Peter Flax article for Bicycling.com about the challenges presented by DTC ebikes

[mschwett]

the brake stories are pretty terrifying. living in a hilly place, i would not keep a bike whose brakes lost their efficacy in hundreds (as opposed to thousands) of miles. the weight thing seems to be a red herring - yes, the bikes are heavy, but 40 or 50lb heavier than a lightweight bike is still within the acceptable load that any bike with reasonable brakes sees. two 11/12 year old girls plus a heavy bike is still less than a large male adult on a normal bike. my 14lb bike has a 275lb limit! and it has a 140mm rotor on the rear! aren’t these bikes 280mm?

historically, kids rode bikes with crappy brakes. sometimes we went down hills too fast… but i can tell you one thing we did not do much of - ride up and down 12% grades with a passenger. guess why? because our f’n bikes didn’t have motors, that’s why! the fact that this was an e-bike had nothing to do with the braking failure, or whatever it was, but it had everything to do with two girls riding it up that hill.

children should not ride e-bikes, in my opinion. kids are fairly light and once they get too heavy to be a passenger in a safe child-seat, they tend to have a pretty impressive strength to weight ratio to pedal THEMSELVES up hills. my 11 year old can out-climb me on a bike for a short period, and there is absolutely zero reason for her to use an electric bike to go faster than her legs can propel her.

 

[mschwett]

… I made it down 3 before crashing. My dad came down and carried me back to my grandparents. I was bloody from a couple of areas, but not terribly injured. I guess I was a little lucky.

Kids and sometimes parents do stupid things.

at age 11, i lived in oregon on a big hill, on a road which went down fairly steeply and then dead ended into a ring road which climbed gradually around the base. went riding down it with my brother one day, intersection was covered with wet leaves, hit the brakes, nothing happened, flew across and off the side of the perpendicular/ring road. woke up on some random neighbors property, easily 30 or 40 feet from the road. neighbors yelled at me to get out, i limped up the hill and over their perimeter shrubs and low fence while my brother retrieved my bike. my biggest fear - bigger than the pain of all the cuts and scrapes and bruises - was what my dad would do when he discovered that i crashed and got yelled at by a neighbor!!!

 

[BEC111]

What a fun thread. It has everything. A good lede. Mostly good arguments. Only a few insults. Recognition of the absurdities implied in the Bicyling.cpm article. And remembering the dumb stuff I did with my bike when I was a kid. I won’t even mention the dumb stuff I’ve done as a senior citizen.

 

[Tars Tarkas]

Your argument is a) we'd don't know how the girl who died and b) I haven't had problems, therefore there aren't problems.

B) is nice for you but contrary to what many others are reporting. And a) is correct but ultimately not that relevant, compared to the experiences of others, as Flax has documented.

A) Does seem relevant. This is about this .case, not other people's experiences.

B) The point is that Rad bikes aren't junk just because you look down your nose at them. For people willing and able to do their own maintenance on the bikes, they're great. Maybe not so much for other people. I certainly never said or meant to say that because I haven't had any problems therefore there are no problems. We don't know if the bike in this case had any problems though.

A final point on "problems". I consider brakes needing adjustment, for example, a maintenance issue, not a problem. If, and I say if, the brakes on this bike needed adjustment, to me that's an owner/operator issue, not something to sue the bike manufacturer over.

TT

 

[procreator]

Manufacturers certainly need to be held accountable for poor design, manufacturing, etc. But we also live in a society where there is always someone to blame for something. Everyone is a victim it seems.

Doesn't anyone want to "man up" and own their own stupidity (or their kid's)?

 

[Gordon71]

Manufacturers certainly need to be held accountable for poor design, manufacturing, etc. But we also live in a society where there is always someone to blame for something. Everyone is a victim it seems.

Doesn't anyone want to "man up" and own their own stupidity (or their kid's)?

Not when there are lawyers and dollar signs involved.

 

[harryS]

"We see Rads with improperly placed caliper mounts on the rear".
.
The caliper mounts are welded in by the frame maker. If those mounts were welded in the wrong position, yeah, put me on the jury. Someone is gonna pay. It's pretty hard to screw up a frame like that,
.
Maybe what they are likely seeing is too many washers under the caliper?
.
Washers is an easy mistake if you require the consumer to attach the calipers. As the quote implies, the pads only contact halfway, quickly wear down to the point where they will touch each other, and you have no braking at all.

 

[PDoz]

"We see Rads with improperly placed caliper mounts on the rear".
.
The caliper mounts are welded in by the frame maker. If those mounts were welded in the wrong position, yeah, put me on the jury. Someone is gonna pay. It's pretty hard to screw up a frame like that,
.
Maybe what they are likely seeing is too many washers under the caliper?
.
Washers is an easy mistake if you require the consumer to attach the calipers. As the quote implies, the pads only contact halfway, quickly wear down to the point where they will touch each other, and you have no braking at all.

Take another look. If the disc is more than 160 mm , there should ve a seperate mount between those lugs and the caliper . It's asymetrical , usually with an arrow pointing " up" for orientation on a front brake. On the rear, it's possible to interpret " up" incorrectly , especially if the bottom bracket sits below the rear axle!

 

[Mr. Coffee]

Washers is an easy mistake if you require the consumer to attach the calipers. As the quote implies, the pads only contact halfway, quickly wear down to the point where they will touch each other, and you have no braking at all.

That is a very plausible theory.

My reaction to all this is that no matter how heavy the bike and the rider, if you have to adjust the brakes every fifty miles something is Seriously Very Wrong. I think this is very much worth investigating.

Possibilities in order of likelihood:

1. Brakes were improperly installed by the end user.
2. Proper product design of the brake mounts by Rad and their Chinese partners, but newer parts have been substituted and were not adequately tested.
3. Improper product design of the brake mounts by Rad and their Chinese partners.

 

[m@Robertson]

Its not brain surgery. Its a really heavy bike. Cheap calipers. Cheap cable I am sure. Anyone want to make any bets on whether Rad spent the extra money for compressionless housing? Of course its a recipe for squishy brakes that go out of spec quickly. Thats what cabled brakes do on heavy ebikes that are being hauled down from 20 mph - versus 10 mph on a 25 lb bike - in the best of circumstances.

The brakes are unquestionably insufficient for a bike like that. Are they sufficient to be considered adequate enough to stave off a product liability lawsuit? Pretty much guarantee someone inside the company said 'yes' to that question.

Now we'll see.

 

[JedidiahStolzfus]

That is a very plausible theory.

My reaction to all this is that no matter how heavy the bike and the rider, if you have to adjust the brakes every fifty miles something is Seriously Very Wrong. I think this is very much worth investigating.

Possibilities in order of likelihood:

1. Brakes were improperly installed by the end user.
2. Proper produce design of the brake mounts by Rad and their Chinese partners, but newer parts have been substituted and were not adequately tested.
3. Improper product design of the brake mounts by Rad and their Chinese partners.

Only if the end user took them off when they unpacked the bike. Mine came with the brakes fully installed, the only thing needed to do was to back out the adjustment screw 2 clicks so that the rotor could be slipped between the pads. There really isn't much building on these bikes when they come. Handle bars, front wheel display panel and headlight. I honestly cannot remember if the rear wheel was installed or not on mine. I did have to take both wheels off a couple weeks later as my fenders came in late. There isn't anything more complex than turning an allen wrench. Chain didn't need any adjustments, and the brakes just needed the adjustment turned back down one click after installing the wheel.

I've pulled my pads and looked at them, they show even wear across the pad, both front and back. They do require occasional adjustment, probably once a month. I never gave it any thought because I'm new to the idea of a bike having rotor type brakes, and figured it was just normal.

I'm looking into putting the hydraulic type brakes linked above on before spring, but if the problem is improperly positioned caliper mounts, then wouldn't the same issues develop with them as the brakes they come with?

 

[gromike]

I bought a DTC ebike for my son a few years ago. He complained about the brakes. I did a test ride and it seemed fine to me, but I'm a front brake kinda rider. Well, my son got a car and I got an ebike. By then I noticed the brakes were tired. So I went to replace the brake pads, and found only one pad in the rear caliper! The pin was in, so I assume it was shipped that way. It wasn't a Rad Bike, BTW.
I have bought a couple more DTC ebikes since then, and everyone of them had issues, all of them bad, some serious.

 

[m@Robertson]

but if the problem is improperly positioned caliper mounts, then wouldn't the same issues develop with them as the brakes they come with?

Not necessarily. I've found that not all brake adapters are created equal. For instance, Avid adapters are sized assuming that you are using an Avid caliper mounting kit, which includes semi-hemispherical washers under the caliper... which means they are shorter than an adapter designed to just bolt directly to the caliper. So if you are doing your own fitment, you might end up needing a stack of washers to make up for that.

It is probably not always true, but I have had my best results matching calipers to adapters made by the same manufacturer. Since I started doing that my brake installs are ine-and-done brainless bolt-ons with no more washers making up for goofball mismatches.

 

[Nomad]

Regardless of what company it is cable operated disc brakes on a new Ebike in this day and age is a red flag at best. Meaning if you're looking at bike with them be very suspicious of adequacy of them.

 

[Gordon71]

Regardless of what company it is cable operated disc brakes on a new Ebike in this day and age is a red flag at best. Meaning if you're looking at bike with them be very suspicious of adequacy of them.

I'll admit the cable actuated hydraulic calipers are much better than the stock calipers that came on my Rad Rover but the stock brakes were also perfectly adequate. I only switched when my stock front caliper wore out and Rad did not have them on their parts page. Might do the same someday on my Rad Mini if a similar thing happens.

 

[procreator]

Regardless of what company it is cable operated disc brakes on a new Ebike in this day and age is a red flag at best. Meaning if you're looking at bike with them be very suspicious of adequacy of them.

I disagree. Mechanical disk brakes are easier to maintain and adjust. They have their place.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

I disagree. Mechanical disk brakes are easier to maintain and adjust. They have their place.

Ya, and some people prefer not to be anesthetized at the dentist

 

[Nomad]

I disagree. Mechanical disk brakes are easier to maintain and adjust. They have their place.

I said you need to look at them because most of them aren't going to be good enough not all but most. my hydraulic are very easy to maintain and require less of it. Do you have to adjust your brakes on car or have them adjusted often?

 

[Gordon71]

Ya, and some people prefer not to be anesthetized at the dentist

You'll have to explain that one. I've adjusted mechanical brakes several times. It's easy, quick, and never been painful.

 

[JedidiahStolzfus]

I said you need to look at them because most of them aren't going to be good enough not all but most. my hydraulic are very easy to maintain and require less of it. Do you have to adjust your brakes on car or have them adjusted often?

I'm sure that auto-adjusting brakes could be designed for a bike much like on a car, it would add yet another layer of complexity as well as weight. If you have a car with drum brakes in the rear, there is an adjustment that needs to be done at times, but it just involves driving in reverse and applying the brakes so that the parking brake is properly adjusted (not all cars do that).