Smart Control or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying (and Love My Vado)

[Stefan Mikes]

tefan, after reading this post and referencing another I posted a month or so ago in another thread re: Smart Control, I had said that I was a bit disappointed with Smart Control.
However, you informed me to set the altitude, which I did not the first time I used it, creating the Range Anxiety....
I've not attempted to try Smart Control again but want to tomorrow.
The ride is 22 mi., the elevation is 450 ft., and I want 10% battery remaining. Do I worry about setting "Climb Response" or leave it at zero? Not sure what that is or should be, even after watching the videos.
With those parameters plugged in all I want to do is see what I have left (% of battery) when I am done with the 22 mi. ride so as to eventually compare the same ride with ECO (35/35) and also for an upcoming 45 mi. ride to further test Smart Control this Saturday as another test.
Again, I'll most like will not use Smart Control and just use the manual setting for a comparison test at different times to decide if it's worth fine-tuning the Smart Control function.
As an example, I did a very similar route today for 23.73 miles with some 30MPH wind gusts and 573 ft. elevation, and only a few times went out of ECO to get back up to speed. The bottom line is I returned with 68% battery remaining. I just wonder if I had used Smart Control if it would have been more, as well as possibly easier.

Guru, is your Como equipped with the 710 Wh battery? It is a plenty of juice, and I expect Smart Control would eventually keep you at very high assistance, leaving a lot of battery charge at the end of the ride. You would be disappointed with the SC performance again!

Just to explain the "Climb Response": SC makes use of the barometric altimeter to determine when you have started climbing. The CR value of 0 means "increase assistance as soon as a climb is detected". A higher value means "Increase assistance when a climb for a given value of elevation has been already detected". For a relatively short ride with low elevation gain, it is natural to keep the CR value at 0.

As I say, 22 miles and 450 ft is not very much as for the potential of the large battery Como. Let me give you some practical examples from my rides. Note: For practical reasons, I will use the battery consumption factor of Wh/km (Wh/mi). (Your 710 Wh battery has the usable charge of 675 Wh, or 95% of 710).

• Assistance 35/35%: 5.3 Wh/km (8.5 Wh/mi). Your range: 79 miles.
• Assistance 50/50% (the worst scenario): 8.8 Wh/km (14.2 Wh/mi). Your range: 47.5 miles.
• Assistance: 100/100%: 12.60 Wh/km (20.3 Wh/mi). Your range: 33 miles.

The Max Motor Power % always set equal to the Assistance % . It is notable how much the Range can increase at Assistance/Power % less than 50%. It is due to lower travelling speed (less air drag). Note: The total elevation gain in the considerations has never exceeded 900 ft.

Your Mastermind TCD-w will give you a plenty of information such as the remaining Range, Range Trend, Wh/mi (perhaps?) etc. I'm not a great fan of Smart Control anymore. I use it sporadically, in unexpected situations. For example, I set off for a simple, relatively short ride once, with 60% of the SL battery, and a single SL Range Extender. Then, it turned out, "a call of duty" (a family emergency situation) forced me to do a far longer ride than expected, and that was on a day of strong winds. Smart Control helped me surviving on that day. (Generally, I do not use the Smart Control anymore).

 

[GuruUno]

Unfortunately, I had a tire deflation issue today and was not able to complete the test.
However, I can say that the first 10-12 miles were 'super-charged' in the "Smart Control" setting.
After getting a new tube, and fixing the flat, my 160mm cranks came, and the new kickstand.
Put them on, testing in the next few days.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

I can say that the first 10-12 miles were 'super-charged' in the "Smart Control" setting.

Make an experiment, please. Set the "Battery remaining at the end of the ride" to something like 60 or 70%. My calculation tells me you should be assisted "normally" on your 22 mile ride by the Smart Control with such a setting.

 

[rochrunner]

Make an experiment, please. Set the "Battery remaining at the end of the ride" to something like 60 or 70%. My calculation tells me you should be assisted "normally" on your 22 mile ride by the Smart Control with such a setting.

That's one reason I haven't used Smart Control. You're basically saying "give me as much assist as possible without depleting the battery below X%". A short ride that uses 90% of a full charge would certainly be exciting!

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Smart Control may make some sense for medium to long range rides on a single battery. The problem is it is typically gives you too little of the assist in the beginning and too much near to the end of the ride, and it never meets your needs as good as the manual assistance control.

Perhaps the SC is more valuable for SL e-bikes where the main battery is smallish, the motor power is low, and the battery power demand very strongly depends on the current assistance level (from very long range for low assistance to very short one for high assistance setting).

 

[BEC111]

Smart Control may make some sense for medium to long range rides on a single battery. The problem is it is typically gives you too little of the assist in the beginning and too much near to the end of the ride, and it never meets your needs as good as the manual assistance control.

Perhaps the SC is more valuable for SL e-bikes where the main battery is smallish, the motor power is low, and the battery power demand very strongly depends on the current assistance level (from very long range for low assistance to very short one for high assistance setting).

I agree. It’s a fun feature, but the assist levels are often inappropriate for the riding conditions. Mostly hills and wind. It might be better when using the HBM mode, but since it doesn’t link to my Apple Watch, I haven’t been able to test that. FWIW, the similar functionality in BLEvo is no better.

I did find it helpful, as you did, when I was low on battery and needed to get home.

So, it’s good to know it’s available, but it isn’t worthwhile for everyday riding. Perhaps on the newer Mastermind bikes with an improved algorithm it would be a better tool?

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Mostly hills and wind. It might be better when using the HBM mode, but since it doesn’t link to my Apple Watch, I haven’t been able to test that.

It works with a proper HR monitor such as Polar OH-1. Again, it is not for me. My regular HR on any ride is 100-115, my medicines take care so the heart-rate is not getting high. Is it the Smart Control or BLEvo, these only increase the assistance in the rare situations my HR goes above 115...

 

[BEC111]

Thanks for the info. Guess Smart Control will stay interesting but not particularly useful for now.

 

[GuruUno]

So today I set Smart Control for the anticipated 42-mile ride.
I set the distance for 45 miles, I set the Remaining Elevation to 875 ft., I put Climb Response to 250 ft., and 25% was used for the remaining battery. Also, set the time for the ride to 5 hrs.
Overall, I was initially paranoid, I packed the battery charger in the trunk bag and started.
5 hours later I returned (3:26 actual ride time, we stopped for lunch, etc.), 42.3 miles logged in Mission Control at end of the ride, and 45% remaining battery.
I'm impressed. Never had to use the charger.
The wind was 2-4 MPH, and there were hills, but overall the entire experience was fun and exhilarating.
I'm of the belief that as long as I can plan my rides to a degree and plug in the proper numbers to Smart Control, I'm going to try to use it more often.
The beauty is the power provided seems to always meet the needs of the terrain.
Oh, the other thing I did was to try to keep my cadence at 80-85 RPM, and coast when possible, but the cadence is the magic ingredient I believe.
Picture of the elevation below

 

[BEC111]

So today I set Smart Control for the anticipated 42-mile ride.
I set the distance for 45 miles, I set the Remaining Elevation to 875 ft., I put Climb Response to 250 ft., and 25% was used for the remaining battery. Also, set the time for the ride to 5 hrs.
Overall, I was initially paranoid, I packed the battery charger in the trunk bag and started.
5 hours later I returned (3:26 actual ride time, we stopped for lunch, etc.), 42.3 miles logged in Mission Control at end of the ride, and 45% remaining battery.
I'm impressed. Never had to use the charger.
The wind was 2-4 MPH, and there were hills, but overall the entire experience was fun and exhilarating.
I'm of the belief that as long as I can plan my rides to a degree and plug in the proper numbers to Smart Control, I'm going to try to use it more often.
The beauty is the power provided seems to always meet the needs of the terrain.
Oh, the other thing I did was to try to keep my cadence at 80-85 RPM, and coast when possible, but the cadence is the magic ingredient I believe.
Picture of the elevation belowView attachment 123883

Very interesting. Thanks for the data.

 

[mogulman]

2022 Turbo Vado SL 5.0. I tried Smart Control on a route I've ridden before. I had it set for 30 miles, elevation 1200ft, climb response 75ft, and 10% left for remaining battery. Smart Control kept shifting some settings automatically, when I was setting it up (mostly battery %). This was a little annoying. I was trying to keep my cadence between 70-80.

I haven mostly been riding at 35/100 for the last week or so since I got my bike.

• I ended up at 20% when I got home rather than 10%.
• Not sure if I liked Smart Control. Sometimes I wish it was helping me more on hills. Sometimes it was helping me too much on flats/downhill.
• Hit some wind on the way back. No way to account for that. I knew that going into it.
• I didn't see any way to tell what kind of assistance was being provided as I ride. I guess I'd like to know that for future non-smart control rides.
• The elevation on my Garmin was about 200 ft more than Mission Control. 1171 vs 980ft
• I could ride this route without any assistance, so hard for me to tell if I liked it or not. I guess I felt like I used more battery than 35/100 mode though.

I guess I'm a little confused. How does something like 35/100 work. It can provide 35% power up to 100% depending on the amount of effort I put in right? How does it determine that? Cadence and gear? or does it use altitude also?

I guess I'm trying to decide if there is an automatic type method that will work for me. I'd like to not change settings that much unless I'm really struggling. I don't know if I really like having my bike connected to my phone the whole time.

 

[mschwett]

2022 Turbo Vado SL 5.0. …:

I guess I'm a little confused. How does something like 35/100 work. It can provide 35% power up to 100% depending on the amount of effort I put in right? How does it determine that? Cadence and gear? or does it use altitude also?

the bike calculates your power input from torque (how hard you’re pushing the pedals) and cadence (how fast the pedals are going around.) these two together equal power, measurable in watts. at “35/100” the bike will respond with a 35% assist ratio, which is multiplied by the bike’s assist factor (2x in the case of the SL bikes ) for a total of 70% power usage. so if your pedaling is providing 100 watts of power, the bike would use 70watts of battery power, resulting in around 63 watts of useful energy. instead of 100 watts at the chain there’s more like 163. the 100 in the 35/100 means the motor output will scale up with your power all the way to the maximum it can consume, which is 300 watts. to get the full power output at 35/100, you’d need to be providing 429 watts of powers. 429 x .35 x 2 = 300, which is the maximum.

what gear the bike is in does not matter, nor does wind or incline or speed (up to 20/28mph), although combinations of those four factors can cause you to have to pedal harder, thus causing more power to be output.

that’s where the second number comes in. a very strong rider will use the battery up FAST on 35/100; pedaling at 430 watts of leg power for an hour would drain the whole thing! 35/50 would double battery life in that far-fetched scenario.

 

[mogulman]

that’s where the second number comes in. a very strong rider will use the battery up FAST on 35/100; pedaling at 430 watts of leg power for an hour would drain the whole thing! 35/50 would double battery life in that far-fetched scenario.

So 35/50, would limit the power output to 150 watts from the motor?

So if I'm riding between 100-200watts of my own power, then at 35/100, the motor is providing 63-126 watts. If I average 100 watts though, then 63 watts from the motor, then 320wh battery should last 320/70=4.5 hours?

 

[mogulman]

Also...let's say during riding, the max wattage I would ever put out is 250w, then I would need to have it at 300/250/2=.6, 60% to get full power from the motor. So something like 60/100 would give me me a range of 120 watts boost-300 watts. Would give me a range of 1-3 hours depending on hard I am riding.

 

[kahn]

2022 Turbo Vado SL 5.0. I tried Smart Control on a route I've ridden before. I had it set for 30 miles, elevation 1200ft, climb response 75ft, and 10% left for remaining battery. Smart Control kept shifting some settings automatically, when I was setting it up (mostly battery %). This was a little annoying. I was trying to keep my cadence between 70-80.

I haven mostly been riding at 35/100 for the last week or so since I got my bike.

• I ended up at 20% when I got home rather than 10%.
• Not sure if I liked Smart Control. Sometimes I wish it was helping me more on hills. Sometimes it was helping me too much on flats/downhill.
• Hit some wind on the way back. No way to account for that. I knew that going into it.
• I didn't see any way to tell what kind of assistance was being provided as I ride. I guess I'd like to know that for future non-smart control rides.
• The elevation on my Garmin was about 200 ft more than Mission Control. 1171 vs 980ft
• I could ride this route without any assistance, so hard for me to tell if I liked it or not. I guess I felt like I used more battery than 35/100 mode though.

I guess I'm a little confused. How does something like 35/100 work. It can provide 35% power up to 100% depending on the amount of effort I put in right? How does it determine that? Cadence and gear? or does it use altitude also?

I guess I'm trying to decide if there is an automatic type method that will work for me. I'd like to not change settings that much unless I'm really struggling. I don't know if I really like having my bike connected to my phone the whole time.

So Train A leaves Station B at the same time Train C leaves Station D. Train A is going 6 miles per hour while Train C is going 12 miles per hour.....

And since I'm about 70 years past both of those trains, none of this calculates anymore!!!!

I wish I could wrap something around these concepts but have to admit - HUH!!!!

 

[GuruUno]

So Train A leaves Station B at the same time Train C leaves Station D. Train A is going 6 miles per hour while Train C is going 12 miles per hour.....

And since I'm about 70 years past both of those trains, none of this calculates anymore!!!!

I wish I could wrap something around these concepts but have to admit - HUH!!!!

It all depends on what you had for dinner the night before and if the moon was 1/2 or full, and if the tide was high or low, then it all makes sense.

 

[mschwett]

Also...let's say during riding, the max wattage I would ever put out is 250w, then I would need to have it at 300/250/2=.6, 60% to get full power from the motor. So something like 60/100 would give me me a range of 120 watts boost-300 watts. Would give me a range of 1-3 hours depending on hard I am riding.

yes, that’s exactly right. at 100/100 it takes in theory 150w of human power to get 300w of battery consumption due to the “2x” multiplier of the SL bikes. output is something less than that (maybe 80%) due to efficiency losses in the motor and the motor’s gearbox.

the full power (non SL) bikes have a much higher multiplier, as high as 4x.

 

[mschwett]

So 35/50, would limit the power output to 150 watts from the motor?

So if I'm riding between 100-200watts of my own power, then at 35/100, the motor is providing 63-126 watts. If I average 100 watts though, then 63 watts from the motor, then 320wh battery should last 320/70=4.5 hours?

yes, except that the value you can easily
observe in mission control or the mastermind is power input to the motor, not output. so the output is around 20% less. peak power input is 300w plus or minus a few watts.

in your second example, battery draw is 70% of your input power, so 70-140 rather than 63-126. output is going to be more like 56-112 due to the approx 80% efficiency of the motor. but basically, yes, you’re right. it’s a very easy way to calculate range… and what you’ll discover is that unless you use the second parameter, pedaling harder reduces your range, because it takes so much more power to go faster. the harder you pedal, the faster you go, which takes exponentially more power, sucking up your battery super fast but only accelerating you a little bit

 

[mogulman]

yes, except that the value you can easily
observe in mission control or the mastermind is power input to the motor, not output. so the output is around 20% less. peak power input is 300w plus or minus a few watts.

in your second example, battery draw is 70% of your input power, so 70-140 rather than 63-126. output is going to be more like 56-112 due to the approx 80% efficiency of the motor. but basically, yes, you’re right. it’s a very easy way to calculate range… and what you’ll discover is that unless you use the second parameter, pedaling harder reduces your range, because it takes so much more power to go faster. the harder you pedal, the faster you go, which takes exponentially more power, sucking up your battery super fast but only accelerating you a little bit

Interesting. So there is no real automatic mode. I guess what I'm looking for is something like smart control, but rather than evaluating the entire ride, can take parameters like torque, cadence, etc and only increase power when I need it going up hills. For me, most of my rides are out and back.

I guess smart control heart rate would be the closest thing? Except that I need my phone connected for that. Otherwise just stick with 35/35, 60/60, 100/100 and microtune. Ah well. Technology isn't quite there yet.

 

[Nubnub]

Although not an option for Mastemind enabled bikes, Blevo's smart power settings would probably do what you want. It features automatic variable assist based on rider power. Parameters are almost infinitely customizable to base assist boost based on rider power, change in rider power etc. Once dialed in, it can automatically adjust assist during accelerations from stop, uphills, stiff winds etc. It is pretty much all I use on my 2020 Vado SL. Nominally set for 19 support/100 peak power - it will boost to equivalent default sport/turbo levels quite easily. Of course it does use more batttery than sticking with just eco set to 19/100.

It has been confirmed in some of the MTB forums and Youtubes that the Mastermind and older VCU's are forward/backward compatible. At one time - you could purchase the older style VCU for < $200.00.

For the SL - my choice would be Blevo vs Mastermind since Microtune would be working with the smaller motor output. 10% steps don't make that much different and once you get to multiples of 10%, might as well just switch assist modes. OTOH, my full power Tero I don't miss Blevo so much since just 20/100 settings provides the same sort of harder I pedal the more assist I get.