What would the benefit be of using the throttle if you have to also pedal to get to 28mph? I guess I’m not seeing how that would help. IME, you really don’t need to pedal that hard above 20mph to max out the pedal assist. Also, it’s not hard for me to see how that would violate the spirit of the law (especially if you were in cadence sensing mode and were just ghost pedaling.)
Next Crosscurrent S upgrade
- Thread starter Ant
- Start date
Asher
Well-Known Member
I like to use Eco mode and pedal at around 22 mph on flats, but sometimes I want to go faster in bursts, typically around aggressive, fast car drivers in traffic.
True about ghost pedaling, though you could have minimum cadence/torque or whatever.
In general, I'm not sure there's a point to legally privileging throttle under pedal assist, but it's not something you get until you ride with both in traffic perhaps.
Chris Hammond
Well-Known Member
I agree with the idea of a zero assist mode. Tora was asked about this by Court during his initial review of the CCS. Tora's response was that they didn't want customers to have a "heavy bike experience" and that Eco mode was designed to help the bike replicate the feel of a regular bike without assistance. However, many owners have noted that even in Eco mode they can ride faster than most non ebikes they run across. Personally the first part of my planned commute home is mostly inner city type riding and downhill, which isn't conducive to going fast. Thus my plan is to just not turn on the bike until I actually need the assistance.
Asher
Well-Known Member
Yeah I just do a lot of coasting, and try not to use the brakes in those situations.
To address Tora's concern, it could be an option that you enable in the deep menu, so that when you hit minus on Eco it cuts the assist, and have that option off by default, but users can turn it on.
Bruce Arnold
Well-Known Member
Ride the bike for another couple hundred miles and you'll find you are changing PA levels without thinking about it. That's been true for me, anyway. I go up and down as needed or desired now. I usually like to ride in Eco or One, but for instance yesterday put it up into S to get through a green light (like @Dunbar said.)
Many of your suggestions would raise the price, and Tora is trying to keep this a good choice as an entry-level ebike. For instance, hard wiring the light would make the cost go up. (I would like changing the battery to be easier.)
Some of your suggestions are just personal preference. Example: I use the cruise control all the time, even in traffic. Since hitting the brakes turns it off, there's no particular danger. I also do use the lower gears, so an 11-28 would be a loss of function for me.
All that being said, I appreciate your insights and hope you'll continue to share new ideas as you ride the bike more. That's the best part of this forum to me -- real world experience from diverse people with different riding styles!
Reid
Well-Known Member
I really like zero assist mode, and I have it by flicking a tiny switch that closes a pair of brake inhibitor wires.
My CCS is on easy rolling Michelin Protek Urban city tires and they are pumped hard, over-spec at 100 PSI to really glide well.
Yet my ride remains comfy because my front fork and Suntour suspension post are both tuned to my body weight and both are in a constant float. No road jitter gets by them.
Manually, yeah, the CCS is still a heavy bike but I can pedal it manually with pleasure because there is so little drag from my thin and lively tire set.
And when when I need motive help (which I always do since the crash six weeks ago injured my knee), the already-on controller commences to operate the motor as instantly as I flick the uninhibitor (grin) switch.
I use the switch all the time and wonder if others would enjoy having one, too. Very easy to make.
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Asher
Well-Known Member
I realize some of those would add cost, so I split them apart for a slightly costlier model - though creating more models creates costs of it's own, unless your total bike sales volume goes up (and I think it would).
As for the 11-28, I agree with your point about preference, though I think it can be addressed through splitting the model into a cruiser commuter and a sport commuter as I think I wrote. Of course, you need high sales volumes to justify dicing up your models without increasing costs considerably.
So, a cruiser (maybe with tire clearance for schwalbe Moto's, 2-3" tires), a sport model and possibly a sport premium model.
Reid
Well-Known Member
Customize! One-off mods to each his own! Ha ha! And of course, keep it simple to not give Tora a migraine, only a laugh, because Tora feels our personal pangs, our wants, our ingeniously simple and logically presented improvements to his malleable machinery,
Asher
Well-Known Member
Ha Tora is a smart guy with strong attention to detail. Personally, it's hard to customize when it means doing away with perfectly good new bike components.
Basically, I'd like Juiced to do a bike like this (except slightly cheaper Deore drivetrain, bigger battery, motor and a narrower cassette).
https://www.trekbikes.com/us/en_US/...kes/super-commuter/super-commuter-8s/p/17297/
Andy_in_CA
Active Member
https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml?bill_id=201520160AB1096
SECTION 1.
Section 312.5 is added to the Vehicle Code, to read:
312.5.
(a) An “electric bicycle” is a bicycle equipped with fully operable pedals and an electric motor of less than 750 watts.
(1) A “class 1 electric bicycle,” or “low-speed pedal-assisted electric bicycle,” is a bicycle equipped with a motor that provides assistance only when the rider is pedaling, and that ceases to provide assistance when the bicycle reaches the speed of 20 miles per hour.
(2) A “class 2 electric bicycle,” or “low-speed throttle-assisted electric bicycle,” is a bicycle equipped with a motor that may be used exclusively to propel the bicycle, and that is not capable of providing assistance when the bicycle reaches the speed of 20 miles per hour.
(3) A “class 3 electric bicycle,” or “speed pedal-assisted electric bicycle,” is a bicycle equipped with a motor that provides assistance only when the rider is pedaling, and that ceases to provide assistance when the bicycle reaches the speed of 28 miles per hour, and equipped with a speedometer.
This kind of says it all. Providing assist up to 28 mph while pedaling. This with the combination of the a class 2 (my guess is class 3 must abide by all the lower class rules... give you the throttle less pedaling up to 20 mph.
interestingly on another note ... I spoke to Surface 604 about their Rook\Colt bikes as I almost bought one of those... and They said they complied with CA law... I said they didn't because at the time they didn't have motor inhibitors... now in the model 2018 year they do...
I think things are not enforced strictly yet...but with more saturation of ebikes...I'm guessing they will. All it takes is one stupid reckless ebiker to hurt someone... or someone going to fast and can't stop and gets hit....
my .02
SECTION 1.
Section 312.5 is added to the Vehicle Code, to read:
312.5.
(a) An “electric bicycle” is a bicycle equipped with fully operable pedals and an electric motor of less than 750 watts.
(1) A “class 1 electric bicycle,” or “low-speed pedal-assisted electric bicycle,” is a bicycle equipped with a motor that provides assistance only when the rider is pedaling, and that ceases to provide assistance when the bicycle reaches the speed of 20 miles per hour.
(2) A “class 2 electric bicycle,” or “low-speed throttle-assisted electric bicycle,” is a bicycle equipped with a motor that may be used exclusively to propel the bicycle, and that is not capable of providing assistance when the bicycle reaches the speed of 20 miles per hour.
(3) A “class 3 electric bicycle,” or “speed pedal-assisted electric bicycle,” is a bicycle equipped with a motor that provides assistance only when the rider is pedaling, and that ceases to provide assistance when the bicycle reaches the speed of 28 miles per hour, and equipped with a speedometer.
This kind of says it all. Providing assist up to 28 mph while pedaling. This with the combination of the a class 2 (my guess is class 3 must abide by all the lower class rules... give you the throttle less pedaling up to 20 mph.
interestingly on another note ... I spoke to Surface 604 about their Rook\Colt bikes as I almost bought one of those... and They said they complied with CA law... I said they didn't because at the time they didn't have motor inhibitors... now in the model 2018 year they do...
I think things are not enforced strictly yet...but with more saturation of ebikes...I'm guessing they will. All it takes is one stupid reckless ebiker to hurt someone... or someone going to fast and can't stop and gets hit....
my .02
Asher
Well-Known Member
After riding 600 miles, I have many thoughts on upgrades, but I'll confine these to the firmware:
*Zero assist mode
*Always on lights option
*User adjustable default assist (the level that appears when you turn on the bike)
*One button, all systems go
Turning the bike on is an unnecessarily multi-step process, especially for quick trips:
1. Turn on battery.
2. Hold on button for several seconds
3. Hold plus button for several seconds to activate light
4. Press minus or plus to adjust to desired assist.
5. Hold rear light button (night)
And all that's after, usually, donning your helmet, and unlocking your bike and/or loading a pannier.
Tech permitting, there's no reason steps 1-4 shouldn't be consolidated into one step. #5 too for a model with integrated rear lights.
*Zero assist mode
*Always on lights option
*User adjustable default assist (the level that appears when you turn on the bike)
*One button, all systems go
Turning the bike on is an unnecessarily multi-step process, especially for quick trips:
1. Turn on battery.
2. Hold on button for several seconds
3. Hold plus button for several seconds to activate light
4. Press minus or plus to adjust to desired assist.
5. Hold rear light button (night)
And all that's after, usually, donning your helmet, and unlocking your bike and/or loading a pannier.
Tech permitting, there's no reason steps 1-4 shouldn't be consolidated into one step. #5 too for a model with integrated rear lights.
Chris Hammond
Well-Known Member
Well Asher I have already caught up to you. I got my CCS 2 weeks ago and have just over 620 miles on it.
. BTW, I have noticed the rather extensive process of getting a ride started, I also have to get my cyclocomputer up and running (3 step process), and usually starting up Strava app on my phone. A little voice recognition for everything that responded to "Start my ride" would be great.
Reid
Well-Known Member
You have the bigger battery, right? The stock 12.8Ah battery does not need a special step. My bike is like so: Press "ON" for an annoyingly unneccessarily long time. Then I either leave OFF the killassist switch, or flick it ON if I want to pedal manually and use the bike's odometer function.Well Asher I have already caught up to you. I got my CCS 2 weeks ago and have just over 620 miles on it.
Too bad there is no total milage odometer!
We all sure hope Tora Harris ASAP makes the turn-on time a good deal faster. Why the need to hold the ON button for so long? A delay is needed to prevent inadvertant turn-ons. But hell, I cafe-lock my bike with a frame mounted ring lock. Bike isn't going anywhere, even if a meddler figured out he has to hold the ON button for several seconds and then figure out what to do next, as I leave the killassist switch engaged when I park my CCS.
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@Asher
Regarding #5 above I have ordered what I hope to be automatic rear light with motion sensing as long as mounted vertical…
https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B07BJKQ...olid=19CQH30VK0PQQ&psc=0&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it
Now is there a vertical mounting location that has good rear visibility? I don't know.. but its cheap and it's PRIME order so returning should be easy.
My plan is to watch battery usage over the course of a week or two, and then put in a calendar reminder to recharge every X days once I know the battery pattern.
I should have put this in the prior message but I just now remembered --
Regarding firmware updates:
I recall there being a conversation about needing setting to calibrate the "fuel gauge" for 52V vs 48V batteries?
Hopefully that would just be firmware in the handlebar computer, not the controller.
Regarding firmware updates:
I recall there being a conversation about needing setting to calibrate the "fuel gauge" for 52V vs 48V batteries?
Hopefully that would just be firmware in the handlebar computer, not the controller.
Asher
Well-Known Member
Something I'd like to see at least tested, to see if it's an improvement:
SPEED based assist, instead of POWER based. Let's say your maximum steady maintenance manpower is 300 watts. Then the bike puts in whatever power needed to reach your desired speed, which you could vary from say 10 to 28+ mph, as long as you were putting in 300 watts (or whatever you set that threshold to, which would be a deep menu setting).
Can't say with certainty without trying it, but I think this would be much more intuitive and suited for real life biking, so you wouldn't have to adjust the assist every time conditions change. You arrive at the bottom of a hill, or into a sudden burst of headwind? No problem, the bike will ensure your speed remains the same. Conditions haven't changed but you want to ride slower? Just pedal less hard like it is now.
Alternately, if you pedal below your own designated threshold assist is reduced, so you don't achieve your target speed.
This would also make it much easier to voluntarily comply with speed regulations, like say, on a bike path where you're not even supposed to ride 20+ mph ebikes.
To adjust the speed, you'd want a dial instead of buttons. Make it a nice solid click between speeds, and you could go back to the power based assist now, if you wanted. Each click would be +2-3 mph
I don't think the torqure sensor is being used for it's full potential without this feature.
SPEED based assist, instead of POWER based. Let's say your maximum steady maintenance manpower is 300 watts. Then the bike puts in whatever power needed to reach your desired speed, which you could vary from say 10 to 28+ mph, as long as you were putting in 300 watts (or whatever you set that threshold to, which would be a deep menu setting).
Can't say with certainty without trying it, but I think this would be much more intuitive and suited for real life biking, so you wouldn't have to adjust the assist every time conditions change. You arrive at the bottom of a hill, or into a sudden burst of headwind? No problem, the bike will ensure your speed remains the same. Conditions haven't changed but you want to ride slower? Just pedal less hard like it is now.
Alternately, if you pedal below your own designated threshold assist is reduced, so you don't achieve your target speed.
This would also make it much easier to voluntarily comply with speed regulations, like say, on a bike path where you're not even supposed to ride 20+ mph ebikes.
To adjust the speed, you'd want a dial instead of buttons. Make it a nice solid click between speeds, and you could go back to the power based assist now, if you wanted. Each click would be +2-3 mph
I don't think the torqure sensor is being used for it's full potential without this feature.
Chris Hammond
Well-Known Member
I want to meet the guy who puts in 300W consistently. I think you are looking for a really smart cruise control system that would require a HR monitor, power meter, etc.
. I think you are looking for a really smart cruise control system that would require a HR monitor, power meter, etc.
Asher
Well-Known Member
I want to meet the guy who puts in 300W consistently
Nah, you just set in your own power rate once (I guess 150-200w would be more realistic, ive never used a power meter), or the machine could measure it over time, and then use the torque sensor to mete out power. The current system is easier for the programmer, the system I'm proposing is easier for the user
.Captain Slow
Well-Known Member
I want to meet the guy who puts in 300W consistently
Here's one guy who averaged 285 watts for a six hour race.
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