Ebiker33
Well-Known Member
I am reposting this from another thread that got no traction, but it came up in another thread again so I am posting it here as well
So far only a few Ebike companies are using this tech like LUNA and I believe Watt Wagon is working on some as well. But their focus is on making an existing product the Bafang motors better, by replacing the weaker nylon gears and the noisy metal gear with a PEEK gear paring with German bearing for a significant upgrade.
LUNA PEEK GEAR
If you deal in polymers and have not come across PEEK – it’s probably because its one of those materials which does not surface unless really needed. When it is needed – there’s little else that can be used in it’s place and this often confuses OEMs; because even among expensive, high-end engineering polymers PEEK sits at a price point that causes the client no small amount of shock.
It is important to talk about the price of PEEK before all it’s other characteristics, as this is usually the first thing the client want to discuss. Invariably, they come knowing that they need this polymer (PEEK), but knowing little else. They expect the price to be similar to Polyacetal or, at the very worst PTFE. When they find out that it is close to 10 times the price of PTFE, it comes as a huge surprise.
Why PEEK is expensive is not fully known. Perhaps it is because it has not yet reached the global scale of manufacture of more commoditized polymers, or perhaps the technology is so unique that it allows resin suppliers to charge a huge premium – knowing that alternatives are not available. As processors, we know only so much:
High tensile strength
In the polymer space, it would be tough to find something tougher than PEEK. It is so strong, in fact, that machining guidelines for PEEK need to follow the same as those for metals.
This strength allows PEEK to be used in applications such as gasketing and auto components – especially where metals cannot be used, but a metal-like durability is required
High temperature resistance
PEEK melts at about 400 Degrees Celsius and is capable of running in environments of 300-325 Degrees without deforming. While PTFE can withstand up to 250 Degrees, any pressure/ load on PTFE at this temperature will invariably cause deformation. In the case of PEEK, its hardness allows it to be in a high-load-high-temperature environment without loss of dimensional properties.
High wear resistance
Again, while both PTFE and UHMWPE can take a significant amount of wear, PEEK exhibits a high PV value and can withstand wear effects even under harsh physical and chemical conditions.
Chemical resistance
While not on the same level as PTFE for pure chemical inertness, PEEK exhibits resistance to many harsh chemicals, allowing it to be used in corrosive environments, under heavy loads
In a nutshell, PEEK’s ability to stay dimensionally stable under harsh environments makes it a highly sought after polymer. OEMs who use PEEK do so knowing well that for the properties offered, PEEK is unique and therefore expensive.
Processing PEEK
We will not delve very deep into the processing of PEEK (as this is a proprietary process unique to each processor), but we will point out the key differences between PEEK and PTFE processing (which has been looked at earlier). It should be noted that here we are referring only to compression moulding, and not injection moulding.
The main difference is that while PTFE is cold compression moulded and then loaded in batches into a sintering oven, PEEK needs to be sintered during compression itself. Furthermore, post sintering, PEEK needs to go through an annealing process, which is time consuming. This leads to a few complications:
Machining PEEK
As discussed above PEEK machines more like a metal than like a polymer. It is hard and has a significant impact on the tool. The same tool that might churn out 3000-4000 PTFE parts may struggle to churn out a few hundred PEEK parts. Again – this adds to the cost of the finished product significantly.
More importantly for machining though is that if the PEEK is not annealed properly, the part will behave erratically during machining as different areas within the material react differently to the stress being placed by the tool. Thus, cracks can develop during machining and the dimensional stability across a batch of components can vary significantly.
As a result, PEEK machining is a difficult process and there are few who are willing to take on the risks of machining such an expensive item, knowing that the rate of rejection could be very high.
In conclusion – PEEK has remained a largely niche polymer mainly due to its prohibitively high price. If it were cheaper – say around the price of PTFE – there are chances that it could steal a significant chunk of the PTFE market. PTFE still rates much higher than PEEK on characteristics like coefficient of friction and dielectric strength, but where it is a question of sheer strength, PEEK stands unmatched amongst polymers.
Here is one happy customer comments from the Luna site
Just purchased the silent gear for a bbshd motor, My bike is 2 yrs old and mainly use it for hunting and have a deer cart and haul deer with the bike. I tore the motor apart think maybe some wear of the old plastic gear but there was none, I replaced the gear with the new peek plastic gear since I believed it would still be an upgrade to the bike. While everything was apart I cleaned up everything and filled every movable gear with mobil 28 grease and put things back together. I took the bike for a test ride this morning up some hills and was super impressed on how much more quiet the motor was. Once again LUNA you hit a home run with this gear. Next I would like for you guys to produce a peek plastic gear for the ultra 620 motor to quiet that beast down.
I agree as I listen to the Ultra in video's it needs the noise reduction, it's not the loudest motor but you hear enough of it.
Also of note adding grease and swapping from NYLON to PEEK even caused a noise reduction.
I personally believe a Watt Wagon motor with X1 controller and a PEEK gear would be hands down the best motor on the market.
Only thing is I think Pushkar might have to limit the peak watts to what has been tested which is about 1600W peak the BBSHD has the the same 160nm and wattage and it's holding up.
So far only a few Ebike companies are using this tech like LUNA and I believe Watt Wagon is working on some as well. But their focus is on making an existing product the Bafang motors better, by replacing the weaker nylon gears and the noisy metal gear with a PEEK gear paring with German bearing for a significant upgrade.
LUNA PEEK GEAR
If you deal in polymers and have not come across PEEK – it’s probably because its one of those materials which does not surface unless really needed. When it is needed – there’s little else that can be used in it’s place and this often confuses OEMs; because even among expensive, high-end engineering polymers PEEK sits at a price point that causes the client no small amount of shock.
It is important to talk about the price of PEEK before all it’s other characteristics, as this is usually the first thing the client want to discuss. Invariably, they come knowing that they need this polymer (PEEK), but knowing little else. They expect the price to be similar to Polyacetal or, at the very worst PTFE. When they find out that it is close to 10 times the price of PTFE, it comes as a huge surprise.
Why PEEK is expensive is not fully known. Perhaps it is because it has not yet reached the global scale of manufacture of more commoditized polymers, or perhaps the technology is so unique that it allows resin suppliers to charge a huge premium – knowing that alternatives are not available. As processors, we know only so much:
- The resin is 5-8 times more expensive than PTFE
- Processing PEEK is time consuming and expensive in comparison to PTFE
- Machining PEEK is tricky in comparison to other polymers
High tensile strength
In the polymer space, it would be tough to find something tougher than PEEK. It is so strong, in fact, that machining guidelines for PEEK need to follow the same as those for metals.
This strength allows PEEK to be used in applications such as gasketing and auto components – especially where metals cannot be used, but a metal-like durability is required
High temperature resistance
PEEK melts at about 400 Degrees Celsius and is capable of running in environments of 300-325 Degrees without deforming. While PTFE can withstand up to 250 Degrees, any pressure/ load on PTFE at this temperature will invariably cause deformation. In the case of PEEK, its hardness allows it to be in a high-load-high-temperature environment without loss of dimensional properties.
High wear resistance
Again, while both PTFE and UHMWPE can take a significant amount of wear, PEEK exhibits a high PV value and can withstand wear effects even under harsh physical and chemical conditions.
Chemical resistance
While not on the same level as PTFE for pure chemical inertness, PEEK exhibits resistance to many harsh chemicals, allowing it to be used in corrosive environments, under heavy loads
In a nutshell, PEEK’s ability to stay dimensionally stable under harsh environments makes it a highly sought after polymer. OEMs who use PEEK do so knowing well that for the properties offered, PEEK is unique and therefore expensive.
Processing PEEK
We will not delve very deep into the processing of PEEK (as this is a proprietary process unique to each processor), but we will point out the key differences between PEEK and PTFE processing (which has been looked at earlier). It should be noted that here we are referring only to compression moulding, and not injection moulding.
The main difference is that while PTFE is cold compression moulded and then loaded in batches into a sintering oven, PEEK needs to be sintered during compression itself. Furthermore, post sintering, PEEK needs to go through an annealing process, which is time consuming. This leads to a few complications:
- Batch processing is difficult. Since the total heating cycle for a single piece can take up to 8 hours, and since heaters are expensive, PEEK is normally moulded a few pieces at a time. So unlike PTFE, where a batch of 8-10 large pieces can be moulded in series and then put in the oven for a single cycle, PEEK will offer only a few pieces in the same amount of time
- Since PEEK is heated under pressure, issues of flash can arise as the resin becomes molten, but has pressure being applied on it. Furthermore, the pressure and temperature have to be balanced very carefully, since the temperature makes the PEEK molten, allowing it to reach its desired shape, but the pressure is responsible for vacating air bubbles from the material, so that there is no porosity.
- Batch processing the PEEK parts for annealing is possible, but takes about 24 hours
Machining PEEK
As discussed above PEEK machines more like a metal than like a polymer. It is hard and has a significant impact on the tool. The same tool that might churn out 3000-4000 PTFE parts may struggle to churn out a few hundred PEEK parts. Again – this adds to the cost of the finished product significantly.
More importantly for machining though is that if the PEEK is not annealed properly, the part will behave erratically during machining as different areas within the material react differently to the stress being placed by the tool. Thus, cracks can develop during machining and the dimensional stability across a batch of components can vary significantly.
As a result, PEEK machining is a difficult process and there are few who are willing to take on the risks of machining such an expensive item, knowing that the rate of rejection could be very high.
In conclusion – PEEK has remained a largely niche polymer mainly due to its prohibitively high price. If it were cheaper – say around the price of PTFE – there are chances that it could steal a significant chunk of the PTFE market. PTFE still rates much higher than PEEK on characteristics like coefficient of friction and dielectric strength, but where it is a question of sheer strength, PEEK stands unmatched amongst polymers.
Here is one happy customer comments from the Luna site
Just purchased the silent gear for a bbshd motor, My bike is 2 yrs old and mainly use it for hunting and have a deer cart and haul deer with the bike. I tore the motor apart think maybe some wear of the old plastic gear but there was none, I replaced the gear with the new peek plastic gear since I believed it would still be an upgrade to the bike. While everything was apart I cleaned up everything and filled every movable gear with mobil 28 grease and put things back together. I took the bike for a test ride this morning up some hills and was super impressed on how much more quiet the motor was. Once again LUNA you hit a home run with this gear. Next I would like for you guys to produce a peek plastic gear for the ultra 620 motor to quiet that beast down.
I agree as I listen to the Ultra in video's it needs the noise reduction, it's not the loudest motor but you hear enough of it.
Also of note adding grease and swapping from NYLON to PEEK even caused a noise reduction.
I personally believe a Watt Wagon motor with X1 controller and a PEEK gear would be hands down the best motor on the market.
Only thing is I think Pushkar might have to limit the peak watts to what has been tested which is about 1600W peak the BBSHD has the the same 160nm and wattage and it's holding up.
