Ordering online: Hoping the Retül size tool is accurate

[mschwett]

Any way you look at it- they have to decide if they are selling direct or thru dealers. Seems they’ve chosen direct. Any dealer that stays with this mfg- deserves whatever they get. Global issue or nodealer nearby
customer should encourage mfg. to pass leads on to their dealers- not swipe the sale from dealer.
‘unless I’m missing something(I usually am), s-ecialized is overtly screwing their own dealers- bad.

no, actually they don’t have to decide. there are many, many, many examples of companies which do both, in fact all three. apple website. apple branded store. best buy. target. it’s called choice. levi’s website. macy’s website. levi’s store. department store.

these seem to be a better model than the auto model, in which you’re somewhat at the mercy of the independent ownership of whatever happens to be the nearest dealer, because they have exclusive territories. or, an exclusively direct model like canyon or so many eBike companies where you have to take the bike to an LBS which made $0.00 on the sale for maintenance and repair.

if you care about your LBS and value their service, you can buy a bike through them, and likely wait if it’s in short supply. you can ALSO do a click-n-collect order (or whatever they’re calling it now) and the LBS gets a big chunk of their usual commission without ever having to risk capital on the inventory, take up floor space, advertise, etc. i’d been trying to find a particular aethos (a specialized road bike) for quite a while and my LBS was very straightforward - i could keep my order with them and get it this spring or summer, or jump on one if it showed up on the website and they’d be MORE THAN HAPPY to assemble, fit, and service it. they get half the commission for a third of the work.

they’re not upset about this aspect of the model in the slightest.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

they get half the commission for a third of the work.

They get the quarter of the commision if you collect the bike in the store but the half if they deliver the bike at your door.

 

[mschwett]

They get the quarter of the commision if you collect the bike in the store but the half if they deliver the bike at your door.

no, at least not in the US.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

OK. The LBS gets as much as 75% for the door delivery!

 

[mschwett]

OK. The LBS gets as much as 75% for the door delivery!

yes, without ever having to purchase the inventory, take up space on their showroom floor, employ salespeople to talk about it, etc.

 

[Nubnub]

View attachment 116138
Or even taller when you look at the data for Vado SL 4.0 at the Polish website.

There is decidedly something in what you're saying, Nub. According to geometry given by Spec, I should never be able to straddle Vado SL even in the size S but I could safely ride the size L! Necessary to mention, I was even not considering a purchase of a diamond-frame Vado SL based on the geometry data until I actually tried those e-bikes! Moreover, the Stand-Over Height data for Creo SL listed in the Polish website were wrong and different from the U.S. site!

Back to the @veloowl questions: the Step-Through frame is easy to mount and dismount, and I'd personally recommend a larger frame if someone is on the verge of two possible frame sizes.

Nub, Tero or Vado: Are you not personally baffled by Teo being Class 1? Just a question (I would be happy if we had Class 1 in Europe!)

I guess whoever did the Polish website/translation was working with a different set of specs. Wouldn't be surprising considering how even the US website sometimes has inconsistencies in the tech data/specs. I remember you saying if you were to get a Tero it would be size S. Was this based on actually trying on a medium or was it based on the web specs? And if you fit a medium then you'd also fit the large standover since they are the same. Both the Vado and Tero are same standover for M/L. The SL is different. Is it simply because the head angle is different between M/L on the SL but the same on the Vado/Tero. It would seem the longer top tube could also impact this. But I suppose with a sloping top tube it may not matter depending on where the standover height is measured. Also since Vado and Tero use the same frame, is the difference in standover height only due to 650B vs 29 tire size?

The Tero being class 1 makes sense to me at least in the US. Many multi use trails are designated Class 1 only. Off road trails if they allow ebikes at all are commonly also designated Class 1. If the Tero is touted as a do all bike, it needs legal access to those types of trails.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

I remember you saying if you were to get a Tero it would be size S. Was this based on actually trying on a medium or was it based on the web specs?

It was based on the web specs, which were totally wrong. I demo rode a Tero size M later, and was totally happy with it.

The Tero being class 1 makes sense to me at least in the US. Many multi use trails are designated Class 1 only. Off road trails if they allow ebikes at all are commonly also designated Class 1. If the Tero is touted as a do all bike, it needs legal access to those types of trails.

Understandable!

 

[Nubnub]

no, actually they don’t have to decide. there are many, many, many examples of companies which do both, in fact all three. apple website. apple branded store. best buy. target. it’s called choice. levi’s website. macy’s website. levi’s store. department store.

these seem to be a better model than the auto model, in which you’re somewhat at the mercy of the independent ownership of whatever happens to be the nearest dealer, because they have exclusive territories. or, an exclusively direct model like canyon or so many eBike companies where you have to take the bike to an LBS which made $0.00 on the sale for maintenance and repair.

if you care about your LBS and value their service, you can buy a bike through them, and likely wait if it’s in short supply. you can ALSO do a click-n-collect order (or whatever they’re calling it now) and the LBS gets a big chunk of their usual commission without ever having to risk capital on the inventory, take up floor space, advertise, etc. i’d been trying to find a particular aethos (a specialized road bike) for quite a while and my LBS was very straightforward - i could keep my order with them and get it this spring or summer, or jump on one if it showed up on the website and they’d be MORE THAN HAPPY to assemble, fit, and service it. they get half the commission for a third of the work.

they’re not upset about this aspect of the model in the slightest.

The major difference between Specialized and the other companies you mention is that (exception Apple), Specialized is the sole supplier and their products for the last couple years anyways have been severely supply constrained. Another way of looking at is from Specialized standpoint is they get part of what was previously the dealer's commission by funneling sales thru their website. I've had a bike on notify me at my LBS for over a year and meantime I can see the exact same model/size/color occasionally show up on the website for online order. They are usually gone in a day or two. My LBS has sold a few bikes delivered via the website but clearly they are not happy about the cut in their commissions. Normally a bike sold thru them gets free lifetime adjustments/minor tunes. Don't get that with a bike sold thru the website.

The auto model is actually better. You really aren't at the mercy of the nearest local dealer and they know it. There are third party companies and websites that can locate exactly what your looking for and the price you can expect to pay. If you are remote they can ship it to you for fee. If you need warranty or service work done, any local dealer for that brand is happy to work on it since service is a big part of any dealers bottom line.

 

[mschwett]

The major difference between Specialized and the other companies you mention is that (exception Apple), Specialized is the sole supplier and their products for the last couple years anyways have been severely supply constrained. Another way of looking at is from Specialized standpoint is they get part of what was previously the dealer's commission by funneling sales thru their website. I've had a bike on notify me at my LBS for over a year and meantime I can see the exact same model/size/color occasionally show up on the website for online order. They are usually gone in a day or two. My LBS has sold a few bikes delivered via the website but clearly they are not happy about the cut in their commissions. Normally a bike sold thru them gets free lifetime adjustments/minor tunes. Don't get that with a bike sold thru the website.

The auto model is actually better. You really aren't at the mercy of the nearest local dealer and they know it. There are third party companies and websites that can locate exactly what your looking for and the price you can expect to pay. If you are remote they can ship it to you for fee. If you need warranty or service work done, any local dealer for that brand is happy to work on it since service is a big part of any dealers bottom line.

well, i certainly beg to differ about the auto model. it took third party companies hacking the system to make it even remotely palatable in the modern world. there are a bunch of arcane laws in the united states which keep it the way it is.

i mentioned levi’s and apple, who are both the only suppliers of their products. tons and tons of companies use this model. i can buy legos at a lego store, through the lego website, or at target.

the arbitrary parceling out of bikes (which have so many options and configurations) to a somewhat limited number of unevenly distributed dealers who are forbidden or loathe to transfer inventory is a terrible system for everyone except the LBS.

 

[kahn]

I think the seller still does something to sell the bike because Spec will not sell as many bikes online in areas where no dealers exist since most folks realize eventually they will need service.

And what's a 'Tier 1' Spec LBS? What are the criteria?

I realize that there are folks that can't get to a local shop but I would never buy a bike without being able to test it. Both size, weight and for e-bikes, power. Not unless there was an ABSOLUTE guarantee that the bike could be returned even after use at no cost to me. If they drop it at my door, they also pick it up at my door.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

If they drop it at my door, they also pick it up at my door.

Don't worry: Ship to Home option does not work for e-bikes.

 

[kahn]

Don't worry: Ship to Home option does not work for e-bikes.

That will probably change, too. But shipping those batteries.... Especially, the internal batteries is problematic.

 

[fatshark]

Any way you look at it- they have to decide if they are selling direct or thru dealers. Seems they’ve chosen direct. Any dealer that stays with this mfg- deserves whatever they get. Global issue or nodealer nearby
customer should encourage mfg. to pass leads on to their dealers- not swipe the sale from dealer.
‘unless I’m missing something(I usually am), s-ecialized is overtly screwing their own dealers- bad.

There's another issue I experienced. I visited a LBS (well, not so local) that is a Specialized dealer. I could order my bike there BUT I was committed to buying it, even if it didn't fit. I'm XL and they would not routinely carry XL bikes, just M and L. I ordered by mail direct from Specialized. That way I'm covered by our distance selling regulations which would allow me to return it (unused, obviously). Of course ... the bike was the correct size .

 

[Stefan Mikes]

There's another issue I experienced. I visited a LBS (well, not so local) that is a Specialized dealer. I could order my bike there BUT I was committed to buying it, even if it didn't fit. .

Was it a bike or an e-bike? (I'm asking regarding the Specialized Delivery.

My Tier 1 Specialized Dealer takes a pre-order but doesn't require a deposit. Moreover, you don't need to buy it. They will sell it anyway. They could even sell their Vado SL 4.0 demo e-bike!

 

[fxr3]

no, actually they don’t have to decide. there are many, many, many examples of companies which do both, in fact all three. apple website. apple branded store. best buy. target. it’s called choice. levi’s website. macy’s website. levi’s store. department store.

these seem to be a better model than the auto model, in which you’re somewhat at the mercy of the independent ownership of whatever happens to be the nearest dealer, because they have exclusive territories. or, an exclusively direct model like canyon or so many eBike companies where you have to take the bike to an LBS which made $0.00 on the sale for maintenance and repair.

if you care about your LBS and value their service, you can buy a bike through them, and likely wait if it’s in short supply. you can ALSO do a click-n-collect order (or whatever they’re calling it now) and the LBS gets a big chunk of their usual commission without ever having to risk capital on the inventory, take up floor space, advertise, etc. i’d been trying to find a particular aethos (a specialized road bike) for quite a while and my LBS was very straightforward - i could keep my order with them and get it this spring or summer, or jump on one if it showed up on the website and they’d be MORE THAN HAPPY to assemble, fit, and service it. they get half the commission for a third of the work.

they’re not upset about this aspect of the model in the slightest.

See, I was missing something. If dealer is getting 50+% of difference, that works.

 

[rochrunner]

A couple comments on fit specs in general. First off, when people talk about their "inseam" measurement, that's generally a clothing measurement from crotch to the bottom of your pants cuff -- not all the way to the ground (unless you wear your pants that way!). So as @Stefan Mikes says, "standover height" is a bike-related measurement and more accurate for sizing. Also, what does the "standover height" spec of a bike frame really mean when you have a sloping top tube as almost all bikes do these days? The height differs depending on how far forward of the saddle you're standing.

 

[mschwett]

A couple comments on fit specs in general. First off, when people talk about their "inseam" measurement, that's generally a clothing measurement from crotch to the bottom of your pants cuff -- not all the way to the ground (unless you wear your pants that way!). So as @Stefan Mikes says, "standover height" is a bike-related measurement and more accurate for sizing. Also, what does the "standover height" spec of a bike frame really mean when you have a sloping top tube as almost all bikes do these days? The height differs depending on how far forward of the saddle you're standing.

good points.

in the end, all that matters for fit once you’re riding are the relative positions of your feet (pedals/crank), butt (saddle) and hands (handle bars.) different positions of the wheels relative to those three points will of course affect the handling of the bike, but the comfort, not so much.

the value of stand-over is in making the bike easier to get on and off, which as you noted, compact frame geometry (sloping top tube) had greatly alleviated. top tube length and seat tube angle tend to be the more critical and unchangeable dimensions in bike fit, as they affect the relationship of those three points very directly.

 

[kahn]

good points.

in the end, all that matters for fit once you’re riding are the relative positions of your feet (pedals/crank), butt (saddle) and hands (handle bars.) different positions of the wheels relative to those three points will of course affect the handling of the bike, but the comfort, not so much.

the value of stand-over is in making the bike easier to get on and off, which as you noted, compact frame geometry (sloping top tube) had greatly alleviated. top tube length and seat tube angle tend to be the more critical and unchangeable dimensions in bike fit, as they affect the relationship of those three points very directly.

Although stand-over height of the top tube is still some critical to stopping safely and comfortably, I am one of those "swing leg over rear and saddle" which makes the top tube a non-issue in that regard. And, yes, I've tried other mounting methods - can't seem to teach this old dog new mount methods.

 

[fatshark]

Was it a bike or an e-bike? (I'm asking regarding the Specialized Delivery.

My Tier 1 Specialized Dealer takes a pre-order but doesn't require a deposit. Moreover, you don't need to buy it. They will sell it anyway. They could even sell their Vado SL 4.0 demo e-bike!

Sorry @Stefan Mikes, only just seen this ... it was my "Yellow Peril" Vado SL 5.0 EQ. I'd gone into the LBS to ask about Creo and Vado SL availability. They didn't have any Vado's and only size M Creo's. I'd need XL in both - according to Retul - and they claimed they couldn't order either for me without my commitment to purchase.

I'm not sure in the UK if we have this Tier 1 setup, but there are about 9 Specialized Concept Stores that sell direct by mail, or have showrooms. I guess that's the same thing. The nearest one to me is a 14 hour return trip, so mail order was the only option.

Ordering by mail could not have been easier and the bike arrived promptly, already checked over and part assembled. I just needed to fix the 'bars and front wheel and 'fender', attach some pedals and ride it. Seemingly they cannot post the range extender and you have to collect that in person.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

I'm not sure in the UK if we have this Tier 1 setup, but there are about 9 Specialized Concept Stores that sell direct by mail, or have showrooms. I guess that's the same thing. The nearest one to me is a 14 hour return trip, so mail order was the only option.

The structure and naming of Specialized stores may vary from country to country. Britain has Concept Stores, Germany Elite Shops, and the features of the Brand Store in Warsaw are listed as: