Reason for price discrepancy between R&M and Gazelle

[kerradeph]

What is the big difference between R&M bikes compared to Gazelle? I'm looking at either the Nevo4 or Chrager4 and there's the Gazelle Avignon C380 HMB which has a lot of very similar components in the drive train to the Nevo4 but is about half the price. Is R&M just charging a ton more? Are there features I'm missing on the Nevo that the Gazelle doesn't have? Is the frame quality significantly different? Where does the price difference come from? I know that the Avignon has a smaller battery and it sounds like it has a bit lower max weight although I can't find an official max weight on Gazelles site; but those don't seem like they would add up to almost $5000 worth of difference.

 

[AvalancheRun]

My thought is you are going R&M, go with a full suspension bike like Delite, Homage, Load. The R&M Homage bikes I've tried were definitely better that my new C380 in every way, except for quietness. The new C380 is incredibly quiet and I love it. At this moment, I'm set on going with a future version of the Homage or Delite. Also curious to hear insights into this.

 

[scrambler]

@AvalancheRun, if you are after a full suspension step through with Enviolo at a more reasonable price than the R&M, keep an eye on Zen who will be releasing one by the end of the year.

'Zen Skunkworks' - a new model in the development

I personally, as an owner of one, wouldn't recommend the M620 for a rental bike. Perhaps the new M560 that appears to be the latest refinement of the M600 that still will have plenty of power and be much lighter might be a better option? I do like the concept of this bike though.

electricbikereview.com

Some available in august with chain and derailleur, Enviolo and Gates Carbon belt towards the end of the year normally if all goes well.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

The R&M Homage bikes I've tried were definitely better that my new C380 in every way

Please name the advantages

 

[AvalancheRun]

Please name the advantages

Sure - so keep in mind this is about 30 minutes total of hot laps.

Homage bikes smoothed out bumps really well. I didn't feel any jolts to my back or neck. they felt more planted (also heavier of course), handled with more confidence (especially uneven terrain), took turns tighter. Steering a little more satisfying. I love the design, front rack, etc. too so some bias there. The tires were very knobby (GX upgrade, I think), but also quiet. Tried with Enviolo and Rohloff. I seemed to prefer Rohloff simply because you can shift while applying power.

Overall: loved the rear suspension and the bike felt a touch more solid/premium made for an exhilarating ride. I likedened it to a Porsche Taycan, if that makes sense. No smart system for Homage is a major negative at this moment. It's coming this year.

What do you think?

 

[kerradeph]

My thought is you are going R&M, go with a full suspension bike like Delite, Homage, Load. The R&M Homage bikes I've tried were definitely better that my new C380 in every way, except for quietness. The new C380 is incredibly quiet and I love it. At this moment, I'm set on going with a future version of the Homage or Delite. Also curious to hear insights into this.

Yeah, I've primarily been looking at hard tail bikes since the rear suspension adds weight, complexity, and significant cost while reducing the weight limit. I imagine they're using the high end shocks designed to minimize loss of power while pedalling. Also, so far it doesn't seem like R&M have done a Bosch Smart System version of the Delite or Homage.

 

[AvalancheRun]

Yeah, I've primarily been looking at hard tail bikes since the rear suspension adds weight, complexity, and significant cost while reducing the weight limit. I imagine they're using the high end shocks designed to minimize loss of power while pedalling. Also, so far it doesn't seem like R&M have done a Bosch Smart System version of the Delite or Homage.

Coming later this year according to my dealer. Regarding the suspension, their marketing materials stress the efficiency of the dual suspension. I loved it, dead set on one for the future, but absolutely loving my C380 (non-Avignon) right now. It's a really, really nice bike.
Avignon btw is super upright (think Dorothy from the Wizard of Oz), with bigger tires, and using the old black and white screen. I found the suspension seat post in Avignon to have weird movement. The Nevo is probably more comparable to the standard C380.

Last thing I'll say is, if you can, test ride them twice.

 

[kerradeph]

Coming later this year according to my dealer. Regarding the suspension, their marketing materials stress the efficiency of the dual suspension. I loved it, dead set on one for the future, but absolutely loving my C380 (non-Avignon) right now. It's a really, really nice bike.
Avignon btw is super upright (think Dorothy from the Wizard of Oz), with bigger tires, and using the old black and white screen. I found the suspension seat post in Avignon to have weird movements. The Nevo is probably more comparable to the standard C380.

Last thing I'll say is, if you can, test ride them twice.

I'm guessing you're saying to ride them twice so that the first one kind of gets me over the "ooh" factor and then the second time I am getting more into the nitty gritty aspects of it?

I'm still torn on the value of full suspension over hard tail. Having a more rigid frame makes it more efficient than you could probably ever get suspension to be and it means fewer aspects to consider when it comes to wear and tear. Getting decent seat suspension will help significantly with the drawbacks of hard tail but weighs a lot less, doesn't compromise the structure of the frame, and is a lot fewer moving parts than a full suspension setup. Also, I'm just generally not a fan of the aesthetic of the R&M full suspension bikes.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Sure - so keep in mind this is about 30 minutes total of hot laps.

Homage bikes smoothed out bumps really well. I didn't feel any jolts to my back or neck. they felt more planted (also heavier of course), handled with more confidence (especially uneven terrain), took turns tighter. Steering a little more satisfying. I love the design, front rack, etc. too so some bias there. The tires were very knobby (GX upgrade, I think), but also quiet. Tried with Enviolo and Rohloff. I seemed to prefer Rohloff simply because you can shift while applying power.

Overall: loved the rear suspension and the bike felt a touch more solid/premium made for an exhilarating ride. I likedened it to a Porsche Taycan, if that makes sense. No smart system for Homage is a major negative at this moment. It's coming this year.

What do you think?

Avalanche: a person that buys an R&M e-bike (especially the Homage) is of the category of people to buy a SUV and never go off-road with it A luxury e-bike. You need to pay for the luxury.

I really do not like to irritate R&M owners (who are a really good & nice breed of people) but consider:

• Heavy weight of R&M e-bikes
• Flaking paint on new e-bikes
• Rohloff oil leaks

I would not expect that from such expensive e-bikes. If you want to pay the premium on the luxury, it is your money. Only buy a Smart System R&M e-bike.
The C380 might have no "luxury feel" of the Homage but it is a practical low maintenance all-rounder that always can be upgraded. I have never heard a Gazelle owner sound dissatisfied!

 

[kerradeph]

Avalanche: a person that buys an R&M e-bike (especially the Homage) is of the category of people to buy a SUV and never go off-road with it A luxury e-bike. You need to pay for the luxury.

I really do not like to irritate R&M owners (who are a really good & nice breed of people) but consider:

• Heavy weight of R&M e-bikes
• Flaking paint on new e-bikes
• Rohloff oil leaks

I would not expect that from such expensive e-bikes. If you want to pay the premium on the luxury, it is your money. Only buy a Smart System R&M e-bike.
The C380 might have no "luxury feel" of the Homage but it is a practical low maintenance all-rounder that always can be upgraded. I have never heard a Gazelle owner sound dissatisfied!

Between the Nevo4 Vario and the Ultimate C380 there seems to be about a 10 pound difference, however the Ultimate has a lower weight capacity as well, significantly smaller battery, limited suspension, and I don't actually know if it is the smart system or not since it's not specified there and nothing from Gazelle seems to be listed on Bosch's site for Smart.

I don't think the difference in a few components would make that much of a difference, I could see maybe $500-800 for the difference in battery, but that would probably be the biggest single item between the two. So is the manufacturing that big of an impact to the price between the two or is it primarily just a markup for the name?

How prevalent is the flaking on R&M bikes? Or is that in general? Could I use tape or something to partially protect it?

 

[Stefan Mikes]

I don't actually know if it is the smart system or not

It is. Ask @AvalancheRun.

 

[AvalancheRun]

I'm guessing you're saying to ride them twice so that the first one kind of gets me over the "ooh" factor and then the second time I am getting more into the nitty gritty aspects of it?

I'm still torn on the value of full suspension over hard tail. Having a more rigid frame makes it more efficient than you could probably ever get suspension to be and it means fewer aspects to consider when it comes to wear and tear. Getting decent seat suspension will help significantly with the drawbacks of hard tail but weighs a lot less, doesn't compromise the structure of the frame, and is a lot fewer moving parts than a full suspension setup. Also, I'm just generally not a fan of the aesthetic of the R&M full suspension bikes.

Riding on two separate days really helped me. Yep, I'm going to get a Kinekt or Redshift suspension seatpost for my Gazelle. It's a very comfortable bike, but I'm riding so much further.

Avalanche: a person that buys an R&M e-bike (especially the Homage) is of the category of people to buy a SUV and never go off-road with it A luxury e-bike. You need to pay for the luxury.

I really do not like to irritate R&M owners (who are a really good & nice breed of people) but consider:

• Heavy weight of R&M e-bikes
• Flaking paint on new e-bikes
• Rohloff oil leaks

I would not expect that from such expensive e-bikes. If you want to pay the premium on the luxury, it is your money. Only buy a Smart System R&M e-bike.
The C380 might have no "luxury feel" of the Homage but it is a practical low maintenance all-rounder that always can be upgraded. I have never heard a Gazelle owner sound dissatisfied!

Ohh, didn't know about the latter two. That's a disappointment, but not a dealbreaker for me personally. Just like with cars, more sophisticated, more problems.. but oh, the ride!

2023 C380 (denim/mallard blue colors) use the Bosch Smart System. The toughest part about Gazelle is understanding their product line!

 

[Stefan Mikes]

The toughest part about Gazelle is understanding their product line!

That is correct! However excellent Gazelle e-bikes might be (now I believe they are excellent!), the company website is rather hopeless when it comes to the technical specification. Trek, Specialized, Giant, Cannondale and many other give so precise description of the parts used that it is enough to find, say, a replacement cassette after several years. The Gazelle specification is, er, laconic

R&M is very detailed with its specs although many parts listed are options to be ordered.

 

[kerradeph]

That is correct! However excellent Gazelle e-bikes might be (now I believe they are excellent!), the company website is rather hopeless when it comes to the technical specification. Trek, Specialized, Giant, Cannondale and many other give so precise description of the parts used that it is enough to find, say, a replacement cassette after several years. The Gazelle specification is, er, laconic

R&M is very detailed with its specs although many parts listed are options to be ordered.

Yeah, it's immensely frustrating trying to find out what you're getting with Gazelle. I'm curious how many people they've lost as potential customers because of poor website design. And R&M could definitely use some refinement to their listings as well; If they changed their site to show which parts were provided by which options it would make it a lot easier to make sense of what you're looking at.

 

[Brendon@OEB]

Yeah, it's immensely frustrating trying to find out what you're getting with Gazelle. I'm curious how many people they've lost as potential customers because of poor website design. And R&M could definitely use some refinement to their listings as well; If they changed their site to show which parts were provided by which options it would make it a lot easier to make sense of what you're looking at.

What's frustrating about their site? Are you talking about specific parts and build details? Everything is subject to change with part spec's on builds, it's always been like that and the pandemic made folks realize this truth.

I doubt they're losing many customers from website design, take a guess at average Gazelle customer age...most of those folks "want to talk to a real person"

 

[Stefan Mikes]

take a guess at average Gazelle customer age...most of those folks "want to talk to a real person"

I prefer to study the Internet before I talk to a real person (who often knows less of e-bikes than I do).
I give that the European site of Gazelle has improved tremendously regarding the specifications (I've looked at the Ultimate C380 HMB 2023 on the Polish site, English language). It was not that good in the past!

Although they could employ an English native speaker

 

[AvalancheRun]

What's frustrating about their site? Are you talking about specific parts and build details? Everything is subject to change with part spec's on builds, it's always been like that and the pandemic made folks realize this truth.

I doubt they're losing many customers from website design, take a guess at average Gazelle customer age...most of those folks "want to talk to a real person"

I found myself spending 3x the time on the Gazelle site compared to Specialized, Trek, R&M, etc.

There is a lot of similarity between the models and it is not always clear which is better. Also a lot of nomenclature to deal with: T10, +, HMB, C, C5, C7, C8.
Arroyo, Ultimate, Medeo look very similar. Avignon vs C380 was a tricky one to understand. Differences between the display screens, lights, etc. I still don't even understand what "380" stands for

Specialized, for instance provides MUCH better photos of the bikes. They provide the info on the product page in a more concise format while not sacrificing any detail.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

There is a lot of similarity between the models and it is not always clear which is better. Also a lot of nomenclature to deal with: T10, +, HMB, C, C5, C7, C8.
Arroyo, Ultimate, Medeo look very similar. Avignon vs C380 was a tricky one to understand. Differences between the display screens, lights, etc. I still don't even understand what "380" stands for

That's very right although someone in these Forums gave an ultimate guide to the Gazelle naming convention once "380" is for the 380% range Enviolo IGH. "T" is for chain, "T9" is for a 9-speed derailleur...

A visit to the Gazelle site made me understand the availability of the Smart System e-bike for my country was scarce. Meanwhile, I can buy any Specialized e-bike, and at greatly reduced prices now, and indeed the Specialized website is far better readable, similarly to Giant and Trek

 

[Neville Welsh]

I really do not like to irritate R&M owners (who are a really good & nice breed of people) but consider:

• Heavy weight of R&M e-bikes
• Flaking paint on new e-bikes
• Rohloff oil leaks

I would not expect that from such expensive e-bikes. If you want to pay the premium on the luxury, it is your money. Only buy a Smart System R&M e-bike.
The C380 might have no "luxury feel" of the Homage but it is a practical low maintenance all-rounder that always can be upgraded. I have never heard a Gazelle owner sound dissatisfied!

As a Superdelite owner I can confirm your first point - the bike is heavy However, the geometry is fairly sporty so it's not a problem riding it aggressively on even loose surfaces such as gravel and forrest roads. You can "lay down" the bike underneath you when turning in hard and fast, and you will still maintain grip.
One obvious advantage of the weight of the bike (33 kg) and a galloping midlife crisis (98 kg) is that you do gain a considerable speed downhill

Regarding the paint I cannot say I've noticed any problems or lack of quality. No flaking or chipped paint, although the front brake cable has been rubbing against the frame and made its mark on the R & E logo. It's not a big deal but it is unnecessary.

I've had no oil leaks so far. I think I read it had something to do with the oil contracting and expanding due to changes in temperature, but I've had no such issues and I use the bike on a daily basis - also during the winter (up to -11 degrees celsius)

In my opinion the only annoying things about the Superdelite, is the front fender and the support. The support rattles on uneven surfaces, but KTM front fender is just a ridiculous piece of crap. It's fastened in three places on the fork; on the brace and each of the lower legs. On a bumpy ride the plastic rings attached to the lower legs will slide down and twist the fender out of place, resulting in the fender stays catching the tire knobs. Very annoying! It also scratches the paintwork on the fork.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

One obvious advantage of the weight of the bike (33 kg) and a galloping midlife crisis (98 kg) is that you do gain a considerable speed downhill

Oh yes!

Regarding the paint I cannot say I've noticed any problems or lack of quality. No flaking or chipped paint, although the front brake cable has been rubbing against the frame and made its mark on the R & E logo. It's not a big deal but it is unnecessary.

R&M might have addressed that issue.

I've had no oil leaks so far. I think I read it had something to do with the oil contracting and expanding due to changes in temperature, but I've had no such issues and I use the bike on a daily basis - also during the winter (up to -11 degrees celsius)

There is yet another user reporting Rohloff oil leak due to worn gaskets.

he Superdelite, is the front fender and the support. The support rattles on uneven surfaces, but KTM front fender is just a ridiculous piece of crap. It's fastened in three places on the fork; on the brace and each of the lower legs. On a bumpy ride the plastic rings attached to the lower legs will slide down and twist the fender out of place, resulting in the fender stays catching the tire knobs. Very annoying! It also scratches the paintwork on the fork.

It is certainly not a deal breaker, especially as the fender could be removed/replaced, and that is not an issue only pertaining to your e-bike brand and model.

Any pedal strokes on cornering?

I'm not particularly negative to R&M e-bikes. A very good brand of luxury e-bikes. The OP was trying to understand the price discrepancy between the two brands. One of the reasons is the luxury image of R&M. The second one is the far smaller production output of the German company and the need to stay profitable.