People for Bikes: Progress on Ebike Laws in the US

[tomjasz]

We should all keep in mind that just because an ebike may have assist to higher speeds like 28mph or even a bit higher it doesn't mean that the rider will always be traveling at that top speed. There is no reason to believe that speed limits on the bike lanes/paths/sidewalks would not work any less than they do for cars (some of which can now go over 250mph). We need effective human scale transportation a lot more than we need the mamby-pambies telling everyone that anything over 25kph on an ebike is just too dangerous to allow.

Sadly, a 3Kw motor on a Walmart bike IS dangerous. No one is being " mamby-pambies". These ill-advised builds are what will bring more regulations and get all the press. Not unlike OSHA, Dumb rules, mostly common sense rules, with BIG fines, because common sense ain't so common.

 

[Ken M]

Sadly, a 3Kw motor on a Walmart bike IS dangerous. No one is being " mamby-pambies". These ill-advised builds are what will bring more regulations and get all the press. Not unlike OSHA, Dumb rules, mostly common sense rules, with BIG fines, because common sense ain't so common.

My take on anyone putting 3KW on a Walmart bike is tempting a Darwanistic fate. So long as they don't hurt others I don't think any of use should feel sorry for them.

I know this. I'm 58 years old and to this day when I ride my non-electric road bike I'll hit about 35mph quite frequently going downhill on street bike lanes and road shoulders. Been doing that far longer than the "mamby-pambies" have been saying 20mph is too fast for an ebike. The simple fact of the matter is that that is not TOO FAST in some situations. There are a lot of factors that will restrain top speeds in that range - aerodynamics, cadence, and rider common sense so it should be discussed as part of the future of ebikes for urban mobility. We don't want the "mamby-pambies" setting the ebike assist limits because they are not going to ride bikes regardless.

My current ebike will assist to 28mph and the project bike I'm building will likely allow me so sustain speeds around 35mph and I'm not planning on registering it as a motorcycle because I will be pedaling it per the US federal ebike definition. Something that no one seems to really read (states can regulate usage but not what is a legal ebike...that is legal reality but I'm sure their are mambly pamby lawyers that will tell me I'm wrong but I'm not).

 

[tomjasz]

My take on anyone putting 3KW on a Walmart bike is tempting a Darwanistic fate. So long as they don't hurt others I don't think any of use should feel sorry for them.

Sure, stay on a private track. But these Darwinian flashbacks often hurt someone else. In the end, sensible riders pay.

Yup, I rode my Schwinn Paramount at breakneck speeds. That was with a 20-26 y/o body.
There is a sizable difference between pedaling, where 90% of the riders will never see 15MPH, and putting the same population on 20MPH bikes.

Look, I'm all for no eBike regulations, but you just changed the game when you made the ebike as fast and sometimes faster than a gas scooter or MC. NOW you've changed the rulz. I struggle trying to parse how adding pedals to an electric motorscooter or MC makes it a bicycle.

I think your opinion is worth considering in some light. But right for all situations? Nah!

Hugs,

Mamby Pamby

 

[JRA]

The members of Endless Sphere have been making outlaw eBikes for years. In the 10+ years I have followed that forum I have seen some builds that make no sense other than that the member had a death wish, but have never seen any evidence of death as a result. However today the site in general has pretty well calmed down and while there are still those that seek to do ghetto builds with crap bikes and too many watts it seems like fewer are at least successful with their quests. Also there are more posts about lower wattage bikes and their development so it seems like the availability and popularity of the manufacturers eBikes has helped to stem the tide of home built kit jobs because at last they are available for a decent price and reliable in nature.

Not everyone wants to be a bike builder and manufactured eBikes fill that void now better than has ever been available. The fact that they follow certain guidelines set forth by regulations that the major manufacturers feel everyone should abide by is fine but as with all things motorized there will still be a certain element that has the ways and means to go even slightly beyond the regulations yet still maintain a low profile that is based on personal responsibility and a modicum of common sense. This can be in regards to power, speed and functionality and hopefully all the former in congress. To that end kit systems will remain and those that want to go to the outer edge with them will also, as well as ways to de-restrict "legal" eBikes.

 

[Ken M]

Sure, stay on a private track. But these Darwinian flashbacks often hurt someone else. In the end, sensible riders pay.

Yup, I rode my Schwinn Paramount at breakneck speeds. That was with a 20-26 y/o body.
There is a sizable difference between pedaling, where 90% of the riders will never see 15MPH, and putting the same population on 20MPH bikes.

Look, I'm all for no eBike regulations, but you just changed the game when you made the ebike as fast and sometimes faster than a gas scooter or MC. NOW you've changed the rulz. I struggle trying to parse how adding pedals to an electric motorscooter or MC makes it a bicycle.

I think your opinion is worth considering in some light. But right for all situations? Nah!

Hugs,

Mamby Pamby

I have been looking for data that proves that lower safety statistics exist on Class 3 vs Class 1 ebikes. If faster ebikes are significantly less safe then there should be higher accident and injury rates on Class 3 ebikes and my guess is they are pretty much the same because most ebike accidents are not really the bike rider's fault. While I have not hit a pedestrian yet, every close call I've had while riding my bike is because they are not paying attention (it's not a biker's fault if someone walking is wearing head phones and texting and just steps in front of bike rider ... the rider should be able to sue them for being stupid).

I don't want to see fast ebikes or low powered scooters on highways where they will be both a traffic and safety problem when mixed with cars traveling at high speeds. I rode a Honda V65 Magna motorcycle with 100+hp for years and I had to be on alert at all times when riding with cars (I was never in an accident on that motorcycle but had many close calls because drivers simple did not pay attention to motorcycles and they will not pay attention to bikes and scooters if mixed in as well).

I am 100% confident that when riding an ebike on designated street bike lane that say has a posted auto speed limit of 35mph that the closer the bike speed is to that of the cars the safer that rider is. I wouldn't care to engage with anyone in a rational debate that believes that is not the case. A higher differential of speeds would be a far greater safety risk for the biker. So obviously, a faster ebike is actually safer in some situations.

If you've read any of my posts on this subject my position is not really about pushing the speed envelop as much as it is about establishing ebikes as a popular human scale transportation solution here in the US (you almost have to pry people's dead hands off the steering wheel to get them out of 5,000+ lb cars and a 20mph ebike is unlikely to be compelling to many). I'm commuting frequently on an ebike over 40 miles a day and having the faster speed capability saves me time and that time is money. I take safety seriously so I don't think the argument that faster is less safe is always applicable. I'm rarely going to exceed 35mph on any ebike even if the assist could go a bit higher but being able to average say 30mph on a long commute is very compelling urban mobility.

It's not even that Class 1 20mph assist speeds are that bad, but given the power restrictions it's not easy to maintain that speed up even moderate inclines. Some of the newer mid drives (like the TQ and Bafang Ultra) have enough torque to sustain higher speeds up inclines even though the gear ratios at higher speeds have a negative impact on transmitted torque to the rear wheel (one of the reasons why hub drives can be better commuter ebike solutions).

 

[tomjasz]

I have been looking for data that proves that lower safety statistics exist on Class 3 vs Class 1 ebikes.

None exist making our discussion no more than internets blather. Conjecture and opinion. Both of hich we both have a plethora of!

All good. I enjoy sharing opinions and do learn and change...

 

[Mr. Coffee]

I have been looking for data that proves that lower safety statistics exist on Class 3 vs Class 1 ebikes. If faster ebikes are significantly less safe then there should be higher accident and injury rates on Class 3 ebikes and my guess is they are pretty much the same because most ebike accidents are not really the bike rider's fault...

I'm really trying hard to understand your reasoning here.

Class 3 e-bikes, and indeed the whole class system, is a relatively recent invention. It isn't hardly surprising there is little to no data available on accidents since it takes time for governments to decide to track such things and the people reporting accidents would have to remember to note the class of an e-bike. Since many states still do not require the class sticker I'm not even sure how that would work, and I doubt it would work well enough to produce results that you could draw conclusions from.

Right now there is very little data about injury rates with regular bikes versus e-bikes, and what little data there is points towards a higher risk of serious injury. References:

• https://cleantechnica.com/2018/10/31/electric-bicycle-fatalities-injuries-are-rising/
• https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S000145751830174X

The absence of statistics doesn't necessarily mean that there isn't a problem, or couldn't be. Simple physics tells us that higher speeds, even sometimes very modestly higher speeds, might well have a significant impact on injury rates.

Bonus: the second article referenced there specifically mentions in the abstract that higher-speed e-bikes (to 45kph) are correlated with increased risk of injury to the cyclist. Well duh.

 

[Ken M]

I'm really trying hard to understand your reasoning here.

Class 3 e-bikes, and indeed the whole class system, is a relatively recent invention. It isn't hardly surprising there is little to no data available on accidents since it takes time for governments to decide to track such things and the people reporting accidents would have to remember to note the class of an e-bike. Since many states still do not require the class sticker I'm not even sure how that would work, and I doubt it would work well enough to produce results that you could draw conclusions from.

Right now there is very little data about injury rates with regular bikes versus e-bikes, and what little data there is points towards a higher risk of serious injury. References:

• https://cleantechnica.com/2018/10/31/electric-bicycle-fatalities-injuries-are-rising/
• https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S000145751830174X

The absence of statistics doesn't necessarily mean that there isn't a problem, or couldn't be. Simple physics tells us that higher speeds, even sometimes very modestly higher speeds, might well have a significant impact on injury rates.

Bonus: the second article referenced there specifically mentions in the abstract that higher-speed e-bikes (to 45kph) are correlated with increased risk of injury to the cyclist. Well duh.

Yes kinetic energy increases at an exponential rate relative to speed so it is fairly obvious that safety concerns are justified. But if a car, truck, or pedestrian is responsible for the accident that speed capability of the ebike is clearly not at fault and yet I believe they could be ignoring that when they make the claim that fatalities and injuries are rising. The increase in the number of ebikes in use alone will drive up the accident counts but we can not allow legislators to impose irrational limits and regulations (like just adding cost for insurance, registrations, and licenses because they see a revenue opportunity).

I suffered three cervical vertebrae fractures (C6 was unstable) in an ebike accident on a bike path that could easily be attributed to the ebike because I was cruising along at about 22mph when I hit some ice....my rear tire flew out and my head went into a fence post on the side of the part. I believe the same thing could have happened on a traditional bike. The path was fine but there was a freezing light rain just starting and the wood on a bridge coated and I should have known better. I'm still recovering and plan to be back on the ebike in a month. While the speed increased the severity of my injury it was not the cause of the accident (I went from having traction on concrete path to having none on the ice coated wood. This has increased my awareness of being safe but I still believe we need effective human scale urban mobility much more than we need to worry about ebikes assisting faster than 20mph.

 

[Bobiam]

I worry about restricting ebikes that have a top assisted level of 28 mph. It makes sense to restrict bike speed on many paths, say 15 mph. If they do this, then they don't need to restrict ebikes that have a top assisted level of 28 mph.

How true.....Hey! maybe they should outlaw descents where gravity is assisting as would a motor. Joking of course. It’s really all about reasonable speeds and courtesy.

 

[Bobiam]

I have been looking for data that proves that lower safety statistics exist on Class 3 vs Class 1 ebikes. If faster ebikes are significantly less safe then there should be higher accident and injury rates on Class 3 ebikes and my guess is they are pretty much the same because most ebike accidents are not really the bike rider's fault. While I have not hit a pedestrian yet, every close call I've had while riding my bike is because they are not paying attention (it's not a biker's fault if someone walking is wearing head phones and texting and just steps in front of bike rider ... the rider should be able to sue them for being stupid).

I don't want to see fast ebikes or low powered scooters on highways where they will be both a traffic and safety problem when mixed with cars traveling at high speeds. I rode a Honda V65 Magna motorcycle with 100+hp for years and I had to be on alert at all times when riding with cars (I was never in an accident on that motorcycle but had many close calls because drivers simple did not pay attention to motorcycles and they will not pay attention to bikes and scooters if mixed in as well).

I am 100% confident that when riding an ebike on designated street bike lane that say has a posted auto speed limit of 35mph that the closer the bike speed is to that of the cars the safer that rider is. I wouldn't care to engage with anyone in a rational debate that believes that is not the case. A higher differential of speeds would be a far greater safety risk for the biker. So obviously, a faster ebike is actually safer in some situations.

If you've read any of my posts on this subject my position is not really about pushing the speed envelop as much as it is about establishing ebikes as a popular human scale transportation solution here in the US (you almost have to pry people's dead hands off the steering wheel to get them out of 5,000+ lb cars and a 20mph ebike is unlikely to be compelling to many). I'm commuting frequently on an ebike over 40 miles a day and having the faster speed capability saves me time and that time is money. I take safety seriously so I don't think the argument that faster is less safe is always applicable. I'm rarely going to exceed 35mph on any ebike even if the assist could go a bit higher but being able to average say 30mph on a long commute is very compelling urban mobility.

It's not even that Class 1 20mph assist speeds are that bad, but given the power restrictions it's not easy to maintain that speed up even moderate inclines. Some of the newer mid drives (like the TQ and Bafang Ultra) have enough torque to sustain higher speeds up inclines even though the gear ratios at higher speeds have a negative impact on transmitted torque to the rear wheel (one of the reasons why hub drives can be better commuter ebike solutions).

I once touched 50 mph on my bicycle on a significant descent. Yes, that was certainly dumb and having achieved it ( in my youth) I will not attempt to do it again. However, this leads to the reason I was capable of going that speed. I’m not an Olympian. I used gravity. I think we have used gravity from time to time to maintain a speed that is perhaps a little unsafe. Should we repeal the law of gravity? I can understand not having children on expressways with bicycles. But we really can’t worry about the difference between a 20 mph and 28 mph bicycle. There are more important things in life.

 

[Bobiam]

We should all keep in mind that just because an ebike may have assist to higher speeds like 28mph or even a bit higher it doesn't mean that the rider will always be traveling at that top speed. There is no reason to believe that speed limits on the bike lanes/paths/sidewalks would not work any less than they do for cars (some of which can now go over 250mph). We need effective human scale transportation a lot more than we need the mamby-pambies telling everyone that anything over 25kph on an ebike is just too dangerous to allow.

Ok! That’s well said. I am kind of a car freak. I love a car that is capable of high speed and rapid acceleration. So some people ask “where could you go that fast“? The answer to that question is having the capability and to be able to enjoy the exhilaration of a fast car between 30 and 40 miles an hour or between 50 and 60 mph instead of being in a spongy grocery getter. It’s why sports cars were invented.

 

[Off road all day]

Simply try to understand this, oil companies are lobbing to get you off the road! they did it with solar, they will lobby your governor to death to shut you down! they will use the fact states are independent against you, mass confusion. Oil companies want you to give up and put your e-bike in the shed. They will add costs to make e-bikes obsolete with taxes, etc.
I'm wrong, really! invent a car that runs on salt water, see how long that lasts.

 

[Ian Moone]

Ok! That’s well said. I am kind of a car freak. I love a car that is capable of high speed and rapid acceleration. So some people ask “where could you go that fast“? The answer to that question is having the capability and to be able to enjoy the exhilaration of a fast car between 30 and 40 miles an hour or between 50 and 60 mph instead of being in a spongy grocery getter. It’s why sports cars were invented.

Understood, as I LOVE TRUCKS !! But ya know what ?? I love my Ebike More ! Yep, I said it ! There are just more things I'm closer to on a bike, than in any other vehicle ! I can't explain it any other way . ??

 

[ebikemom]

I love my Ebike More !

Me, too! I love my ebike more than any care I've ever had.

 

[TumaloTed]

So, if my first ebike is an Aventon Pace 500 (class 3), are there many bike/rail trails around the country I won't be able to ride on, or just a few? for those that travel with class 3 ebikes, have you ever been stopped on a trail to even have your bike checked for class?? Just wondering.

 

[tomjasz]

So, if my first ebike is an Aventon Pace 500 (class 3), are there many bike/rail trails around the country I won't be able to ride on, or just a few? for those that travel with class 3 ebikes, have you ever been stopped on a trail to even have your bike checked for class?? Just wondering.

Ride like a responsible adult and you’ll have no issues.

 

[Deleted member 4210]

Ride like a responsible adult and you’ll have no issues.

Amen !

 

[Ken M]

@bob armani



No is the short answer to your question. HR 727 is a consumer law legalizing ebikes to be sold as bicycles and not motorized vehicles in the US. For the purpose you want (if necessary?), you would want state and local laws. That's what determines if your ebike is legal and that you're allowed to ride where you are riding.

I believe this is a wrong interpretation. HR727 is a federal regulation that establishes that ebikes compliant with it are the equivalent of a bike. Sure states are free to regulate the usage of ebikes/bikes but in reality they must treat compliant ebikes and bikes the same. If the federal law defines a legal product and states it supersedes states with tighter regulations then they can't allow bikes on a path without allowing ebikes on a path.

I have read only one article with a written opinion by a lawyer that looked into this (few lawyers are willing to express opinions because it limits their potential for litigation profits later so very few lawyers just do the right thing) and his opinion mimics what I just wrote.

 

[J.R.]

I believe this is a wrong interpretation. HR727 is a federal regulation that establishes that ebikes compliant with it are the equivalent of a bike. Sure states are free to regulate the usage of ebikes/bikes but in reality they must treat compliant ebikes and bikes the same. If the federal law defines a legal product and states it supersedes states with tighter regulations then they can't allow bikes on a path without allowing ebikes on a path.

I have read only one article with a written opinion by a lawyer that looked into this (few lawyers are willing to express opinions because it limits their potential for litigation profits later so very few lawyers just do the right thing) and his opinion mimics what I just wrote.

Federal beurocrats (unelected) in the Consumer Product Safety Commission do not supersede state elected officials regulating the use of products the CPSC allows to be sold.

The only reason for HR 727 was to keep them from being regulated by DOT. It has nothing to do with the use of ebikes and where they can be ridden.

 

[Dewey]

The Bicycle Products Suppliers Association/People for Bikes responded to an email sent by 54 outdoor and trail conservancy groups to the National Park Service, Forest Service, and Bureau of Land Management, opposing any change by public land management agencies to legalize e-bikes on non-motorized trails, the email is worded to emphasise their particular concern is with "primitive" trails, back country, and wilderness areas.

The BPSA/PfB response says it supports decision making at a local level to allow trail managers to decide whether to allow ebikes on trails, roads, bicycle lanes, and improved multi-use paths on land owned/operated by the NPS, USFS, and BLM. In my area around Washington, DC, the Park Service operates non-motorized trails on arterial bicycle commuting routes including the C&O, MVT, CCT, and approaches to the Potomac bridges. According to the BRAIN article reporting the issue, the Park Service told BRAIN on Monday it is in the process of developing an e-bike policy but did not say when it will be completed. Hopefully the NPS will recognize one size does not fit all.