People for Bikes: Progress on Ebike Laws in the US

[Browneye]

The bafang hub kit on our Roll has s 32mph or kmh top speed. In mph it's stupid fast, but you can limit the top speed to whatever you want. I have it set at 22, and she's happy with that. But on a long flat she walks away from the 19mph top speed of the C1 Giant Explore. Pretty comical, cuz I pedal faster and harder than she does, but if I want to ride with assist I'm stuck at a lower top speed.

 

[Mass Deduction]

The bafang hub kit on our Roll has s 32mph or kmh top speed. In mph it's stupid fast, but you can limit the top speed to whatever you want. I have it set at 22, and she's happy with that. But on a long flat she walks away from the 19mph top speed of the C1 Giant Explore. Pretty comical, cuz I pedal faster and harder than she does, but if I want to ride with assist I'm stuck at a lower top speed.

I was pretty stoked when I discovered it was possible to set different top speeds for each level of assist on the E8000 motor, but bummed to learn that to do so you need to void your warranty by using unlicenced software. To me, setting different maximum speeds for each level of assist is a genius feature. Maybe someone with a speed bike wants to limit one of their modes of assist to a trail-legal 32 km/h mode, for example. Or maybe someone with a class 1 bike also wants a slower mode for super long-distance riding. There could be all kinds of reasons to want to mix and match different max speeds, with extended range being a major one.

Maybe it'll come some day.

And wow, your choice of either 32 mph or 32 km/h? That's crazy! That almost sounds like a bug! 32 mph is stupid fast.

 

[Browneye]

Especially on the ROLL!
Fancy beach-cruiser on steroids. Lol

The 48v 500w hub is plenty peppy. It's the larger 170mm unit. Very happy with it.

 

[Mass Deduction]

Especially on the ROLL!
Fancy beach-cruiser on steroids. Lol

The 48v 500w hub is plenty peppy. It's the larger 170mm unit. Very happy with it.

In experimenting with different top speeds, there's a huge range hit to higher speeds on an otherwise identical set-up. So a nice option in an appropriate moment. Riding on the highway, which I do regularly, the more I reduce the speed differential between me and the traffic the safer I feel. But on city streets and bike paths, class 1 speed is plenty for me.

I also find class 3 speeds are most useful on flat-ish routes. On a route with rolling hills the advantage of class 3 speeds is significantly reduced (because it's hard to go much faster than 32 km/h on the uphill even with assist, and it's easy to go as fast or faster than 45 km/h on the descent without assist... YMMV depending on the power of the bike and your fitness level of course!).

 

[Dewey]

Perhaps California marks the 24th then. Interesting to know which ones are next on their lobbying list. I wonder why those ones? With 26 to choose from, why are those the top remaining targets for them?

Well for Virginia it’s because the state assembly flipped to the democrats in the November election, there is a logjam of legislation so it’s anybody’s guess if they get round to it next year

 

[Mass Deduction]

NO MORE RULES. I’m firmly against more of a nanny than the restrictive federal limits. 250W will NOT haul my groceries and cargo. Some of us use bikes to avoid riding in cages. Power output of an acoustic has no relevance here.

[...]
The 48v 500w hub is plenty peppy. It's the larger 170mm unit. Very happy with it.

Aren't wattage/voltage/amperage ratings part of the calculation of how quickly the motor needs to drain the battery to do what it does, rather than how much power the motor produces? A more efficient motor could be more powerful at a lower wattage than a less efficient motor at a higher wattage.

To your point @Thomas Jaszewski, as motors get more efficient then any legislated maximum wattages should surely become less restricting, wouldn't they? Saying 250w won't haul your groceries may be true now, but not true in the future. And I'm not aware of any state that limits motors to only 250w anyway, isn't that just a European thing (and one that the companies are adept at getting around anyway by having separate "nominal" and "max" wattages)?

To your point @Browneye, I've ridden 500w motors that felt anemic and 250w motors that felt powerful. In the same way a 10w LED lightbulb typically produces more light than a 60w incandescent. One draws a lot of power but does very little with it; the other draws very little power, but does a lot with it.

Yes, a motor that draws more wattage will tend to feel more powerful, but there are exceptions both ways. Give me a motor that's adept at doing more with less, over one that's adept at draining the battery depressingly quickly.

I think the future is motors that do more with less, as that means smaller/lighter/cheaper batteries (or larger batteries that offer crazily long ranges on a single charge). Unless I'm missing something, that should be the ideal, not motors that just drain the battery faster in lieu of actually improving the motor's efficiency.

 

[Browneye]

Our two bikes feel more similar than different - one is rated at 250w @36v and the other 500w @48v.
Pretty sure the smaller one has better range, they're very close in rated amp-hours, about 11 and change. We generally ride double miles from what we used to before e-assist, or 20-30 miles. Both bikes use about 40 to 50% of their charge.

The mid drive is much more integrated and natural feeling, and better for diverse terrain. No throttle - you have to pedal. The other will go all by itself if you want. They are both very fun and immensely better than pedal-only. One cost twice as much as the other - no problem guessing which one is which. Lol

And yes, both would lose half their range if you tried to ride them at 28-30mph.

 

[opimax]

Noting 11 amp hours at 48v is much more energy then 11 amp hours at 36v

 

[Deaf Gryphon]

what really gets my goat is the anal spandex wearing psychos

Oh man I spit out my hot tea and laughed out loud at this... well done. I am going to use this as my signature quote from now on...

 

[tomjasz]

The BPSA/People for bikes mentioned recently the 3-class law is in place in 23 states, and they are going to lobby another 14 state assemblies in 2020

That sucks! Jeez, more dumb restrictions! But it'll be good for the kit business.

 

[scottonabike]

That sucks! Jeez, more dumb restrictions! But it'll be good for the kit business.

In the end, regulations legitimize the industry.

 

[tomjasz]

In the end, regulations legitimize the industry.

Horsepucky. It dumbs down and hobbles us with underpowered bikes.

 

[scottonabike]

Horsepucky. It dumbs down and hobbles us with underpowered bikes.

k.

 

[tomjasz]

k.

I think all bus services should be better regulated and seat belts mandatory. Of course not true, but how would increased nanny state regulations affect your business?

 

[harryS]

How true.....Hey! maybe they should outlaw descents where gravity is assisting as would a motor. Joking of course. It’s really all about reasonable speeds and courtesy.

I been in your state and recall a 26 mph limit on some of the descents. Dear wife is softly riding the brakes to comply. It wasn't busy so only one gal passed us.

 

[Mass Deduction]

Horsepucky. It dumbs down and hobbles us with underpowered bikes.

There are already federal laws in the U.S. that limit motors to less than 750w and limit the top speed when using a throttle to 20 mph.

This creates a grey area about how fast you can go when not using a throttle, and these state laws turn that from a grey area into something codified in law (typically 28 mph). And that's just about all these state laws do. They make no difference for how high the wattage can go, and they make no difference for how fast a bike can go when being used with a throttle.

You seem to prefer no state regulation, but you seem misinformed about what that would mean for overpowered throttle-equipped bikes.

 

[Mass Deduction]

I think all bus services should be better regulated and seat belts mandatory. Of course not true, but how would increased nanny state regulations affect your business?

Nanny state? Jimminy cricket, e-bike users have it easy IMO. Car drivers have to be licenced, their cars registered, the minimum type of insurance they need to have regulated, minimum levels of fuel efficiency dictated, seat belt use is compulsory, and much, much more.

Against all of that, if the only restrictions we have are max wattage and max speeds, then we have it easy.

 

[opimax]

in my case, a recently retired person. I would take all the regulations , including insurance , registration etc as a trade off to get max wattage and max speed and be legal anywhere with my class 3 bike. No more stealth needed, no more worrying about what happens if I get in accident not my fault but I am not legal on the rails to trail with wide open spaces which is flat unobstructed views etc. it would be just like driving on the hwy except bikes only, a perfect environment to get a daily 100+ miles a ride.

 

[StmbtDave]

in my case, a recently retired person. I would take all the regulations , including insurance , registration etc as a trade off to get max wattage and max speed and be legal anywhere with my class 3 bike. No more stealth needed, no more worrying about what happens if I get in accident not my fault but I am not legal on the rails to trail with wide open spaces which is flat unobstructed views etc. it would be just like driving on the hwy except bikes only, a perfect environment to get a daily 100+ miles a ride.

There are electric motorcycles on the market today that will perfectly meet your requirements. Let's keep a bike a bike!

 

[6zfshdb]

in my case, a recently retired person. I would take all the regulations , including insurance , registration etc as a trade off to get max wattage and max speed and be legal anywhere with my class 3 bike. No more stealth needed, no more worrying about what happens if I get in accident not my fault but I am not legal on the rails to trail with wide open spaces which is flat unobstructed views etc. it would be just like driving on the hwy except bikes only, a perfect environment to get a daily 100+ miles a ride.

I understand your sentiment and partially agree but unfortunately, it is self defeating. It is these high speed, high power bikes in the hands of irresponsible riders that will only serve to increase regulation. "Outlaw" riders don't care about laws, license, registration or insurance and will simply ride anyway.

IMO, a better approach would be to issue permits and / or bike stickers that would allow elderly, handicapped or otherwise "responsible" persons to operate class 3, or even higher power bikes on trails. It would be similar to policies involving electric wheelchairs.

All these laws and regulations are aimed at the relatively small percentage of ebikers who are idiots and it's the rest of us who suffer. It's the riders who need to be regulated, not the bikes.