Serial 1 Announcement Discussion

[JASmith]

Something like this: ?

Honda｜EV-neo

人・街・社会をエコでつなぐHondaの電動二輪車「EV-neo」をご紹介します。

www.honda.co.jp

Yes, but less ugly, lol! Looks like a solid platform though. CSC had the right idea with retro styling IMO, something that Harley should excel at on scooters and retro themed cruiser ultra light e-motorcycles:

 

[Gmanx]

I think that’s what livewire and serial 1 is, figuring all that out.

By solving for ebikes, you can bring that tech to motorcycles - Livewire and HD.

Completely agree the common approach now is to take existing form factors and shove as many batteries in it as possible.

Personally I think we will need to also make other materials lighter - frame, wheels, energy storage, etc. in addition to battery tech. I’m looking forward to when we get new electric only form factors. Right now it’s mostly replace the engine with electric so people will buy ehay They are comfortable with as opposed to what designs can electric create that is unique.

 

[theemartymac]

The more I shopped recently, the more I think all electric motorcycles designed to function just like big old ICE bikes of yore are doomed to fail until we have a new revolutionary battery technology. The current solution to the battery density issue is to either make vehicles extremely aerodynamic or have massive batteries or both!

Absolutely.

I don't think Harley is wrong in trying as there will be a future for electric motorcycles, but they are in a bit of a precarious business space with sales falling across the board. New battery tech is not that far off, maybe just a couple/few years, so building the corporate knowledge and capacity now - as well as a general name in the e-transportation space - might pay off by positioning them at the head of the line once that tech is widely available. GM Built the EV1 car back in the 90's solely as a test of the platform viability, and didn't even let owners keep them (you could only lease them). They most certainly lost money on that program, but that was not the point. It was a miniscule investment for GM, and gave them valuable knowledge and experience.

Only time will tell if HD can truly afford the excursion...

 

[ActionJackson]

Yes, but less ugly, lol! Looks like a solid platform though. CSC had the right idea with retro styling IMO, something that Harley should excel at on scooters and retro themed cruiser ultra light e-motorcycles:

Honda did an EV Cub which the CSC are kind of styled after, but it couldn’t overcome user insistence on gasoline power. The Neo has low CG for heavy cargo and drop-in batteries which make it very useful.

They do have a more stylish, sporty, and less utilitarian version:

電動二輪車「PCX ELECTRIC」のリース販売を開始 | Honda 企業情報サイト

本田技研工業の広報発表ニュース - 電動二輪車「PCX ELECTRIC」のリース販売を開始

www.honda.co.jp

 

[J.R.]

Both are right, as people usually say that Harleys are handicapped by their use of outdated technology, and they aren't wrong when it comes to their brand focus. Sad thing is that HD has proven they can make very advanced designs, but the consumers are always right, and consumers seemed to just keep buying the antiquated technology products insisting on pushrods and air cooling that severely limit their performance because of the traditionalist image. They focused marketing on that core audience, but problem with one-dimensional brand marketing is that by Harley focusing on this niche for so long and not investing much in diversifying, they alienate younger consumers and their old niche is aging out of buying more products. Its normal for the son to rebel against the father at a certain age, and anything their parents like they won't like if nothing more than for that reason (insert "ok boomer" meme) as a way to establish their independence... heck think about any big counter culture fad from the 60s to today that was born from that. So its important now more than ever for Harley to split its branding image with different lines. This is likely a step in the right direction for that, although I'm surprised they aren't producing a line that targets younger hipsters with some retro cruiser e-bikes as well.

I can understand why you make that argument, it's often repeated by the current moto journalists over and over. It's a shallow dive into the subject. I've owned stock in the company almost as long as I've owned their bikes. The reality is more complicated than the op-eds reveal.

I'm not brand sensitive at all and not an apologist for the company. I have plenty of criticisms. Their difficulties started around 2005, they ramped up production and manufactured way too many units. From 1989 to 2004 there were waiting lists to buy a bike. This was actually good for the company and great for the used bike market. They increased production to meet demand, then surpassed it. Then came the big recession of 2008. This caused big problems for all vehicle brands, especially premium brands. HD had their own finance division just like GMAC and scores of people defaulted on their loans. Bad debts can sink a company. HD didn't get the bailout GM did.

All through this HD owned Buell sport bike company, they even had an entry level 500cc bike. The bikes sold well. I have a friend that owns a large dealership. I was able to ride any bike I wanted. HD preferred to meet demands of their core business. HD also owned a truck body division, their biggest client was the USPS. They also owned and manufactured the luxury motorhome brand Holiday Rambler. And they developed a water cooled line of bikes in the early 2000's. I could list a lot of other high tech products they made and make, but I'll just stick to the bikes.

They continued to offer entry level 500 and 700cc bike in the 2010's. Not traditional cruisers, sport standards. They sell a range of water cooled bikes today.

The completely new 2021 adventure touring model:


All new 2022 Cafe Racer:


There are other new models being released. They won't be making scooters under the HD badge. It's always possible under the Serial 1 badge.

The Live Wire isn't the end of the story. Initial models are always part of research and development. No car brand is still selling their first gen EV. In the beginning stages, you don't scrap anything. Evolution is the goal. LW will end when the next gen is planned or ready.

2020 market share in the USA

HD 31.1%
Honda 20.8%
Yamaha 12.2%
Kawasaki 11.9%
Suzuki 5.3%

Lifestyle magazines rarely report business news well. People should buy and ride what they like. I've never promoted the ebikes I own and I don't promote MC's. This thread is the most I've ever written on the forum about the HD Co. There started to be some misunderstandings about the company and their ability to offer a good product to ebikers. Just my 2 cents.

 

[Gmanx]

I'm with you J. R., I'm bullish on HD/Serial1/live wire to be big players across the entire market.

They can have the traditional / vintage look under the HD brand
New / electric only brand = live wire, urban and personal mobility under the serial 1 badge, all 3 sharing R&D benefits, manufacturing, balance sheet.

 

[ActionJackson]

2020 market share in the USA

HD 31.1%
Honda 20.8%
Yamaha 12.2%
Kawasaki 11.9%
Suzuki 5.3%

Thanks for your post! People pigeon hole HD a lot (even I have that habit). I should know better though as my first bike was a Harley 350cc Sprint “Thumper”. Way out of form for them back then, but a great crotch rocket for a 15 year old!

 

[J.R.]

Thanks for your post! People pigeon hole HD a lot (even I have that habit). I should know better though as my first bike was a Harley 350cc Sprint “Thumper”. Way out of form for them back then, but a great crotch rocket for a 15 year old!

I had an HD 90cc Sprint! HD made those bikes in Italy, today that factory is the Cagiva Motorcycle Co.

I live in the same county where the HD has it's final assembly plant. I know a lot of people that work there. We're fans, but most of us are realistic. We know the challenges that exist. One thing that people don't think about is HD's are Union Made (2 Unions at HD). However one feels about unions, it adds a lot of costs to the products that overseas companies companies do not have to deal with. One of the reasons there is the Serial 1 spinoff is the Union contracts. If it was an HD ebike, it would have to be union made. That would be a $12k ebike, or the contracts would have to be rewritten to exclude them. Unions don't like exclusions.

 

[ActionJackson]

I had an HD 90cc Sprint! HD made those bikes in Italy, today that factory is the Cagiva Motorcycle Co.

I live in the same county where the HD has it's final assembly plant. I know a lot of people that work there. We're fans, but most of us are realistic. We know the challenges that exist. One thing that people don't think about is HD's are Union Made (2 Unions at HD). However one feels about unions, it adds a lot of costs to the products that overseas companies companies do not have to deal with. One of the reasons there is the Serial 1 spinoff is the Union contracts. If it was an HD ebike, it would have to be union made. That would be a $12k ebike, or the contracts would have to be rewritten to exclude them. Unions don't like exclusions.

The Sprint got me hooked, I learned from it a lot. Moved on to a Triumph 750 Bonneville. I sold my last bike (classic Honda CB450) a few years ago to appease the boss at home.

I am OK with unions but it does make it hard on a start-up. HD can have a leg up potentially with local manufacturing simply because world dynamics will end this cheap as chips consumer orgy from China soon. A lot of these bicycle companies have zero manufacturing capacity so they’ll go under quick when the S*** hits the fan.

 

[Rented Mule]

I had an HD 90cc Sprint! HD made those bikes in Italy, today that factory is the Cagiva Motorcycle Co.

I live in the same county where the HD has it's final assembly plant. I know a lot of people that work there. We're fans, but most of us are realistic. We know the challenges that exist. One thing that people don't think about is HD's are Union Made (2 Unions at HD). However one feels about unions, it adds a lot of costs to the products that overseas companies companies do not have to deal with. One of the reasons there is the Serial 1 spinoff is the Union contracts. If it was an HD ebike, it would have to be union made. That would be a $12k ebike, or the contracts would have to be rewritten to exclude them. Unions don't like exclusions.

The bikes are made in Taiwan.

 

[J.R.]

The bikes are made in Taiwan.

I'm not sure what that is a reply to. I'm not suggesting the ebikes are made in this country. Serial 1 is a spinoff. The first prototypes under the HD name were assembled in the US, from globally sourced parts. That could be the goal, I don't know. This year's stock report may reveal more. HD has done commemorative bicycles in the past 20 years, made in the USA, but they were small lots of collectors items and really expensive.

 

[Rented Mule]

I'm not sure what that is a reply to. I'm not suggesting the ebikes are made in this country. Serial 1 is a spinoff. The first prototypes under the HD name were assembled in the US, from globally sourced parts. That could be the goal, I don't know. This year's stock report may reveal more. HD has done commemorative bicycles in the past 20 years, made in the USA, but they were small lots of collectors items and really expensive.

US Union labor costs wont raise the price of an offshore made product. Bikes wou;ld cost $12,000 if Harley did not spin of Serial1.

 

[J.R.]

US Union labor costs wont raise the price of an offshore made product. Bikes wou;ld cost $12,000 if Harley did not spin of Serial1.

Union contracts often have stipulations that do not allow off shore manufacturing. These types of issues are in the contracts for the auto industry. It was a big problem when HD wanted to just assemble bikes abroad for the Euro market.

 

[troehrkasse]

Let's try somebody else on EBR
@troehrkasse Let's go

Done! I'll start moving related threads over. https://electricbikereview.com/forums/forum/serial-1/

Who did you DM about it? If it was Court... he gets a million notifications and messages on here every day, he doesn't see most of them. Too many to keep up with!

 

[Gmanx]

Thanks @troehrkasse - I did send it to Court as well, so good to know.

ETA : Can you change the name of the thread to Serial 1 Announcement Discussion please? Its a good thread and now that Serial 1 forums are in place, probably makes sense to update the thread.

 

[Ebiker33]

Done! I'll start moving related threads over. https://electricbikereview.com/forums/forum/serial-1/

Who did you DM about it? If it was Court... he gets a million notifications and messages on here every day, he doesn't see most of them. Too many to keep up with!

Thanks

 

[troehrkasse]

ETA : Can you change the name of the thread to Serial 1 Announcement Discussion please?

Done!

 

[RMK!]

As much as I like my Rush City Speed it seems to me that Serial 1 might not be doing the sales numbers needed to survive in a competitive market segment. The lack of a promised but not delivered App for bike setup and ride data might be an indicator of problems. OTOH, it has only been a year and with all the supply chain issues, that puts a new company like Serial 1 in a tight spot.

This is really a shame because if you had a chance to ride a Serial 1, I think you'd find that the value of the bike is very apparent especially as compared to other big name bike brands products. It's not direct from China cheap, but with bikes in stock, a 2 year warranty and a growing dealer network they should be selling many bikes. Anecdotally, I ride 4-5 days a week on one of the best and busiest bike trails in the country and in my 6000 miles of riding on that and some other popular trails this year, I have yet to see another Serial 1 in the wild.

The Serial 1 bikes best fit is in the cruiser, around town and paved trail rider category. I believe with the very quiet and solid Brose motor, amazing Inviolo AutomatiQ CVT, Gates belt drive and great build quality, the Serial 1 is the perfect combination of advanced features and should be in very high demand. The lack of a Throttle might be one issue, but if you take your bike riding seriously, and enjoy it for recreation and exercise, it's at the top of the list of anything I've ridden in its class.

Honestly, if I hadn't found it with a $1000 discount during last years "Black Friday" sale, I probably wouldn't have purchased the bike. With the benefit of having ridden it for 1000+ miles since my Nov 2021 purchase, I would happily pay the full ask for this ebike.

A review by Court here on EBR would be helpful in getting the word out on this interesting new ebike company.

 

[Gmanx]

yeah, its pretty strange there is no review with price not being a factor with bikes way above the price point being reviewed. I'm biased because I am an owner, but I would put this bike up against any in the market and it comes out near the top. Its just an amazing experience.

 

[theemartymac]

I recall there was some discussion a short while back that the site was experiencing a reduced number of submitted bikes, and it was really only the mainstream big volume bikes coming through. I guess the manufacturer/local shop has to provide a bike and pay a fee for the reviews, and that volume dropped off, or the agreements were changing? It came up on a thread asking what kind of reviews the users wanted to see...