Proper seats/saddles (especially for an e-bike)

[GuruUno]

So, I just watched the "How to Perform a Simple Bike Fit (at Home)" on Cam Nicholls YouTube channel. The big challenge is to find someone in the local area with similar skill to perform the items shown and discussed. Obviously, my previous "fitter" was not even close. Anyone have anybody in the Central NJ area that hast the time, skills and capabilities as shown in the video?

 

[Marcela]

I’ve got a bike path out front of my place. I watch people ride by and can tell how their bike fits. Like knowing a good horse or dog. Take a video of you riding the bike and post it up and see if any comments come forth.

 

[m@Robertson]

I’m having trouble following this. If you’re “off the saddle” at a stop, then by definition wouldn’t your feet have to be “on the ground” (otherwise, you’d have to be levitating)? I feel like I’m missing something obvious here.

Well, a couple of the folks in this thread have beat me to it already. Your seatpost is raised to provide proper riding form, and the saddle is not meant to be used when you have stopped. Yes you stand up at a stoplight. I pull my right foot out of the cleat and stand on that one so I guess I'm a right-footer.

Are you in essence saying that your seatpost should be set so high that it’s basically impossible for your feet to touch the ground while sitting in the saddle, meaning you’d have no choice but to dismount at a stop so that you don’t fall over?

Not quite. If you can stand on tippy-toe then I guess that works, but there's no guarantee this is possible, nor should it necessarily be possible. Again the saddle height is set for riding and its expected that you will get off the saddle when stopping.

I am a daily commute and urban utility rider, so I sit at a lot of stoplights. About half the time I find a curb and - since that is raised something like 6 inches off the level of pavement, I pull close and set my right foot on the curb, so I can stay on the saddle and make a more graceful getaway at the green light. But the other half of the time, if there's a dedicated turn lane for instance that makes the curb stand sub-optimal, I uncleat as I am braking, stop dead and lift off the seat and stand with my right leg on the ground.

I find it hard enough to get back up on the saddle smoothly even with it set at the height it is currently (which is the “being able to touch the ground with tippy toes while in the saddle”, which I thought was the standard advice), let alone having it any higher.

Well, bicycle fitment instruction does not concern itself with standing on the ground, on tiptoes or otherwise. It focuses on the bend in your knees and all the stuff mentioned earlier - while you are in the saddle riding. None of that contemplates a standing position. But if you do factor in a foot on the ground in any capacity, then the only way to make it happen is to lower the seatpost, which screws up your leg extension etc. etc. This is just something you have to learn to deal with. If you sacrifice the leg extension, you also more or less sacrifice your knees (increased stress) assuming you are pedaling. But if you do not pedal then that lower seatpost and 'motorcycle stance' at a stoplight fits right in.

Not treating this as a fork in the thread because saddle height is a part of the overall setup that needs to be figured out for @GuruUno. There's more going on for him than picking a different saddle.

 

[m@Robertson]

I know there is no 1-stop-shop answer, but there must be some 'authority' that has this all documented on film, no?

If there is, I've never seen it. Not on the level of this branch of foot-on-the-ground, stand-up-at-a-stoplight etc. (btw I am right foot uncleated, left foot first pedal stroke, and while that left foot is providing the initial power the right foot is getting cleated back in; I have my left foot positioned so its up high on the stroke so I can stand up high on my left leg and thus lower myself down into the saddle as I push the crank forward and down).

Ebikes have added zillions of new cyclists to the roadways, but as you say yourself, a lot of these new riders haven't been riding since their youth, and now they are on bikes that let them do 20-30 miles at a pop no problem, which was once reserved for people who had gathered up a lot of experience over time to get up to that level.

Stuff like this is generally figured out over time the hard way, while the rider is operating at a much lower level where consequences are not as severe.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

@GuruUno: I had a long sleep after my 100 km ride of yesterday (I was malnourished as all food places were closed for Easter Monday; and it was a tad too cold for me) so let me answer your questions without quoting you. And some additional information.

• When the cranks are at the level, my knees are really bent (right angle). With the leg fully extended, the knee is slightly bend (it cannot be straight!) That gives you the proper and efficient use of your leg power.
• Does 1 cm of the saddle height make any difference? It is a fundamental difference! Quite recently, I set off for a short shopping ride to notice I felt like a duck while pedalling. Why? Upon arriving home, I took a tape measure and measured the distance from the centre of the bottom bracket to the top of the saddle. It was 71 while I know it should be 72 cm! After I brought the saddle up to the proper height, I could pedal normally and efficiently again.
• One of my friends, a female, got a new XC bike from her Dad last Autumn. She is unable to ride that bike with the saddle at the proper height; she is afraid to lose control, and she feels she must be seated while stopping. When she's pedalling, it looks as if her knees were close to her chin! It makes her pedalling as inefficient she can only ride her bike at some 9 mph, which is a laugh as she is a sporty person!

Guru, there is something you might do if you want to feel secure on stopping but ride in a normal, efficient position: Installing an electronically actuated dropper seat-post. I do not say you must do it; it's just an option. While stopped, your dropper would be down, and you could fully support yourself with both feet flat on the ground. When restarting the ride, you put your bike in motion, raise yourself on the pedals and press the dropper button. Zoom! And the seat would be at the proper height! Want to stop? Press the button, and your body weight will make the seat travel all way down so you can support yourself with your feet again. I'm talking the "electronically actuated" as the mechanical solution would require routing a new cable inside the frame (as it is in Tero).

Just a thought.

 

[GuruUno]

@GuruUno: I had a long sleep after my 100 km ride of yesterday (I was malnourished as all food places were closed for Easter Monday; and it was a tad too cold for me) so let me answer your questions without quoting you. And some additional information.

• When the cranks are at the level, my knees are really bent. With the leg fully extended, the knee is slightly bend (it cannot be straight!) That gives you the proper and efficient use of your leg power.
• Does 1 cm of the saddle height make any difference? It is a fundamental difference! Quite recently, I set off for a short shopping ride to notice I felt like a duck while pedalling. Why? Upon arriving home, I took a tape measure and measured the distance from the centre of the bottom bracket to the top of the saddle. It was 71 while I know it should be 72 cm! After I brought the saddle up to the proper height, I could pedal normally and efficiently again.
• One of my friends, a female, got a new XC bike from her Dad last Autumn. She is unable to ride that bike with the saddle at the proper height; she is afraid to lose control, and she feels she must be seated while stopping. When she's pedalling, it looks as if her knees were close to her chin! It makes her pedalling as inefficient she can only ride her bike at some 9 mph, which is a laugh as she is a sporty person!

Guru, there is something you might do if you want to feel secure on stopping but ride in a normal, efficient position: Installing an electronically actuated dropper seat-post. I do not say you must do it; it's just an option. While stopped, your dropper would be down, and you could fully support yourself with both feet flat on the ground. When restarting the ride, you put your bike in motion, raise yourself on the pedals and press the dropper button. Zoom! And the seat would be at the proper height! Want to stop? Press the button, and your body weight will make the seat travel all way down so you can support yourself with your feet again. I'm talking the "electronically actuated" as the mechanical solution would require routing a new cable inside the frame (as it is in Tero).

Just a thought.

Or.......it might be time for a Tero X 6.0

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Or.......it might be time for a Tero X 6.0

True fact about "SUV e-bikes" is these typically include a dropper seat-post not for the features sought in mountain biking but for the user comfort!

 

[mschwett]

Or.......it might be time for a Tero X 6.0

it’s always time for a new bike!

 

[GuruUno]

@GuruUno: I had a long sleep after my 100 km ride of yesterday (I was malnourished as all food places were closed for Easter Monday; and it was a tad too cold for me) so let me answer your questions without quoting you. And some additional information.

• When the cranks are at the level, my knees are really bent (right angle). With the leg fully extended, the knee is slightly bend (it cannot be straight!) That gives you the proper and efficient use of your leg power.
• Does 1 cm of the saddle height make any difference? It is a fundamental difference! Quite recently, I set off for a short shopping ride to notice I felt like a duck while pedalling. Why? Upon arriving home, I took a tape measure and measured the distance from the centre of the bottom bracket to the top of the saddle. It was 71 while I know it should be 72 cm! After I brought the saddle up to the proper height, I could pedal normally and efficiently again.
• One of my friends, a female, got a new XC bike from her Dad last Autumn. She is unable to ride that bike with the saddle at the proper height; she is afraid to lose control, and she feels she must be seated while stopping. When she's pedalling, it looks as if her knees were close to her chin! It makes her pedalling as inefficient she can only ride her bike at some 9 mph, which is a laugh as she is a sporty person!

Guru, there is something you might do if you want to feel secure on stopping but ride in a normal, efficient position: Installing an electronically actuated dropper seat-post. I do not say you must do it; it's just an option. While stopped, your dropper would be down, and you could fully support yourself with both feet flat on the ground. When restarting the ride, you put your bike in motion, raise yourself on the pedals and press the dropper button. Zoom! And the seat would be at the proper height! Want to stop? Press the button, and your body weight will make the seat travel all way down so you can support yourself with your feet again. I'm talking the "electronically actuated" as the mechanical solution would require routing a new cable inside the frame (as it is in Tero).

Just a thought.

Can’t use a dropper post without giving up the Kinect seat post. Right?

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Can’t use a dropper post without giving up the Kinect seat post. Right?

Right.

 

[CMASteve]

Right.

BUT - You can put a suspension dropper post on instead. PNW Components - Coast suspension dropper post - just installed on my Tero 5.0 Not as "good" for suspension as a Kinect but does have 40mm air adjustable available.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

BUT - You can put a suspension dropper post on instead. PNW Components - Coast suspension dropper post - just installed on my Tero 5.0 Not as "good" for suspension as a Kinect but does have 40mm air adjustable available.

Steve, the PNW Coast experience was rather negative for me and two of my closest cousins. It is a good dropper post but there is a serious design flaw regarding the suspension: there is no translating action between the vertical rider's body movements and the angle of the seat-tube, making the suspension work pretty ineffectively. YMMV but PWN Coast is not what I would recommend to Guru, a demanding person after he has used a Kinekt for a long time.

Thinking and thinking... I am not sure Guru would be happy with a Tero X either as the latter has been designed for climbing not for speed!

 

[GuruUno]

Oh my, It may be time to consider packing it in. Woe is me.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Oh my, It may be time to consider packing it in. Woe is me.

How about learning to ride a bike properly, friend?

 

[Allan47.7339]

It's hard to ride properly when your seat to too sore to sit on the saddle.

There is another video on the same Cam Nicholls channel by the fitter:
A Simple Approach to Correct Saddle Height (for road cyclists)
It's mostly a discussion of why too high is worse than too low.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

There is another video on the same Cam Nicholls channel by the fitter:
A Simple Approach to Correct Saddle Height (for road cyclists)

All these videos focus on road cycling, bike fitters, and offer very little of practical information, I'm afraid (there's talk, talk, talk...)

The simplest method of them all is to stand on the left side of the bike, and firmly supporting your body on your right armpit resting on the saddle, fully extend your arm and hand with straight fingers towards the centre of the bottom bracket. If your fingers go past the bottom bracket, your saddle is too low. If the fingers cannot reach the centre of the bottom bracket, the saddle is too high.

It pertains to people of typical body proportions. In any case, that simplest technique is a good starting point to determine the proper saddle height. It has always worked for me since I was a kid and my Dad told me how to do it. (Now, I have memorized the proper distance of 72 cm or 28.3" for my current body size; I add 0.5 - 1 cm to account for the suspension seat-post sag). Note: My own "standover height" (not the inseam length!) is 78 cm, or 30.7".

This guy is slightly wrong: the body standover height should be measured in cycling shoes on, and the feet should be slightly apart (the way you are standing over the frame on your own bike).

 

[Kless]

All these videos focus on road cycling, bike fitters, and offer very little of practical information, I'm afraid (there's talk, talk, talk...)

The simplest method of them all is to stand on the left side of the bike, and firmly supporting your body on your right armpit resting on the saddle, fully extend your arm and hand with straight fingers towards the centre of the bottom bracket. If your fingers go past the bottom bracket, your saddle is too low. If the fingers cannot reach the centre of the bottom bracket, the saddle is too high.

It pertains to people of typical body proportions. In any case, that simplest technique is a good starting point to determine the proper saddle height. It has always worked for me since I was a kid and my Dad told me how to do it. (Now, I have memorized the proper distance of 72 cm or 28.3" for my current body size; I add 0.5 - 1 cm to account for the suspension seat-post sag). Note: My own "standover height" (not the inseam length!) is 78 cm, or 30.7".

This guy is slightly wrong: the body standover height should be measured in cycling shoes on, and the feet should be slightly apart (the way you are standing over the frame on your own bike).

Cool... I just tried the right arm thing and my fingers reach to the centre of the bottom bracket. I had never heard of that before.

 

[6zfshdb]

Steve, the PNW Coast experience was rather negative for me and two of my closest cousins. It is a good dropper post but there is a serious design flaw regarding the suspension: there is no translating action between the vertical rider's body movements and the angle of the seat-tube, making the suspension work pretty ineffectively. YMMV but PWN Coast is not what I would recommend to Guru, a demanding person after he has used a Kinekt for a long time.

The PNW Coast was a disappointment for me as well. A poor comparison to my Kinekt, Redshift and Thudbuster posts. It's not a bad dropper though. I suppose it would be better than no suspension at all.

 

[Marcela]

I was a pretty good runner, so I think of seat height as how do I want my legs bent while riding the bike. While sprinting, the legs are bent, if I get close to that everything seems to work alright.

Also, I find the pedals on these bikes too narrow. I have spacers on all my pedals. Could be why you are chaffing at the crotch or on the legs.

 

[GuruUno]

All these videos focus on road cycling, bike fitters, and offer very little of practical information, I'm afraid (there's talk, talk, talk...)

The simplest method of them all is to stand on the left side of the bike, and firmly supporting your body on your right armpit resting on the saddle, fully extend your arm and hand with straight fingers towards the centre of the bottom bracket. If your fingers go past the bottom bracket, your saddle is too low. If the fingers cannot reach the centre of the bottom bracket, the saddle is too high.

It pertains to people of typical body proportions. In any case, that simplest technique is a good starting point to determine the proper saddle height. It has always worked for me since I was a kid and my Dad told me how to do it. (Now, I have memorized the proper distance of 72 cm or 28.3" for my current body size; I add 0.5 - 1 cm to account for the suspension seat-post sag). Note: My own "standover height" (not the inseam length!) is 78 cm, or 30.7".

This guy is slightly wrong: the body standover height should be measured in cycling shoes on, and the feet should be slightly apart (the way you are standing over the frame on your own bike).

So my "book" measure is 30" (762 mm or 76.2 cm), if I add the 0.5 - 1 cm for the seat post sag, I fall within the medium size. I'll do the 'armpit measurement in a bit.