Now I get why people change the cassette

[retiredNH]

AHicks, How is the ultra pickier? What brand? Are you comparing with throttle use or without? Just curious....

 

[AHicks]

Fair question! The brand of bike isn't important (it's a Rize) I don't think. This is about the motor and drive type. And let's assume for a second you aren't a super experienced super human rider. I'm NOT going to make this about the rider, or what's possible.

Being in the right gear is FAR more important on a mid drive than a hub. For example, consider the consequences of a quick stop with no time to downshift. A geared hub can use it's throttle to accelerate away, or at the very least power the bike far enough to get the bike in the right gear where you can provide some assistance, VERY EASILY.

Same scenario on a mid drive, especially a lower powered (under 500w) mid drive? Even the throttle equipped Ultra can be in trouble here when stopped in it's upper gear range. It's MUCH easier to stall a mid drive (that's in the wrong gear) on an unanticipated hill. That's pickier the way I see it.

Even at cruise speeds keeping an eye on what gear you are in, allowing you to anticipate that next shift, on a mid drive is more important than what you can get away with on a hub drive. To do a good job on a mid drive those shifts need to be anticipated sooner. That makes the mid drive pickier.

So I guess my thought is when saying pickier, I'm comparing what you can easily get away with on a hub drive vs. what you SHOULD be doing when riding a mid drive.

 

[tomjasz]

I definitely could see that being an issue. Overstressing drivetrain components is one of the MANY reasons I didn't go mid-drive.

Though it shouldn't be an issue so long as the ratios are within tolerances, the 58's do get a bit spindly. I can't see that being a problem if you've got just manpower going through it, but running motor power through things sets off my "This is just going to break" alarm at any "useful" gearing for me as a rider.

Of course you don’t see a problem, you don sell, support, or warranty systems..

 

[retiredNH]

Fair question! The brand of bike isn't important (it's a Rize) I don't think. This is about the motor and drive type. And let's assume for a second you aren't a super experienced super human rider. I'm NOT going to make this about the rider, or what's possible.

Being in the right gear is FAR more important on a mid drive than a hub. For example, consider the consequences of a quick stop with no time to downshift. A geared hub can use it's throttle to accelerate away, or at the very least power the bike far enough to get the bike in the right gear where you can provide some assistance, VERY EASILY.

Same scenario on a mid drive, especially a lower powered (under 500w) mid drive? Even the throttle equipped Ultra can be in trouble here when stopped in it's upper gear range. It's MUCH easier to stall a mid drive (that's in the wrong gear) on an unanticipated hill. That's pickier the way I see it.

Even at cruise speeds keeping an eye on what gear you are in, allowing you to anticipate that next shift, on a mid drive is more important than what you can get away with on a hub drive. To do a good job on a mid drive those shifts need to be anticipated sooner. That makes the mid drive pickier.

So I guess my thought is when saying pickier, I'm comparing what you can easily get away with on a hub drive vs. what you SHOULD be doing when riding a mid drive.

Got it! Makes sense, from the POV of a rider that's not familiar with bike shifting. Interestingly, you also are making an argument for Enviolo CVTs with automatic shifting.
OTOH, would you agree that for an experienced rider, a mid is not more difficult? I'm thinking of riders that are experienced at downshifting before stopping and avoiding stopping on hills when possible.
Also, I've found by experience that my low powered Bosch mid drive gives me plenty of boost if I inadvertently stopped in the wrong gear, especially facing uphill. I generally avoid starting with any power if I'm on flat ground and in a low gear because it's more controlled and more familiar to me. I get a "whoa" feeling if I start with power in a low gear on the flats!

 

[Gionnirocket]

Got it! Makes sense, from the POV of a rider that's not familiar with bike shifting. Interestingly, you also are making an argument for Enviolo CVTs with automatic shifting.
OTOH, would you agree that for an experienced rider, a mid is not more difficult? I'm thinking of riders that are experienced at downshifting before stopping and avoiding stopping on hills when possible.
Also, I've found by experience that my low powered Bosch mid drive gives me plenty of boost if I inadvertently stopped in the wrong gear, especially facing uphill. I generally avoid starting with any power if I'm on flat ground and in a low gear because it's more controlled and more familiar to me. I get a "whoa" feeling if I start with power in a low gear on the flats!

I think it's more of a grey then black and white discussion. With mid drive you can certainly start on a flat in any of the lower half of gears without issue if you don't slam it to full power. And even in the higher half if done with some thought. Again....this all goes back to proper tuning and PAS selection as well.
My PAS 1 cuts out at 5 to 7mph and at low current on a flat in the lower half of the gear set and I always feel in control as the cadence increases the power drops off.

 

[AHicks]

Got it! Makes sense, from the POV of a rider that's not familiar with bike shifting. Interestingly, you also are making an argument for Enviolo CVTs with automatic shifting.
OTOH, would you agree that for an experienced rider, a mid is not more difficult? I'm thinking of riders that are experienced at downshifting before stopping and avoiding stopping on hills when possible.
Also, I've found by experience that my low powered Bosch mid drive gives me plenty of boost if I inadvertently stopped in the wrong gear, especially facing uphill. I generally avoid starting with any power if I'm on flat ground and in a low gear because it's more controlled and more familiar to me. I get a "whoa" feeling if I start with power in a low gear on the flats!

I consider myself to be an "experienced" rider. Been riding derailleur equipped bikes for maybe 50 years now. Shifting is not something I spend a lot of time thinking about. The Ultra even has a "shift detector" I rarely feel. I own and love both the mid and geared hub bikes. The 1000w geared hub has plenty of power to haul me up the biggest hills in the area I frequent, so the Ultra has no HUGE power advantage to get the job done for me.

Which am I more likely to grab for a ride? The Ultra, but mostly because it's newer. I will admit though, that with the updated torque sensing (Frey Smooth tune) it makes for some pretty easy riding. It's a torque monster to start with, and when that's combined with the finesse available with this refined tune, it's a pretty awesome bike. In PAS 2 for instance, light pedal pressure results in less than 100w draw. Heavier pressure can go up to 400w (still in PAS 2). That range of power, combined with just a gear change here and there when in the hills, makes for a pretty neat bike ride. Think muscle bike. And no, it's not a battery hog. Average range on a charge in the 30-35 mile range (in the hills,dragging my 300lb butt).

Doesn't change the fact the geared hub bike is (can be) so simple to ride.

And I agree whole heartedly, that all else being equal, the geared hub vs. mid difference is a pretty grey area. Issue is when considering "all else being equal", most of the time, there's quite a difference in the climbing capability of the geared hub. -Al

 

[Gionnirocket]

I consider myself to be an "experienced" rider. Been riding derailleur equipped bikes for maybe 50 years now. Shifting is not something I spend a lot of time thinking about. The Ultra even has a "shift detector" I rarely feel. I own and love both the mid and geared hub bikes. The 1000w geared hub has plenty of power to haul me up the biggest hills in the area I frequent, so the Ultra has no HUGE power advantage to get the job done for me.

Which am I more likely to grab for a ride? The Ultra, but mostly because it's newer. I will admit though, that with the updated torque sensing (Frey Smooth tune) it makes for some pretty easy riding. It's a torque monster to start with, and when that's combined with the finesse available with this refined tune, it's a pretty awesome bike. In PAS 2 for instance, light pedal pressure results in less than 100w draw. Heavier pressure can go up to 400w (still in PAS 2). That range of power, combined with just a gear change here and there when in the hills, makes for a pretty neat bike ride. Think muscle bike. And no, it's not a battery hog. Average range on a charge in the 30-35 mile range (in the hills,dragging my 300lb butt).

Doesn't change the fact the geared hub bike is (can be) so simple to ride.

And I agree whole heartedly, that all else being equal, the geared hub vs. mid difference is a pretty grey area. Issue is when considering "all else being equal", most of the time, there's quite a difference in the climbing capability of the geared hub. -Al

I have the BBSO2B running like a well oiled machine but I sometimes regret not picking up an Ultra powered bike when the UARTs were available. I'd like to experience what torque sensing brings to the game.

 

[PedalUma]

Interesting. My bikes increase power with pedal pressure and with cadence. Maximum power is achieved at a cadence of 80 RPM. The best experience is lightly spinning while pulling back on the pedals. If I launch from a high gear all I need to do is minimize pedal pressure and ease into it as cadence increases. That is weird, I didn't know that Che Guevara still existed. It is so easy and fun to hit the ignore tab. I love those Box 3 nine-speed group sets that are 11-46. You can climb a cliff. But, they are only for freehubs. Zoom the tail of this bike.

 

[retiredNH]

And I agree whole heartedly, that all else being equal, the geared hub vs. mid difference is a pretty grey area. Issue is when considering "all else being equal", most of the time, there's quite a difference in the climbing capability of the geared hub. -Al

Yes, there are so many variables, especially how the controllers are programmed, that affect ride quality.
And of course, when discussing hub versus mid drive, it's hard to ignore the huge cost difference. I suspect riders in any but the more hilly areas would be quite happy with hub drives. And that's where most folks live. Interesting too that even Trek has a line of hub drives priced under 2K. Probably their biggest sellers in cities?

 

[PedalUma]

My friend Fritz has some inside info from a contact at Sondors. He says that Cost Co will sell a bunch of returned hub drives for $500. These are $1700 bikes. I live in a hilly area and after comparing, I just can't do a hub motor. The last I rode was in 2019, an Orbea Gain. You could ghost pedal. It was a Euro-build like Stefan's so it toped out at 15 Mph. And could only do about 12 miles at full power. I can't believe that people wore spandex to ride something that sucks so bad.

 

[AHicks]

Got it! Makes sense, from the POV of a rider that's not familiar with bike shifting. Interestingly, you also are making an argument for Enviolo CVTs with automatic shifting.
OTOH, would you agree that for an experienced rider, a mid is not more difficult? I'm thinking of riders that are experienced at downshifting before stopping and avoiding stopping on hills when possible.
Also, I've found by experience that my low powered Bosch mid drive gives me plenty of boost if I inadvertently stopped in the wrong gear, especially facing uphill. I generally avoid starting with any power if I'm on flat ground and in a low gear because it's more controlled and more familiar to me. I get a "whoa" feeling if I start with power in a low gear on the flats!

Wow. Just wow. Funny you should mention this. Speaking of interesting, Evelo sent me an email a few minutes ago notifying me that a shipment of bikes had arrived. Their brand new bike, the Atlas, is now shipping. This bike offers the Bafang M600 motor coupled to the Enviolo Trekking (manual shift) CVT via Gates belt drive. As they wanted full payment to reserve one, I've been waiting for this email since early spring. Long story a bit shorter, I have one on the way. Should be here next week. -Al

 

[Gionnirocket]

Wow. Just wow. Funny you should mention this. Speaking of interesting, Evelo sent me an email a few minutes ago notifying me that a shipment of bikes had arrived. Their brand new bike, the Atlas, is now shipping. This bike offers the Bafang M600 motor coupled to the Enviolo Trekking (manual shift) CVT via Gates belt drive. As they wanted full payment to reserve one, I've been waiting for this email since early spring. Long story a bit shorter, I have one on the way. Should be here next week. -Al

That's Awesome!!!
... and it sounds like you'll be in position to lend me the Rize

 

[retiredNH]

Wow. Just wow. Funny you should mention this. Speaking of interesting, Evelo sent me an email a few minutes ago notifying me that a shipment of bikes had arrived. Their brand new bike, the Atlas, is now shipping. This bike offers the Bafang M600 motor coupled to the Enviolo Trekking (manual shift) CVT via Gates belt drive. As they wanted full payment to reserve one, I've been waiting for this email since early spring. Long story a bit shorter, I have one on the way. Should be here next week. -Al

I've been drooling over their bikes. If my health declines any more, I may spring for one of their beasts. Alaskan first turned me on to them....

 

[AHicks]

That's Awesome!!!
... and it sounds like you'll be in position to lend me the Rize

This will be bike #4 for me (6 total). I'll ride it for a bit and get it sorted. At that point it may be time to make a selling decision regarding some others.

I've been drooling over their bikes. If my health declines any more, I may spring for one of their beasts. Alaskan first turned me on to them....

The combination of torque sensing, the CVT, the belt, and a throttle were just too much for me to resist....
Talk about options when getting caught in the wrong gear at an up hill stop sign. That's a complete non-event here....

 

[tomjasz]

FWIW a quality hub drive, programable controller with hubsinks and statoraide will climb like a beast and not overheat.

 

[Gionnirocket]

This will be bike #4 for me (6 total). I'll ride it for a bit and get it sorted. At that point it may be time to make a selling decision regarding some others.

The combination of torque sensing, the CVT, the belt, and a throttle were just too much for me to resist....
Talk about options when getting caught in the wrong gear at an up hill stop sign. That's a complete non-event here....

Honesty... If I do get the itch and/or my bbs02b terds... I may follow your lead

 

[tomjasz]

Honesty... If I do get the itch and/or my bbs02b terds... I may follow your lead

I dunno. The BBSHD has a better parts stream and is a sweet motor. Trying to stock parts for the frame integrated motors was a total nightmare.

 

[PedalUma]

A guy just called. I sold him an analog new MTB four-years-ago. He has attracted nothing but a litany of bad luck, accidents and legal problems since I last saw him then. He went on and on about his woes. Now he wants me to make that MTB electric. And wants to send referrals my way. I would pay to do without people he has met in hospitals, court houses, and jails. For people that have had their licenses revoked eclectic bikes could make sense but it seems like inviting trouble.

 

[Gionnirocket]

I dunno. The BBSHD has a better parts stream and is a sweet motor. Trying to stock parts for the frame integrated motors was a total nightmare.

True_dat'... but part of the objective was to have a torque sensing system

 

[PedalUma]

You could put the throttle next to the crank shaft and glue baseball cards to the shaft so they brush against the throttle when you pedal harder. It would make a racy sound as a bonus.