Smooth Tune vs. Archon X1

[TomD]

@pushkar, have you (or Innotrace) run any comparisons of the stock controller with smooth tune settings vs. Archon X1? Users who have programmed smooth tune on their stock controllers seem to be quite happy, although hard to say how well it compares to the upgraded controller as nobody has tested both for comparison. I would test but the prospect of swapping out motors for a third time (and then back) sounds as appealing as going back to a bad girlfriend.

Bafang Ultra "Smooth" tune by Mike at Frey

So recently I decided to scrap all of my original ideas, which all seemed to dead end, and try something completely new. I went back to all of the original settings, and when I test drove that, it reminded me how bad those setting really are. No point detailing, if you're reading this you likely...

electricbikereview.com

 

[pennybags]

Smooth tune? Is that on the CAN version ?

 

[TomD]

No, it's basically tuning parameters for the UART version. See link. Those that have tried it say it solves many issues with the stock tuning. Doesn't help with the CAN version (initial reports are it's just as bad as the stock UART).

 

[Gionnirocket]

The silence here speaks to the comments I've made elsewhere.
I do feel the X1 is probably a bit better.
But perhaps the statistics touted are a tuned X1 best case scenario vs a stock no tuning done UART controller in its worse case scenario... as is often the case with bench top results used for marketing.
That said if I owned an Ultra... I think the X1 would be on the short list of upgrades.

 

[TomD]

I reached out directly to Innotrace to see if they had compared efficiency gains and smoothness vs. stock controller with smooth tune. I don't think they understood the question (may have got lost in translation) so I re-asked the question and waiting for a reply. That said, here is their initial response (mostly comparing to stock controller with stock programming):

there are various differences and I will only go into a few of them.

1. the Bafang stock controller has no temperature control. This means that if you ride for a long time with a lot of power, the insulation of the coils of your motor will burn. Once that happens, your motor will have steadily less power until death.

Our controller has a sophisticated temperature management system. From 120°C we throttle down the power and would shut down at 140°C.

2. BLCD vs. FOC - there are several scientific papers about this.

3. updateability is given with our controller. We are constantly developing the firmware and always bring new firmware updates to the market. These constantly improve the stability of the system but also the energy consumption.

This energy consumption is already about 30% lower with the same driving style compared to the original controller.

4. short-circuit protection is available on all inputs of the INNOTRACE controller. Where previously the complete controller was defective when the main cable was torn off due to a fall, now only the main cable needs to be replaced.

I hope to run my own tests when a friend of mine gets their Hydra with Archon X1. They also have a FLX Blade with stock controller so can do some test rides to compare, including before and after upgrading settings to "smooth tune". It will obviously be quite subjective, and harder to test efficiency gains. I'm most curious to compare whether things like power oscillation and fade are noticeably solved by smooth tune.

 

[scrambler]

Interesting to hear about the temperature control!

 

[TomD]

Follow up reply from innotrace (they didn't comment on smoothness, I'm guessing they haven't compared to a stock motor with smooth tune):

as smooth tune is only a change of settings the efficiency could not be better than the stock. We get our better efficiency mostly because of the use of FOC.

I do recall some users reporting that tuning helped with efficiency, innotrace seems to disagree.

 

[theemartymac]

Follow up reply from innotrace (they didn't comment on smoothness, I'm guessing they haven't compared to a stock motor with smooth tune):



I do recall some users reporting that tuning helped with efficiency, innotrace seems to disagree.

Depending on how you want to evaluate efficiency, my smooth tune saw 'maybe' 15% battery range improvement with the smooth tune on a 2020 model year stock controller (Rize Bike). My riding style is generally mid-high assist levels and high-speed long-distance commuting. Definitely something, but also definitely not 30% like the Archon is advertising.

The other dramatic improvements within the smooth tune, satisfy my needs completely right now. I am aware of the potential long-term heat issues with my riding style, but if/when it eventually fries, my plan is to get an Archon replacement motor/controller to see first hand what the hubbub is all about.

 

[Gionnirocket]

Depending on how you want to evaluate efficiency, my smooth tune saw 'maybe' 15% battery range improvement with the smooth tune on a 2020 model year stock controller (Rize Bike). My riding style is generally mid-high assist levels and high-speed long-distance commuting. Definitely something, but also definitely not 30% like the Archon is advertising.

The other dramatic improvements within the smooth tune, satisfy my needs completely right now. I am aware of the potential long-term heat issues with my riding style, but if/when it eventually fries, my plan is to get an Archon replacement motor/controller to see first hand what the hubbub is all about.

Not apples to apples as I have no experience with the Ultra, but I can say that I've gained about 20% on the BBS02B compared to how it was received especially now that I've tweaked the Stop Decay setting.
I didn't expect a different answer from Innotrace...I mean what else were they FOC'ing going to say.

 

[Jon A]

I don't think tuning the stock controller can make the motor more efficient under the proper Engineering definition of efficiency. So if you ride at a certain speed on throttle only, you probably won't see much of a difference. However, you can make the bike much more efficient when in use the way many will use it. A couple of examples:

A tune (such as the Frey or similar) can require you to pedal much harder to access max power for a given PAS mode. This will significantly increase the bike's efficiency PAS mode for PAS mode. You'll either go more slowly using less power, you'll be pedaling harder to go the same speed adding more leg power into the equation and using less power, or go faster using the same amount of power resulting in less battery per distance traveled.

With the stock tune, the lowest PAS mode is 30% power and you don't need to pedal very hard to get it. With the Ultra, that's similar to "Turbo Mode" on many other bikes--obviously not very economical. My bike is tuned so PAS 1 is limited to 15% and you have to pedal harder to get it. This will greatly extend the range of the bike for a long touring "Eco ride" compared with the stock tune. It's also a good option to have when you're worried you may run out of battery before you get home.

The stock controller tune has a battery cutoff setting of 41V (at least mine did). Many view this to be overly conservative as most batteries we use have a cutoff built into the BMS somewhere around 35V. While that may be good for battery longevity, you are leaving a lot of range on the table. Lowering this to 38-39V gives you access to that battery power for the rare occasion you may need to run it down that far to get home. While that technically doesn't change efficiency, it does give you a longer range with the same battery.

 

[Gionnirocket]

I think the efficiency gained is in how the power is applied. The stock program is way too aggressive and sloppy.
See what happens with your gas mileage when the only way to maintain your speed and/or accelerate is to mash the gas pedal to the floor.

 

[rtp]

With WW’s new site, is there a way to get an Ultra and innotrace/X1 controller other than buying a Hydra at this point? (in the US)

 

[TomD]

From what I understand the global chip shortages are holding them back from being able to upgrade the newer canbus motors until next year, but otherwise it's ready to go. I'm guessing the chip shortage is also impacting the ability to upgrade the older UART controllers other than the stock they already have. In practical terms even if you were to order a Hydra now it's doubtful you would have it before next year due to other supply chain issues.

 

[rtp]

Bumping this thread back up as it's relevant to discussions in other threads.
@TomD Did you by any chance ever have the opportunity to compare the Archon/Innotrace Ultra to a Smooth Tuned Ultra?
(or has anyone?)

What Innotrace responded with is true (e.g. FOC > Bafang OE controller BLCD), but Bafang also has firmware updates. How often have Archon owners seen updates?

The temp control bit is interesting and probably valid.

FWIW, M600 thermal cutoff with the LudiV2 is 120* vs the 140* Innotrace sets on the Ultra. Not surprising given the difference in motors, and I'm not positive if the thermal limits are being hit at the motor components or the controller...

Most of this is just curiosity as I'm happy with my X2 LudiV2, but not ruling out an Innotrace/Archon Ultra at some future point when they are more readily available, and have seen claims of assist not engaging on the Archon until 1/3rd to 1/8th of a crank rotation so have some curiosity there as I suspect it's just a configuration setting and is different than my X2 performs (some assist is nearly instant..).

 

[TomD]

I didn't have a chance to compare yet. My buddy just got his hydra and lives on the other side of the mountains so will wait untl spring to drop by.

 

[rtp]

Thanks @TomD - hopefully someone will be able to do one at some point, or maybe I'll find someone local with a Hydra or even Z1 (which will then configure if it's not if they let me )

FWIW, I must have followed a bad link. Puskkar's Archon video is still online here:

Meanwhile, the manual in English from Innotrace is available here: download (Innotrace User Manual, English)
And the Ludi V2 for M600 here: DOWNLOAD THE LATEST USER MANUAL (Ludi V2 controller, M600)

Something I found interesting in both Pushkar and the Innotrace manual (really doesn't have much more info in it than Pushkar's video..) is the 'torque sensitivity' explanation. Pushkar's explanation is you're basically adjusting the percentage of sensor input weights between torque and cadence sensors, where a the higher the value, the more ghost pedaling/purely cadence-driven you'll be. Innotrace's reads differently, as: "
Sensitivity of the torque sensor. The higher the value, the less force I need when pedaling to get the set maximum power." Those could be somewhat at odds with each other, or could be essentially the same, as e.g. wouldn't a +800% or more power magnification coming from torque sensor input feel like you're just ghost pedaling but still using the torque sensor as input?

Meanwhile, the actual ramp-up or # of discrete steps (which can be seen in the Bafang software tool and is explained pretty well in the Smooth article here: http://frey-bafang.patransformers.com/2020/10/09/bafang-ultra-programming/
allows more configuration as to both each 'step' as well as the ramp of assistance itself, AND effectively, settings for how much crank rotation or minimum torque needs to be applied to trigger assistance. Of course, this is all likely being done in any aftermarket controller, but - it's not being exposed.

The LudiV2 doesn't actually use the cadence sensor at all currently, and also doesn't expose the 'ramp' or steps (will be able to find in code though), but does have settings impacting throttle linearity. Have requested the same be added for PAS.

Just interesting in what is chosen to be exposed and what is not. It seems like something akin to Startup Degree, Slow Start Mode, and possibly Start Current from Bafang controllers - 'should' be exposed to users in both Archon/Innotrace and Ludi...

 

[SlowRider76]

Bringing old thread back to life to add some feedback.
Been riding Bafang Ultra Smooth tune now for two years, over 2000km on it. No issues what so ever, it actually improved my cassette and chain lifespan. I think, something to do with how linear power is applied, no torque pulsation on/off as in OEM form.
Someone was worried that motor coils can burn out, this is very extreme case by the look of it. You have to maintain max load continuously for a long time (say over 10 min). This is only possible if you are high speed road warrior or major uphill in Alps on throttle with
I found motor been just warm, say 45c externally after some hard train work for 2 hours and battery depleted from 90% to 10%. I get tired before it gets warm
Did anyone to date done comparison between aftermarket controller and "Smooth" tune?

 

[TPEHAK]

I have a motor with Innotrace X1 controller and I would not call it smooth, especially after Yamaha PW-X. The Innotrace X1 motor I have is quite jerky and laggy. The throttle is extremely sensitive and jerky. I have a feeling Innotrace just sent me a regular Bafang m620 motor with Innotrace logo on it. The reason I feel it this way is not only because of it feels jerky but also because of Innotrace did not attach the 60A plug I ordered with the motor and then they responded that they forgot to solder the plug after I informed them about my finding. Now I feel like they "forgot" not only to attach the 60A plug but also the X1 controller itself and just sent me a Bafang m620 motor with stock controller. I would like to have a programming cable from them to see the tune and maybe to adjust it but Innotrace does not respond anymore. Their business feels quite shady. I could open the motor case to check if there is an Innotrace X1 controller inside but there is a warranty sticker on the motor case and I do not want to loose my warranty.

This is my first e-bike with Bafang M620 motor with Innotrace X1 controller and I never had experience with Bafang m620 motor with stock controller so I have nothing to compare it with but I can tell for sure it is not even close to Yamaha PW-X in terms of smoothness and lags. I also do not like that the motor does not provide support before it starts sensing speed so it is very hard to start moving from stand still, especially uphill (Yamaha PW-X provides support instantly once it feels pressure on the crank arms torque sensor regardless of sensing zero speed and this is great). Would be nice if Innotrace X1 works the same way, maybe provides at least gentle support at the beginning if it senses zero speed).

 

[TDA78]

I also do not like that the motor does not provide support before it starts sensing speed so it is very hard to start moving from stand still, especially uphill

The X1 can be programmed for near instant pedal assist by setting "sensitive torque level" to zero. This is a pure torque sensing mode that ignores the cadence sensor. The downside is power tops out at 1500W in PAS 3 and above. I'm going to try reintroducing some "sensitivity torque level" to PAS 4 and up for more power as soon as we can use the software again.

The jumpy throttle is well documented as problem with the thumb control. I think some people have found better controls. I don't use a throttle myself.

 

[Foxhound68]

The X1 can be programmed for near instant pedal assist by setting "sensitive torque level" to zero. This is a pure torque sensing mode that ignores the cadence sensor. The downside is power tops out at 1500W in PAS 3 and above. I'm going to try reintroducing some "sensitivity torque level" to PAS 4 and up for more power as soon as we can use the software again.

The jumpy throttle is well documented as problem with the thumb control. I think some people have found better controls. I don't use a throttle myself.

Any info on the better controls for the throttle you have heard of ?