Replacing JUICED CCS with Specialized VADO, VADO SL or CREO

[ebubar]

I going through some replacements with a Juiced CCS battery on my commuter (45 miles roundtrip). The CCS has served me well over the last 3 years/15000 miles, but I've been off the ebike for about a month now. I can ride my regular road bike, but it leaves me wiped for a day afterwards. Juiced has been good about replacing my battery under warranty due to the ports burning out but I think I'd like a locally supported bike that can get replacement bits and pieces quicker. I've had to drive to work which is costing me cash (but more importantly sanity). My local shop is great and carries Specialized so i'm looking at the Vado, Vado SL or Creo. As near as I can surmise, the VADO would be very much like my current Juiced CCS. It comes fully loaded for commuting. It has a smaller battery and lower power motor compared to the CCS, BUT its mid-drive so not apples to apples with the Juiced. Its also quite heavy, though I can't find a weight on the 2022 ones online.

Has anyone tried both a Juiced CCS/S2/X and a VADO?

The VADO SL would be MUCH lighter weight but also much less power and a smaller battery. I'd probably invest in the battery extender so that I don't need to drain the battery each day. I like the idea of the lighter weight and think this would get me to work fine. That little bit of battery power should take the edge off of daily commuting. BUT the power and battery size are both significantly weaker, so i'm looking at a bigger workout.

The CREO has the advantage of being a road bike, lightest weight, drop bar hand positions and aerodynamic advantage BUT i'd put on rack and fenders and use it for commuting. I'm not sure the price increase is worth it considering i'd be converting it to commuting.

Any advice from others that have ridden all/some of these or otherwise switched from a web/direct-to-consumer brand to a shop-supported brand? Have you found that worth the increase in cost?
Thanks in advance! Off to keep reading all the other threads about Vados,SLs,Creos!

 

[Stefan Mikes]

I have owned a Vado, Vado SL, and demo rode a Creo E5 (I was determined to buy a Creo if it fit me). As far I can understand, Juiced CCX is a 60 lb e-bike. Vado approximately weighs 26 kg (57 lb), so the weight is similar.

As for a commuter, I would greatly recommend a full power Vado to you. There are several factors for such a choice:

• Powerful mid-drive motor with a great drive-train, so you could arrive to work with no sweat on
• High speed (if you are in the United States)
• Choice of batteries (the largest of them being 710 Wh for Vado 5.0 2022). It really depends on your commute distance what battery you'd need, and the battery size is the single factor actually defining the e-bike price
• The battery is removable, making you independent of weather, as you always could bring the battery indoor for charging.

If you are not worried of 57 lb e-bike weight, Vado is your choice.

Make no mistake: SL e-bikes are meant more for recreation/fitness. I assume you are a fit person because only a fit person can achieve a good average speed on SL e-bikes.

Vado SL:

• No doubt it is as lightweight as you can carry it with one hand (see my profile photo)
• Giving you twice as much of workout as compared to the big Vado (verified!)
• The EQ version is significantly heavier than the non-EQ (some 4.5 lb more)
• The Range Extender with 220 mm SL Cable weights 2.4 lb
• The e-bike is significantly slower than the big Vado, and is vulnerable to headwinds.
• Climbing is also a weak point of the Vado SL
• The internal battery means charging the entire e-bike indoors.

Creo:
Sharing characteristics with Vado SL. Creo is aerodynamically better (faster). Are you ready to ride in the aggressive forward position? (I couldn't, and it was an ordeal to me). Also, Creo comes unequipped. Equipping it will increase the weight and the aero quality would be also spoilt. Are you ready to travel to work with a backpack only?

Make no mistake again: I have bought a Vado SL fully aware of what is was. I can keep my SL indoors, take it in my hand and go for, say, grocery shopping or for long leisure ride. However, if I were in the position to cover a specific distance on every working day regardless of weather, be on time and fresh, that would be the full power Vado.

 

[jodi2]

I think most of the people who know light ebikes like SL bikes also know "normal" (=heavy) ebikes. But everyone feels different on a light ebike and it depends an your needs and your excpectations if you like it or not. It doesn't make much sense to tell you about personal feelings, if you haven't tried any SL drive before.
The same is true for Creo or Vado SL. If you're used to race bars you will like the Creo more, if not you need to get used to it and maybe you never will and stay prefering a normal straight handle bar

But Stefan's summary "SL drive for recreation/fitness" and "heavier e-drive for frequent commuting" is a good rule of thumb.

• Climbing is also a weak point of the Vado SL
• The internal battery means charging the entire e-bike indoors.

The last point is good to mention. Even if one is going to like light assist e-drives, not anyone has a charging option where the bike is stored (it doesn't need to be "fully indoors", a garage is enough). There are other assist drive models (not much...) where the battery can be taken out.

But I disagree with the last point. The SL drive is due to mid-drive motor and it's wide supported cadence fantastic for climbing and I (and most customers in Europe with the 25km/h motor limit) choose it mostly for that reason and for climbs. I almost never need full SL motor support uphill. Where full SL support is not enough, I usually turn over, fall aside or my rear tire spins. More power uphill maybe useful sometimes with real MTBs like Levo SL or Kenovo SL, but not with Creo or Vado SL.
Of course you get less motor support uphill than with a more powerful heavier motor. But this as already stated in "normal motors more powerful" or "SL gives you more workout. To add that SL is also bad for climbing is like saying this corpse is dead... ;-) Then you could add as well "And the SL offer you less power/adds less mph on flat trips..." and so on. All is already included in "less powerful drive".

 

[ebubar]

I can park my bike inside at all times (both work and at home) so I’m not concerned about a removable battery. I am also in the US so will have a class 3 bike capability. I rode the VADO SL when it first came out and didn’t feel much assistance on it. I really only recognized significant support at the highest level. I recently tested a CREO SL Comp E5 and it felt like it had more support at all levels. The road riding position was quite comfortable as well. I know the CREO and VADO SL use the same motor so I’m wondering if the different geometry is responsible for the difference in feel or if its better/updated tuning of the motor. It does seem like the popular advice is get the heavier/more-power bike for long commutes which I have. So it seems like my best choice is likely to get a Vado.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

But I disagree with the last point. The SL drive is due to mid-drive motor and it's wide supported cadence fantastic for climbing and I (and most customers in Europe with the 25km/h motor limit) choose it mostly for that reason and for climbs. I almost never need full SL motor support uphill. Where full SL support is not enough, I usually turn over, fall aside or my rear tire spins. More power uphill maybe useful sometimes with real MTBs like Levo SL or Kenovo SL, but not with Creo or Vado SL.
Of course you get less motor support uphill than with a more powerful heavier motor. But this as already stated in "normal motors more powerful" or "SL gives you more workout. To add that SL is also bad for climbing is like saying this corpse is dead... ;-) Then you could add as well "And the SL offer you less power/adds less mph on flat trips..." and so on. All is already included in "less powerful drive".

Jodi, it is all about the rider's fitness. One of EBR Forum members @Rás Cnoic has improved the climbing property of his Vado SL by installing a 38T chainring. My personal experience is I can climb a 2.2% overpass at a whooping 28.6 km/h (17.8 mph) on my (speed) Vado 5.0 while my Vado SL crawls there unless it is ridden in 100% Turbo mode. You Jodi are so fit you can probably ride your Creo without any assistance. I would not, however, recommend doing so to a commuter, unless they have a shower at work

I can park my bike inside at all times (both work and at home) so I’m not concerned about a removable battery. I am also in the US so will have a class 3 bike capability. I rode the VADO SL when it first came out and didn’t feel much assistance on it. I really only recognized significant support at the highest level. I recently tested a CREO SL Comp E5 and it felt like it had more support at all levels. The road riding position was quite comfortable as well. I know the CREO and VADO SL use the same motor so I’m wondering if the different geometry is responsible for the difference in feel or if its better/updated tuning of the motor.

I can bet the SL motor is tuned the same way for Vado SL and Creo. You got a positive impression of the Creo because of its road geometry. (It is probably different tuning for Levo SL and Kenevo SL, e-MTBs).

It does seem like the popular advice is get the heavier/more-power bike for long commutes which I have. So it seems like my best choice is likely to get a Vado.

I agree. You would just zoom on your way to work with the full power Vado.

 

[jodi2]

I rode the VADO SL when it first came out and didn’t feel much assistance on it. I really only recognized significant support at the highest level. I recently tested a CREO SL Comp E5 and it felt like it had more support at all levels. The road riding position was quite comfortable as well. I know the CREO and VADO SL use the same motor so I’m wondering if the different geometry is responsible for the difference in feel or if its better/updated tuning of the motor. It does seem like the popular advice is get the heavier/more-power bike for long commutes which I have. So it seems like my best choice is likely to get a Vado.

Ok, looks like you already tried Creo and Vado SL, great! If it's enough for your needs, you'll have to judge...
If you compare it to a full power ebike (or "overfull" power bikes with 500-800W motors), the assist edrives like SL will always appear much weaker and slower. But if you compare it to an "organic bike" or when riding with others without motors, you will realize how much support already assist edrives offer. And if you ride more active (especially offraod) you also benefit much more form the lighter and more agiule bike compared to the “tank feeling” oft
So if saving time and sweat is the main goal like often for commuting, a more powerful support is better. But if you still want your workout, just want some help to make riding more fun and more relaxed, to fear less the uphills or the headwinds on your route, an assist edrive like SL is better.
Best of course to have both! ;-)

I did not ride it long enough to really judge the Vado SL, but motor and motor support should be very similar to the Creo. Also the Creo was first and the Vado came later (about 9 months?), so it's not very probable that the Creo has an updated motor or support characteristic.

Jodi, it is all about the rider's fitness. One of EBR Forum members @Rás Cnoic has improved the climbing property of his Vado SL by installing a 38T chainring. My personal experience is I can climb a 2.2% overpass at a whooping 28.6 km/h (17.8 mph) on my (speed) Vado 5.0 while my Vado SL crawls there unless it is ridden in 100% Turbo mode. You Jodi are so fit you can probably ride your Creo without any assistance. I would not, however, recommend doing so to a commuter, unless they have a shower at work

I'm not sure if you already understood me, Stefan. Of course an SL drive is less powerful and slower uphill than a bigger edrive. But this is true in all areas where you use it, no matter if uphill, acceleration after a traffic light or on flats with high speed. So with “assist edrives like SL are less powerful” all is said. And compared to edrives/motors of the same(!) size&weight, the mid-drive SL (as well as Fazua) is terrific for climbing and a hub motor (of similar size&weight…) like X.35 is much worse.

 

[kahn]

I can park my bike inside at all times (both work and at home) so I’m not concerned about a removable battery. I am also in the US so will have a class 3 bike capability. I rode the VADO SL when it first came out and didn’t feel much assistance on it. I really only recognized significant support at the highest level. I recently tested a CREO SL Comp E5 and it felt like it had more support at all levels. The road riding position was quite comfortable as well. I know the CREO and VADO SL use the same motor so I’m wondering if the different geometry is responsible for the difference in feel or if its better/updated tuning of the motor. It does seem like the popular advice is get the heavier/more-power bike for long commutes which I have. So it seems like my best choice is likely to get a Vado.

Actually, the Mission Control App (Apple and Android) can change the values assigned to the three power modes. You could actually assign ECO (lowest) the full power if you want or ZERO power. So, it is quite possible that the bikes you rode were tuned differently. You can also select the initial power mode when turning it on. Mine came set to "middle" of the three when starting up the bike. I changed to that lower power. Then there is probably a geometry component to how they feel/react.

edited to add: Also, there is probably a weight difference between the Creo and the Vado SL which could also affect the "feel" of the power of the bike.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Actually, the Mission Control App (Apple and Android) can change the values assigned to the three power modes. You could actually assign ECO (lowest) the full power if you want or ZERO power. So, it is quite possible that the bikes you rode were tuned differently. You can also select the initial power mode when turning it on. Mine came set to "middle" of the three when starting up the bike. I changed to that lower power. Then there is probably a geometry component to how they feel/react.

edited to add: Also, there is probably a weight difference between the Creo and the Vado SL which could also affect the "feel" of the power of the bike.

You are right @kahn but Jodi and I meant "motor tuning" in another sense. The manufacturer will program power curves into the motor software. For instance, mountain e-bikes are "tuned" the way to deliver oomph in the low-end both for speed and cadence ("trail tuning"), while "street tuning" gives preference to higher cadence and speed. For instance, my (unusual) Specialized 1.2s motor is optimized for speed. We users have no access to the motor power curves; (interestingly, owners of the latest Bosch Nyon display who pay a subscription fee can control the motor power curve).

Having said the above, I don't think Specialized differentiate the SL 1.1 motor tuning for Vado SL or Creo. They might have done it for Levo SL and Kenevo SL to improve the low-end characteristics for those e-MTBs.

 

[ebubar]

Actually, the Mission Control App (Apple and Android) can change the values assigned to the three power modes. You could actually assign ECO (lowest) the full power if you want or ZERO power. So, it is quite possible that the bikes you rode were tuned differently. You can also select the initial power mode when turning it on. Mine came set to "middle" of the three when starting up the bike. I changed to that lower power. Then there is probably a geometry component to how they feel/react.

edited to add: Also, there is probably a weight difference between the Creo and the Vado SL which could also affect the "feel" of the power of the bike.

This is what I was guessing. Different power profiles programmed in at the different modes. I could imagine a shop not messing with it when the tech was newer (i.e. when I rode the Vado) versus after having some experience with it and allowing lots of test rides (i.e. when I rode the Creo). I ride about 8-10k miles a year so am pretty used to the difference between upright and road riding positions so while that could've been some of the difference my suspicion is they had different values for modes...Creo probably had more assistance programmed in for each level.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Creo probably had more assistance programmed in for each level.

I don't think so.
ECO: 35/35%
SPORT: 35/100%
TURBO: 100/100%.
And of course the user can change these values at will.