Same hub, same motor, much different behaviour?

[Fandomii]

Hi folks,

I recently got to try two different s-pedelec e-bikes, sporting the Bosch Performance Speed Gen4 paired with an Enviolo hub.

The first bike (branded as “all-terrain”) seemed to have a wider range of gears, with the high end being difficult to use even with max assist. My cadence was low and the motor was noisy.

The second (more of a “commuter”) seemed to max out the gear range earlier, and the Bosch motor was also much quieter at max gear. The behaviour of this system was very similar to my older s-pedelec bike with Nuvinci and Bosch Speed Gen2.

What could be causing this difference in behaviour? The gear hub, the tuning of the cables, the motor or something else?

 

[AHicks]

I would think if one (or both?) of the hub's had control cables that were not functioning properly, for whatever reason, that could certainly affect what you are talking about.

Clearly, there's a bunch of other things as well. Tire size/pressure, tooth count on front and rear sprockets are the first couple that come to mind for me.

 

[Fandomii]

I would think if one (or both?) of the hub's had control cables that were not functioning properly, for whatever reason, that could certainly affect what you are talking about.

Clearly, there's a bunch of other things as well. Tire size/pressure, tooth count on front and rear sprockets are the first couple that come to mind for me.

Thank you, I thought the same about teeth count, but both bikes have the same: 55T chainring, 22T cassette. Tire size and pressure are also very much comparable. What else could it be?

Essentially the all-terrain was “max difficulty” for me at about 85% of its gear range, whereas the commuter bike is almost never “max difficulty” and I can ride it at its max gear, where it is also much quieter than the all-terrain. It really makes me wonder.

 

[PedalUma]

Different firmware?

 

[Fandomii]

Different firmware?

Did Bosch release a firmware over the last 1.5 year that drastically changed the behaviour of the motor..?

 

[Stefan Mikes]

It is the gearing, tyres, different geometry.
If you, say, take a Yamaha PW-Xn motor e-MTB it will climb like a dream, ride through almost any terrain but will be rather slow and tiresome for a longer road ride (and the tyres will be noisy). Have a road e-bike with the same motor and the battery, and you will be able to travel fast (never mind the speed limiter) for a long distance but you would have a harder time up significant hills, and the singletrack riding would be basically not an option. (I mention Yamaha/Giant e-bikes I have had experience with).

There is also different tuning for e-MTBs and commuter e-bikes. The e-MTB tuning gives you the most of oomph at low speed and cadence. Street tuning is for commuting. "Tuning" here is the power delivery profile for different cadence and speed.

Motor noise. Many mid-drive motors become very noisy at low speed. It is especially irritating when you are riding slowly in a quiet environment such as a forest.

General remark: As I can understand, you need a commuter e-bike. Do not go for "all terrain" e-bike if you do not plan to spend most of your ride time off-road. I had a Giant Trance E+ 2 Pro (a full-suspension e-MTB) and I hated it on-road.

 

[Fandomii]

It is the gearing, tyres, different geometry.
If you, say, take a Yamaha PW-Xn motor e-MTB it will climb like a dream, ride through almost any terrain but will be rather slow and tiresome for a longer road ride (and the tyres will be noisy). Have a road e-bike with the same motor and the battery, and you will be able to travel fast (never mind the speed limiter) for a long distance but you would have a harder time up significant hills, and the singletrack riding would be basically not an option. (I mention Yamaha/Giant e-bikes I have had experience with).

There is also different tuning for e-MTBs and commuter e-bikes. The e-MTB tuning gives you the most of oomph at low speed and cadence. Street tuning is for commuting. "Tuning" here is the power delivery profile for different cadence and speed.

Motor noise. Many mid-drive motors become very noisy at low speed. It is especially irritating when you are riding slowly in quiet environment such as a forest.

General remark: As I can understand, you need a commuter e-bike. Do not go for "all terrain" e-bike if you do not plan to spend most of your ride time off-road. I had a Giant Trance E+ 2 Pro (a full-suspension e-MTB) and I hated it on-road.

Thank you very much for your valuable feedback. I had the same feeling about this otherwise amazing "all-terrain" beastly ebike - it felt noisy and weirdly tuned for on-road commuting. It was making me wish for my old Gen2 Bosch motor - not a good feeling to have on a brand new and expensive ebike.

However the commuter Trek Allant+ 9S feels much more like it and, while noisy, it quiets down at higher gears. It just makes me wonder, what kind of tuning is done to the All Terrain compared to the Commuter... Their geometry does not look that much different to me.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

I cannot tell you Still, I believe you would be very happy with the Allant +9s. I am very familiar with that e-bike type/specs (my "high performance ride" is Vado 6.0, which is very similar to Allant+ 9s, only derailleur not the carbon belt/IGH).


Suffice to say I often ride my Vado 6.0 on demanding gravel group rides (that involve a lot of forest riding) and I can keep up the tempo of some competing cyclist there. (The only drawback ot that e-bike is the heavy weight).

Allant+ 9 Stagger

Vado 6.0 Step Through.

 

[Fandomii]

I cannot tell you Still, I believe you would be very happy with the Allant +9s. I am very familiar with that e-bike type/specs (my "high performance ride" is Vado 6.0, which is very similar to Allant+ 9s, only derailleur not the carbon belt/IGH).


Suffice to say I often ride my Vado 6.0 on demanding gravel group rides (that involve a lot of forest riding) and I can keep up the tempo of some competing cyclist there. (The only drawback ot that e-bike is the heavy weight).

View attachment 145339
Allant+ 9 Stagger

View attachment 145340
Vado 6.0 Step Through.

They do indeed look very similar! I wish Specialized was making a Vado 6.0 Speed with IGH, then I would be on to that like fire. For some reason I have convinced myself that I don't wish to concider anything without IGH and belt for my commuting ride. It rains frequently in my area.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

They do indeed look very similar! I wish Specialized was making a Vado 6.0 Speed with IGH, then I would be on to that like fire. For some reason I have convinced myself that I don't wish to concider anything without IGH and belt for my commuting ride. It rains frequently in my area.

Oh, I do understand your feelings very well regarding the raining, and subsequent chain maintenance! Still, I am a chain/derailleur believer as I use my Vado in so many different environments, including extreme mountain road rides sometimes

The Vado 5.0 IGH is in its infancy, and based on several user reports, I would really hesitate to recommend it (even if the speed restriction could be walked around). Besides, the older Allant+ 9.9s was created as a direct competitor to Vado 6.0. Thanks to your threads, I learned about the improvements that emerged with the latest Allant+ 9s. Thank you!

Sorry for asking: Allant+ 9s is not offered in my country (Poland). Where can you buy the "s" version?

 

[fooferdoggie]

bosch motors need a cadence above 70 for you to get the full wattage out of them. a slow cadence will cause the motor to not be as smooth. the bosch second gen motor is quieter then the new motor for sure. hard to say what's going on without knowing the gear range on both. also tire size is going to make a huge difference between the two.

 

[Fandomii]

bosch motors need a cadence above 70 for you to get the full wattage out of them. a slow cadence will cause the motor to not be as smooth. the bosch second gen motor is quieter then the new motor for sure. hard to say what's going on without knowing the gear range on both. also tire size is going to make a huge difference between the two.

The tire size difference: 584-62 for the all terrain vs 584-60 for the Commuter. Is that a significant difference?

 

[Stefan Mikes]

The tire size difference: 584-62 for the all terrain vs 584-60 for the Commuter. Is that a significant difference?

Not. It is negligible. The different tread could, however, matter. An aggressive tyre tread can "eat up" several km/h from your ride. For instance, the Bontrager E6 for the Allant+ 9s is a fast rolling tyre with good enough traction in rough terrain. Not sure what tyre is offered with the "all terrain" e-bike?

(During my warm season rides, I use Specialized Electrak 2.0 Armadillo/Gripton tyres that are very similar to Bontrager E6 in the terms of the rolling speed and traction).

Bontrager E6 Hard-Case Lite. (60-584). See the hard central tread for low rolling resistance, and the outer knobs for traction.

Specialized Electrak 2.0 Armadillo with Gripton compound. (51-622). The traction of this tyre results from the soft & fast Gripton compound.

 

[fooferdoggie]

The tire size difference: 584-62 for the all terrain vs 584-60 for the Commuter. Is that a significant difference?

it might be depending on the tire. rubber makes a difference.

 

[PedalUma]

Rubber does make a difference. This bike just got new wheels and new tires. The Schwalbe Super Moto X tires are so much faster than the original whitewalls that were de-laminating. This is not my 'style' of bike; it weighs something like 41Kg. But the owner likes it. The 120Nm motor destroyed the cheep rear hub and the front wheel's rim was about to sheer at the valve.

 

[Fandomii]

Not. It is negligible. The different tread could, however, matter. An aggressive tyre tread can "eat up" several km/h from your ride. For instance, the Bontrager E6 for the Allant+ 9s is a fast rolling tyre with good enough traction in rough terrain. Not sure what tyre is offered with the "all terrain" e-bike?

(During my warm season rides, I use Specialized Electrak 2.0 Armadillo/Gripton tyres that are very similar to Bontrager E6 in the terms of the rolling speed and traction).

View attachment 145357
Bontrager E6 Hard-Case Lite. (60-584). See the hard central tread for low rolling resistance, and the outer knobs for traction.

View attachment 145358
Specialized Electrak 2.0 Armadillo with Gripton compound. (51-622). The traction of this tyre results from the soft & fast Gripton compound.

It was Schwalbe Super Moto X for the All-terrain vs Bontrager E6 Hardcase Lite on the Commuter. I don't think it's a big difference? I'm talking about a big difference in performance and behavior from the two bikes folks.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

It was Schwalbe Super Moto X for the All-terrain vs Bontrager E6 Hardcase Lite on the Commuter. I don't think it's a big difference? I'm talking about a big difference in performance and behavior from the two bikes folks.

No, it looks the tyres were not the decisive factor there.