Nuvinci sourcing and installing in the Bay Area?

[scrambler]

Hi, new here, but long time lurker

I am looking into an E-bike for my wife that would ideally have the following characteristics

• Integrated Torque / speed / cadence sensor for best of breed PAS
• IGH, Ideally a NuVinci CVT, ideally with Harmony
• Gates carbon drive belt system
• Mid drive with as much power as possible for the steep hills of the SF Bay Area... The Bosch 350W would be a minimum, the new Bafang Max looks interesting with more torque, and the Bafang Max Ultra sounds exciting with 1000W...
• Front suspension, plus suspension seat post for light trail riding.

I have a few on my radar (see below), none of which of course fit the complete bill, so I am looking at what it would take to customize one of the almost perfect ones to fit the bill.
One of these customization, would be to replace the rear derailleur and cassette by a NuVinci.

Hence my Question / post title.
Does anyone know of a bike shop in the San Francisco Bay Area that can source and install the NuVinci system on an electric bike?

Thank you for any insights.

PS: For those sharing the same specs interest, here is my current shortlist.
EVELO new Galaxy model (closest to spec at lowest price): Would need to add a suspension fork and seat posts.
FLX Blade (more exciting motor): Would need to Add the new NuVinci 380x, and a Belt drive system
RIESE &MUELLER Nevo (expensive, no throttle ): Would need to add the harmony controller
Other expensive contenders:
FELT versa E10; Cube SUV Hybrid pro 500; BULL Lacuba Evo E8 Wave

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

Does anyone know of a bike shop in the San Francisco Bay Area that can source and install the NuVinci system on an electric bike?

http://newwheel.net/

They are good folks and will work with you find the right combination.

You should add this to your list as well: https://emotionbikesusa.com/atom-diamond-wave/

Actually, based on what you mentioned. This is the bike which has all the things you mentioned: http://tempobicycles.com/santabarbara/

 

[scrambler]

Thank you for the quick answer, I will contact the newwheel to see what they could do and at what price.

I actually have the Tempo on a secondary list, but they only offer the 250W Bosch on that bike, and the fork is not a real suspension fork.
So for cheaper, the Evelo Galaxy looks like a better fit with a more powerful motor.
But other than that it is a great contender too.
The Atom also has a 250W motor and an IGH versus the Harmony, so also on the secondary list

Thanks again for your input

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

Thank you for the quick answer, I will contact the newwheel to see what they could do and at what price.

I actually have the Tempo on a secondary list, but they only offer the 250W Bosch on that bike, and the fork is not a real suspension fork.
So for cheaper, the Evelo Galaxy looks like a better fit with a more powerful motor.
But other than that it is a great contender too.
The Atom also has a 250W motor and an IGH versus the Harmony, so also on the secondary list

Thanks again for your input

Most of the Bosch motors are 250W anyway. Even the speed motors. The US version is spec'd 350W but the hardware is absolutely same.
Going by Watts is the sure fire of completely misjudging a bike's capability. I suggest you visit a bike shop and ride it actually.
Harmony has some glitches and that is why manufacturers are not using them extensively.

EVELO Galaxy won't ship until late October and there is no guarantee of the reliability of the system.

Just like the ATOM Wave, most of the Specialized Levo bikes use the Brose system but most motors whether it is Bosch or Brose or Yamah put out significantly more.

You can't just take the FLX blade and add a NuVinci to it. The chainline won't work and the Bafang system will rip the Gates carbon drive in no time.
You can get the exact same BLADE model for $2000 here but I suggest you to stay away from products like that because down the line, you will end up struggling to find parts.

 

[scrambler]

Regarding the Blade and the Carbon Gates, although they say it is supposed to have the same strength specs as the chains they replace... I have not actually been able to find a max power / max torque for it, they seem to be avoiding the subject...
That said, I would give up the belt if I could get the Bafang ultra.

I agree that the chainline may also be an issue on the FLX blade, although I have not found the chainline spec for the new 380x nuvinci.
I also agree that FLX is still an unknown entity as far as longevity and reliability is concerned, but all the E-bikes parts are standard, and not very complex to maintain.
So at this point the Blade / NuVinci scenario is more wishfull thinking around the perspective of getting better motor power than anything else
Good find on the alibaba FLX blade/attack clone by the way , and definitely, if FLX is already an unknow entity, Alibaba is one big extra step in that direction

I am aware the Bosch is one system with different limitations, but I have tried the 250W, and on steep hills, I find it is less than adequate. I also want to be able to pedal the bike fast at the 28mph limit, and this is why I am kind of setting the bar at the 350W version minimum.
But I may be overthinking that one, and in the end it may come down to compromise...

Agree on unknown reliability of the New Evelo bikes (mostly the new Bafand Max drive), that said, Bafang in general has a long track record now, and Evelo offers 4 years warranty, which buys some peace of mind

Interesting to hear about the Harmony Glitches. I have ridden several bikes with the NuVinci, but have not actually tried the Harmony. I do like the idea of simplicity of operation for my wife.
The Harmony does have the ability to be used in the regular manual mode of the NuVinci, so there is always that fallback.
Testing a harmony equipped bike is on my agenda next.

I am hoping more people will want the simplicity of use and maintenance of the configuration I am after, and that more manufacturer will offer it.

Thanks again for all the input, I am taking things slow, every perspective is valuable.

 

[fredi]

...
Harmony has some glitches and that is why manufacturers are not using them extensively.

EVELO Galaxy won't ship until late October and there is no guarantee of the reliability of the system...

The Galaxy TT is available and I am loving mine! It came with a 4 year warranty and their support has been great so far. What kind of "glitches" should I be watching for with my Harmony?

 

[scrambler]

Glad to hear you like the bike fredi,
I am not sure what glitches Ravi was speaking of, but I did read some thread where people had some problems with the harmony getting stuck. But I really have not seen anything suggesting it is a wide spread issue. As you said, you have a 4 year warranty with Evelo, so I would not sweat it

I would love to hear more from you about the bike on things like below:

• Have you tried the harmony in automatic / cadence mode, and in manual mode where you shift manually, and how do you feel about the usefulness of the automatic / cadence mode?
• Do you live in an area with steep hills, and if so, how is the power on these. How fast can you go up the hill in max assist mode?
• Any real life range when using the max power assist mode?

I appreciate any feedback you can give us on the bike.

 

[fredi]

The Galaxy TT motor uses a torque sensor (internal to the motor) and speed to determine how much power is drawn from the battery. This allows for quick engagement and better sensitivity. The torque sensor uses a strain gauge inside the motor to measure pressure on the pedals.

When I’m riding it feels like the Harmony uses the torque sensor more when the NuVinci is in manual and uses the speed sensor in automatic, but the drive and shifting systems aren't integrated to the point that the motor changes its behavior intentionally. It's probably more likely that as I pedal harder, my crank speed increases. The automatic shifting works is to maintain crank speed and as my crank speed increases, the Harmony will shift, which affects the amount of torque I am putting on the pedals.

We have hills but not really steep hills. I found that she can easily climb our hills at 8-12 mph that would normally bring me to a crawl. On level roads I can quickly reach the 20 mph limit.

I did take her to dealer today for a full checkup. They did a minor adjustment to the brakes and gave her a clean bill of health, no charge. They were impressed at how well “I” put the bike together (LOL) and they loved the belt and throttle. I’ll be sure make the checkup an annual event and to return to that dealer.

I’ve only had the bike for two weeks, well over twenty miles but mostly in PAS 1. The battery gauge still shows full (5 bars) but I’m headed out for a little camping this weekend and some serious riding so I should know more next week when I get back.

 

[scrambler]

Thanks for the feedback, keep us posted as you gain more experience with the bike

 

[Sonoboy]

Jayvee, I am under the impression that the full stroke movement required on the twist grip is 3/4 of a turn, or 270 degrees. Could you have a damaged unit?

 

[fredi]

I just checked, my Harmony is only a half of a turn in manual or automatic.

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

What kind of "glitches" should I be watching for with my Harmony?

Incorrect cadence matching is what irked me when I test rode some bikes with Nuvinci Harmony and occasionally, the machine would not react because of its own inertia.

I fully agree with @JayVee .

Bosch drives are fairly difficult to get going from a standstill and the N380 makes it equally difficult to gain speed and momentum rapidly.

The speed drives don't have initial torque needed to get off the blocks quickly and adding the extra mechanical lag of 380 makes for a slightly sluggish feel. Where I live (Chicago), winters are harsh and the salt on roads can be hard on the drivetrain and I seriously thought about belt drive and IGH but I just love the simplicity and efficiency of derailleurs. So, I will stick to that for sometime.

 

[scrambler]

Ok, so I've done some experiments and I think I'm starting to get it. This is exactly like a traditional cassette and derailleur, meaning that you can't shift under load. If you 'let up' and stop pedalling, the handle swivels easily. The course is still a bit long (around 2.5 twists), but it's much more manageable.

Thanks for your feedback on this @JayVee. If you don't mind, I would love to hear more after you have had a chance to reevaluate in light of the above.

I agree that NuVinci advertises you can shift under load, but the reality is that this is true up to a certain point.
I also have seen Nuvinci equipped bikes that were very hard to shift under load, but that turned out to be a bad adjustment of the controller cables.

So do make sure the Cable adjustment is perfect.

All that said, I have been wondering if in the long run, the benefit of CVT are being outweigh by the simplicity of a push button gear shifter. I can see benefits for both, so I am very interested in a long term usage perspective like yours.

The Harmony system of course does change the dynamic around that issue, as it is supposed to do the shifting for you using the battery power, and all you do is adjust the cadence setting, which (should) requires no effort as it is done electronically.
Regarding the harmony, and this is a Question for Fredi, my understanding is that on the Harmony, even in manual mode, the shifting is electronically controlled, so even in manual mode, shifting should be a lot easier than with the manual Xfinity controller (what you use when you do not have a Harmony).

@fredi, can you comment on how easy it is to change the gear ratio on the Harmony in manual mode, including how well it works under load (moderate to high).
Also can you tell us what is the twisting range on the harmony in manual mode to go from lowest ration to highest, as given it is electronic, that range may be reduced.


So many choices, so little time

 

[fredi]

The Harmony in manual (and automatic) only requires a half a turn. Shifting is easy, sometimes I think to easy, the load doesn't seem to mater.

 

[scrambler]

Thanks @fredi,
Half a turn to go from lowest to highest is great news, as well as no difference under load ...
Even if one does not need or want the automatic cadence mode, the Harmony may be worth it just to make the manual shifting easier and effortless!

 

[fredi]

I typically keep the Harmony in automatic, on the lowest setting (one bar), and use the PAS to change my speed/torque

 

[Sonoboy]

@scrambler - I doubt I'll be able to get any different adjustments done as this is a loaner bike. My Trekking Sduro was in for a revision and it turns out part of the rear axle is broken. So they've lent me this bike and I suspect I'll only have it for a couple of days. It's absolutely brand new and I have the impression that this is the 'factory setting' for the Nuvinci. I'll be sure to ask the mechanic if the sensitivity/travel length of the twist mechanism could be adjusted to be more reactive when I take it back.

I went for a ride and a thought occurred to me: the max assist speed of the drive system might have an influence on the Nuvinci. I've observed that if I want to reach 25km/h (the standard EU Pedelec speed), I have no problems. All I need to do is twist the lever once under load and I will reach that speed. And twisting the lever for the 'first twist' offers fairly little resistance. But I have a 45km/h bike and I'm attempting to reach a higher speed, which is why I have to 'twist further'. So I'm now wondering if this particular transmission system is really optimal for a Speed Pedelec. Or if the more advanced electronic versions are better suited to that.

From what fredi says, the Harmony sounds much more sophisticated than what I have. And my blistered fingers agree.

Since the loaner bike is new, the LBS might not be aware of the problem, and that it may just be incorrectly adjusted from the factory. Also, I recall reading somewhere that the Nuvinci needs to 'wear in' for a number of miles, so these two things may explain your problems with this particular bike. I will be receiving my own bike with this system in the next couple of weeks, so I may post of my own experience at that time.

 

[scrambler]

I will be receiving my own bike with this system in the next couple of weeks, so I may post of my own experience at that time.

Please do

 

[fredi]

I think I found the dreaded "Steep Hill". Most hills have not been a problem but this one is interesting and I've ridden it twice just to make sure it wasn't me. I'm in riding along in PAS 5 with the Harmony in automatic on the lowest setting cruising in the high teens and having fun when I hit this hill, my speed dropped to about 8 mph and my cadence slowed dramatically. Typically at this point I bring the Harmony up to around half, which restores my cadence and maintains my speed. But that wasn't gonna do it, so I went full blue (max bars). So now I'm working it and maintaining my 8 mph but half way up the hill it breaks loose and my cadence increases dramatically. I back down the Harmony to halfway and continue up the hill at a comfortable pace. I don't know what it means it was just a lot different then anything I have experienced so far.

 

[scrambler]

Now that you are able to shift more easily by easing up on the pedals, do you see some benefit to the Continuous gear ratio shift versus the stepping up and down if an IGH, or overall, you find the stepping up and down of the IGH easier?

Also, imagining a harmony controller, where it is electronic so no effort twisting it, and shorter twisting range, Would you then see more benefit to the CVT versus the IGH?