - twice the capacity of the Sondors. What is different about the bike though that gives it an advertised range of 205 km? That is really impressive! Or does this range have some severe caveats to it? I wonder if those same range estimates and caveats were used by the Sondors marketing campaign. Sometime in an industry performance figures are inflated by all in order to show the product in the best light and to allow for a comparison to other vendors who have also inflated their performance figures.
 
Nick Hull said:
I was looking at a bike from one of this web site's sponsors. Kalkhoff, they have a really nice looking AGATTU IMPULSE 8 HS. I used to own a really nice Kalkhoff race bike and I have a lot of respect for their quality. One of the interesting points is that the Agattu shows a 36V 17Ah battery - twice the capacity of the Sondors. What is different about the bike though that gives it an advertised range of 205 km? That is really impressive! Or does this range have some severe caveats to it? I wonder if those same range estimates and caveats were used by the Sondors marketing campaign. Sometime in an industry performance figures are inflated by all in order to show the product in the best light and to allow for a comparison to other vendors who have also inflated their performance figures.
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The Kalkoff bike could possibly get that mileage given it is a highly integrated and refined system with a torque sensor computer and the assist-ive mid drive motor rear-gearing requiring you to contribute most of the input under ideal conditions. The system has been designed to restrict the amount of battery used in favor of your input as it assists you!

I am more than certain, since they mention it, that the Kalkoff has been fully tested. More than that, a legitimate company stands behind the product.

Here is the main point between the $500 Storm-Sondors vs the +$3000 Kalkhoff; the expectations of the Storm are outrageous based on the representations made by an advertising campaign, that is not the case with the Kalkhoff where you pay a reasonable price for a premium product and will most likely have your expectations fulfilled based on the expectations they have made and set.

So NO, not everyone lies in-order to dump a product on a hapless consumer; see Kreyos watch.
 
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wa5 said:
Does it even need to be mentioned that the "bong bike "frame in the above picture isn't a storm? Is Mr Sondors truly that clueless, that he thinks it is from his bike, or does he think that the investors are that stupid?
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None of the update photos contain any Sondors frame or components, which is a bit odd. I'm sure they'll be working on it next.o_O
 
The heading of one of the pictures posted by Storm says "The production Process has begun"..

Not "planning Process" or "Tech drawing Process" or " Prototype Process" or "finishing final drawings to be released for tooling"... it clearly states "PRODUCTION PROCESS"...

If you have any trouble with this, I'll include a screen shot..

You will notice the shot was not taken in a drafting room or even in front of a computer with CAD software... but in front of an area where there are a heap of bike frames, and it would be reasonable to assume bicycle manufacture is taking place...
 

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Who on here wants to see the Sondors bike succeed? It's like watching Fox News - they can make anything sound bad if they try hard enough.

From my understanding the Pro E drawings are for the CNC to build the injection mold tooling for the battery box. The bike parts/factory photo - none of them are for the Sondors bike, they are for a different bike.
 
Nick Hull said:
Who on here wants to see the Sondors bike succeed?
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I think Storm-Sondors has already succeeded given that they have raised a tremendous amount of money. Most of the "articles" to date speak about the success of the campaign, and what a success it was because they were able to raise close to $4,000,000 in a short amount of time.

Over lunch I spoke to a commercial insurance executive who knows nothing about ebikes and I described what was going on with the Storm campaign. He said, "Oh, they were able to pre-sell bikes using crowd funding and they are going to take an existing design and farm it out to a Chinese manufacturer and make a small margin per bike." In this case they are going to take an existing Chinese design and cookie cutter it out at low cost. A small margin for Storm-Sondors is a good thing for Storm-Sondors, Agency 2.0, and Indiegogo.

My concern resides with the "future ebike buyer," and the future of ebikes as a valuable method of transportation in America. There is money to provide gross margin, but not enough money to provide for post sales support, insurance, returns, warranty, recalls, repairs, and strict liability. This bike does a major disservice to ebikes because it will be dumped on consumers without consideration for post-sales costs and elements necessary to make it a worthwhile consumer product.

The marketing engine pumped a dream up on false representations, and a cheap ebike will be dumped on consumers without recourse.

As to those that purchased the pre-sale of a Storm-Sondors ebike; is this a good thing for them? Let the buyer beware.
 
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If people have funded the Sondors campaign, they should be aware of the risks and limitations. If this bike were on sale at WalMart, I would expect a different set of limitations. If I were to buy all the components and build a similar bike myself, I would know the risks.

I think that at this point all the false marketing representations have been 'outed'. It's a shame that marketers either stretch the truth, make mistakes or outright lie, but we live in a world where the 'miracle pill' will make you lost 100 lbs and the $25k car that you bought will do the mileage that is on the window sticker. Is it so bad?

I am a funder for the Sondors campaign. I hope to receive a bike. I hope that the bike is functional and lasts well. If it doesn't I would say that I knew the risks going in and it didn't work out this time. No risk, no reward.

However... I disagree with the comments eluding to damaging the reputation of eBikes. I really think that the truth of *some* bikes from *some* manufacturers has been exposed and that truth is that there are sometimes outrageous profit margins and the industry keeps the price of the 'green' option artificially high. The Sondors bike is your entry level eBike. It's the Kia of bikes in a Mercedes world. It's fascinating to watch this story unfold and to examine the motives of the nay-sayers. After all, if you have no interest in buying a Sondors bike, then why spend so much time dragging it down?
 
I hope everyone that donated money to Sondors and company, get a bike and that it gives them pleasure. This whole internet campaign has been ugly from both sides. Those that gave money became defensive of their decision, who among us hasn't done this at some point in our lives. Than you have the skeptics, likely people who have been taken at some point in there lives. Good people on all sides that had representatives on their own internet campaigns and it has gotten ugly. It is a small minority, tiny really, of both camps that has gotten ugly and that minority has had a negative effect on the rest of us. "Mommy he's looking at me", I hate to see grown men and women being childish. I was just waiting for that first 30 days to expire for cooler heads to prevail and than BOOM an extension! I wasn't happy that I would have to endure more postings here on EBR, ugly postings. I've grown to really enjoy this EBR community and don't want it ruined, I guess that's my childishness "don't mess up my sandbox". Hopefully it is winding down now and those cooler heads will come into play.

Just random thoughts, not in response to anyone other than to add that I want those that donated their hard earned money to Sondors to get a bike!

:)Peace.
 
1) If people have funded the Sondors campaign, they should be aware of the risks and limitations.

--There is no way that folks are aware of the risks and limitations of this bike.
--A "marketing effort" has controlled and dominated the information landscape
--A defective bike can easily cause injury or death.

2) If I were to buy all the components and build a similar bike myself, I would know the risks.

--Were you to build a bike you would be better aware of the risks and limitations.
--The lies of this campaign would have been immediately identifiable.

3) I think that at this point all the false marketing representations have been 'outed'.

--Absolutely not!
--There has been zero press pointing out the false representations
--The marketing effort has not responded to press inquires nor have they corrected any misstatements.
--False representations are still made as part of a prolific advertising campaign.

4) I am a funder for the Sondors campaign. I hope to receive a bike.

--You will most likely get a bike

5) I hope that the bike is functional and lasts well. If it doesn't I would say that I knew the risks going in and it didn't work out this time. No risk, no reward.

--The bike will be commensurate with the cost

6) However... I disagree with the comments eluding to damaging the reputation of eBikes.

--You are disagreeing without experience or fact.
--All you need to do is visit an established bicycle shop and ask them why they don't sell ebikes, talk to a distributor of bike parts, or talk to a specialty store
--CPSC will keep records of the failures
--Insurance industry currently does not have underwriting metrics on ebikes (and the failures here will be factored in)
--This campaign damages the market as it makes the sale of a legitimate product more difficult.


7) I really think that the truth of *some* bikes from *some* manufacturers has been exposed and that truth is that there are sometimes outrageous profit margins and the industry keeps the price of the 'green' option artificially high.

--There is limited margin on quality battery packs, limited! because they have been tested, certified, and insured.
--There is limited margin from companies developing new technology such as Bosch and other who have put millions into building a refined product that meets western standards.
--When you factor in post-sales support, and the costs of legitimacy, there is less margin than you would think. It is very unlikely that these bikes will in any way be supported on a post-sales basis.


8) The Sondors bike is your entry level eBike. It's the Kia of bikes in a Mercedes world.

It would not even be a YUGO. A better analogy would be Chinese car with asbestos doors, poison pet food, or toxic flooring from lumber liquidators.

9) It's fascinating to watch this story unfold and to examine the motives of the nay-sayers. After all, if you have no interest in buying a Sondors bike, then why spend so much time dragging it down?

It is part of the realization process. People in the industry immediately realized the bogus nature of this campaign. Dan Tynan figured this out and published a retraction once he found fact.

You will too when you get delivery of your product.
 
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1) This whole internet campaign has been ugly from both sides.

There would be no controversy and "no ugliness" were the campaign truthful.

2) Those that gave money became defensive of their decision, who among us hasn't done this at some point in our lives.

That is called rationalization. You are trying to rationalize your decision. It is the opposite of objectivity.

3) I was just waiting for that first 30 days to expire for cooler heads to prevail and than BOOM an extension!

You are getting "jerked around" by a professional marketing campaign' that will milk the tit of the cash cow until it stops. The tit seems to be running dry as the dream is harder to sell at a higher price point. The higher the price point the less gullible the buyers are. See Kreyos watch because it is the same marketing folks behind this campaign.

4) Fear on not getting a bike

That is part of the rationalization process as well. You are going to get what you paid for; a cheap substandard Chinese bike and not much more. The marketeers will deliver a product (any product) otherwise they would face fraud charges.
 
I really do not see how this bike would damage the existing eBike market. It might damage some existing eBike companies but not the actual market. The Sondors bike is a lousy bike. Yes, the Walmart bike. If the market gets flooded and these bikes start breaking down then there is a major opportunity for bike shops or bike repair professionals to offer repair services or to scoop them up cheap and resell them again. Good for the ebike market in that it provides additional opportunities for others.

It should not make much of a dent with actual 'sophisticated' ebikes with computerized power management and advanced pedaling sensors. Those bikes are in a different league and they should cost more. This effect could help drive some prices down and that is not a bad thing. There is still a lot of margins for people to make money. Look at it from a conventional bike perspective. There are many regular bikes out there that cost 3000 dollars. Those have quality components and come with solid service and warranty. That is a baseline from which to start when evaluating a high quality ebike. -- not from Sondors $500 POS bike.

I don't want to dump on the Sondors bike too much. I still think some people will have a lot of fun with it around the beach or some flat neighborhoods.
 
Nick Hull said:
If people have funded the Sondors campaign, they should be aware of the risks and limitations. If this bike were on sale at WalMart, I would expect a different set of limitations. If I were to buy all the components and build a similar bike myself, I would know the risks.

I think that at this point all the false marketing representations have been 'outed'. It's a shame that marketers either stretch the truth, make mistakes or outright lie, but we live in a world where the 'miracle pill' will make you lost 100 lbs and the $25k car that you bought will do the mileage that is on the window sticker. Is it so bad?

I am a funder for the Sondors campaign. I hope to receive a bike. I hope that the bike is functional and lasts well. If it doesn't I would say that I knew the risks going in and it didn't work out this time. No risk, no reward.

However... I disagree with the comments eluding to damaging the reputation of eBikes. I really think that the truth of *some* bikes from *some* manufacturers has been exposed and that truth is that there are sometimes outrageous profit margins and the industry keeps the price of the 'green' option artificially high. The Sondors bike is your entry level eBike. It's the Kia of bikes in a Mercedes world. It's fascinating to watch this story unfold and to examine the motives of the nay-sayers. After all, if you have no interest in buying a Sondors bike, then why spend so much time dragging it down?
Click to expand...

The Sondors is kinda a walmart bike - I wouldn't expect much from a mongoose dolomite (the cheap walmart fat bike), nor would I have high expectations for the Sondors bike if I were to get one. The average buyer is likely going to use it recreationally around their neighborhood and local paths - and as long as they themselves don't ride like maniacs and give electric bikes a bad name, and those same buyers have a realistic expectation of what they will be getting, the campaign as a whole doesn't bother me a whole lot. That does assume the bikes are delivered, which I hope they are. I don't see a reason they wouldn't be, you can order bikes that are nicer directly on alibaba for not much more than the asking price anyway! Its just that though...who wants to deal with buying one bike from China through Alibaba? That is where the crowdfunding makes some sort of sense.

One other thing I'd add, these are more like the Lada of ebikes, Kia gives you the best warranty in the business! I kid :)
 
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