Next Crosscurrent S upgrade
- Thread starter Ant
- Start date
Asher
Well-Known Member
I tried Andy's this morning, had a great time with it 
.
My sister just bought Surface 604's Rook, said it is the stores bestselling model (plus the diamond version, Colt, I imagine). Like Juiced, it offers great value compared to the more well known brands.
Car companies like to benchmark their products against rivals, and Juiced could do the same with Surface.
Two thoughts:
1. Chain guard, so that you don't need to cinch your pants. This is a cheap no brainer IMO.
2. Real variable frame sizing. Longer top tubes for bigger sizes, not just bigger seat posts. I know Juiced wants those sweet bulk discounts, but with more sales this would be less of an issue.
3. Also, not sure if the bikes should have a seatpost that's so easy to remove. Markings on the seat post are also cool.
Not really an upgrade, but despite the excitement of others, paying $1000 extra, 50% more, for 18% more watt hours, seems like a tough pill to swallow, for the CCS 48V 19.2 aH vs 21 aH 52V.
.My sister just bought Surface 604's Rook, said it is the stores bestselling model (plus the diamond version, Colt, I imagine). Like Juiced, it offers great value compared to the more well known brands.
Car companies like to benchmark their products against rivals, and Juiced could do the same with Surface.
Two thoughts:
1. Chain guard, so that you don't need to cinch your pants. This is a cheap no brainer IMO.
2. Real variable frame sizing. Longer top tubes for bigger sizes, not just bigger seat posts. I know Juiced wants those sweet bulk discounts, but with more sales this would be less of an issue.
3. Also, not sure if the bikes should have a seatpost that's so easy to remove. Markings on the seat post are also cool.
Not really an upgrade, but despite the excitement of others, paying $1000 extra, 50% more, for 18% more watt hours, seems like a tough pill to swallow, for the CCS 48V 19.2 aH vs 21 aH 52V.
That’s more road buzz from the cobble stones. They do use wider tubular tires at much lower pressures for those races. Tubular tires don’t really have much pinch flat risk compared to clinchers. AFAIK road bikes don’t really ever run the risk of losing the chain from chain slap (at least I’ve never heard of it happening.) Many cyclocross bikes run mountain derailleurs for this reason.
Asher
Well-Known Member
Looking at some other bikes, Juiced seems way beyond other bikes on raw specs, for the price (really can't find anything else competitive). IMO, Juiced could benefit from charging $100 more for a bit more fit and finish around the bike - fenders like those on the RipCurrent or better matching aluminum fenders, better paint job for the rack, chainguard, GPS if it's not too costly, etc. Maybe keep the Air at a low price and polish the CCS more.
There's a bigger market than the specs hounds, eg Vanmoof https://www.theverge.com/2017/6/23/15860492/vanmoof-electrified-s-2017-preview
There's a bigger market than the specs hounds
, eg Vanmoof https://www.theverge.com/2017/6/23/15860492/vanmoof-electrified-s-2017-preview
Asher
Well-Known Member
After riding for 60 miles, some thoughts:
I see the CCS as an urban, utility flat bar road bike. With that in mind:
*Use a narrower handlebar to suit sporty urban riding - though evidently many people don't want this - I think this is best accomodated by creating another bike in the lineup for more casual riders (or beefing up the Air or Ocean)
*Allow the throttle to take the bike up to a user designated limit, <= 28 mph for class 3, when combined with pedaling. I looove the throttle for acceleration at lights and through turns to beat cars coming my way, but I often ride with low assist (Eco/1). Sometimes I get into a bit of traffic where I want high speed briefly, and don't want to fiddle with the assist level.
*Have a quick button press combination that can convert it between class 2 and class 3, to make it easier to stay at safe speeds in congested areas or bike paths where class 3 is illegal.
I would happily trade this for the Cruise Control, which I can't see a safe use for in any populated area. Cruise Control's originates in serene highway driving for hours between cities (and nowadays is semi-automated with detection of vehicles ahead, ACC).
*The times I've tried the Walk feature, it was too fast. Maybe it's for stairs?
*Sometimes I want to pedal softly, but not receive any assist, to get to a red light or whatever. Right now, I have to either coast or use assist. I'd like an option to set the threshold for when the assist kicks in, based on pedaling force I guess.
*Better bike security. Maybe making the bike inoperable without a key in it (certainly with the battery, and maybe even without the battery).
*Narrower cassette range (11-28?). I'll probably do this myself, but I find myself wanting smaller steps between the higher gears, and not using the lower gears much at all, even on low assist.
*Hex bolt for the seatpost, and hex front wheel skewer, not a quick release.
I also think there's room for a more premium bike, say $2000ish with 12.8 aH battery. Basically all the upgrades people here do on their own, or more polish:
*Like Ravi said, better groupset (Deore or SLX?), brakes, though I haven't had an issue with the latter.
*Color matched alloy fenders and rack (black or chrome)
*Rear wheel lock
*Bluetooth integration with phone would be cool, if you can get the software off the shelf at low unit costs (not commission it yourself).
*Optional Airzound horn
edit:
*Maybe a rigid carbon fork to cut weight?
*Add a no assist level, to save battery but keep the light on. Have a user option to automatically cut assist at 5-15% of battery capacity, to avoid battery damage and/or save the juice for the light(s), so you don't get stuck with an empty battery and no lights at night.
*Frames that vary by size in more than just the seatpost.
*In general, benchmark the bike against Stromer, Trek, Specialized (minus the mid drive motors if they cost a lot more) electric commuter bikes.
Edit 2:
When bike sales volume allows, create a more casual speed cruiser model so that the CCS can focus on sporty riding.
I see the CCS as an urban, utility flat bar road bike. With that in mind:
*Use a narrower handlebar to suit sporty urban riding - though evidently many people don't want this - I think this is best accomodated by creating another bike in the lineup for more casual riders (or beefing up the Air or Ocean)
*Allow the throttle to take the bike up to a user designated limit, <= 28 mph for class 3, when combined with pedaling. I looove the throttle for acceleration at lights and through turns to beat cars coming my way, but I often ride with low assist (Eco/1). Sometimes I get into a bit of traffic where I want high speed briefly, and don't want to fiddle with the assist level.
*Have a quick button press combination that can convert it between class 2 and class 3, to make it easier to stay at safe speeds in congested areas or bike paths where class 3 is illegal.
I would happily trade this for the Cruise Control, which I can't see a safe use for in any populated area. Cruise Control's originates in serene highway driving for hours between cities (and nowadays is semi-automated with detection of vehicles ahead, ACC).
*The times I've tried the Walk feature, it was too fast. Maybe it's for stairs?
*Sometimes I want to pedal softly, but not receive any assist, to get to a red light or whatever. Right now, I have to either coast or use assist. I'd like an option to set the threshold for when the assist kicks in, based on pedaling force I guess.
*Better bike security. Maybe making the bike inoperable without a key in it (certainly with the battery, and maybe even without the battery).
*Narrower cassette range (11-28?). I'll probably do this myself, but I find myself wanting smaller steps between the higher gears, and not using the lower gears much at all, even on low assist.
*Hex bolt for the seatpost, and hex front wheel skewer, not a quick release.
I also think there's room for a more premium bike, say $2000ish with 12.8 aH battery. Basically all the upgrades people here do on their own, or more polish:
*Like Ravi said, better groupset (Deore or SLX?), brakes, though I haven't had an issue with the latter.
*Color matched alloy fenders and rack (black or chrome)
*Rear wheel lock
*Bluetooth integration with phone would be cool, if you can get the software off the shelf at low unit costs (not commission it yourself).
*Optional Airzound horn
edit:
*Maybe a rigid carbon fork to cut weight?
*Add a no assist level, to save battery but keep the light on. Have a user option to automatically cut assist at 5-15% of battery capacity, to avoid battery damage and/or save the juice for the light(s), so you don't get stuck with an empty battery and no lights at night.
*Frames that vary by size in more than just the seatpost.
*In general, benchmark the bike against Stromer, Trek, Specialized (minus the mid drive motors if they cost a lot more) electric commuter bikes.
Edit 2:
When bike sales volume allows, create a more casual speed cruiser model so that the CCS can focus on sporty riding.
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Andy_in_CA
Active Member
Current CA law does not allow a throttle to work above 20 mph
Asher
Well-Known Member
But the throttle would only surge you past 20 mph if you were already pedaling. It would be a temporary increase in the assist level. Hard to see a material difference between (a) setting the assist at S and getting 28 mph with pedaling vs (b) pedaling and pushing the throttle and getting 28 mph. I want this change because I like pedaling hard at around 22 mph for now, but have moments where I want more speed for brief bursts, and playing with the assist is clumsy in the heat of the moment.
Is anyone here hacking the firmware
?The throttle works like the pedal assist at 28mph. Once you get up to 20mph the controller starts pulling the power back. So you can pedal as hard as you want but you’re not going to go much faster than 20mph. You can always use a hybrid approach. Use the throttle up to ~20mph and then release the throttle and pedal. If you want to go slower just turn down the assist level to level 1 or 2. I’ve gotten pretty good at being able to reach down and turn the assist level to S without looking down when I need short bursts of speed (like racing to get through a stale green light.)
Asher
Well-Known Member
Changing the assist is clunky compared to using the throttle, especially if you've moved the controller aside like I have to make room for a horn.
If the throttle +pedaling took you to 28 there'd be much less need to change assist mid ride.
Chris Hammond
Well-Known Member
IIRC, the throttle limit of 20 mph is federal law regarding ebikes. This is why you see it universally on all mass produced ebikes. I don't see Juiced being interested in producing non-legal bikes. There are some vendors that do. SLX and Luna are a couple off the top of my head. Also Juiced does have the battery cutoff limit feature you are talking about. There is a setting in the advanced menu for LVC or low voltage cutoff. You can dial in whatever you want there, most people should set this at around 20% to avoid deep discharging of the battery.
As I understand it, there is no way to make a class 3 legal e-bike without having the throttle cut the assist at 20mph. On my Cross Current I typically use the throttle + pedaling to get up to 15mph and then release the throttle and continue pedaling up to ~28mph. IME you don’t have to pedal very hard to maintain 28mph. Additionally, on the Cross Current S you have the option of turning off torque sensing so that you would just need to ‘ghost pedal’ to maintain 28mph.
Asher
Well-Known Member
I understand the legal limits on throttle, but it's not clear that what I'm proposing is illegal:
If user is pedaling: throttle button pushes bike to 28mph
If user is not pedaling: throttle button pushes bike to 20 mph.
Regarding the battery cutoff, that's a good point, though not quite the same. Overall though I think a zero assist mode has its uses.
If user is pedaling: throttle button pushes bike to 28mph
If user is not pedaling: throttle button pushes bike to 20 mph.
Regarding the battery cutoff, that's a good point, though not quite the same. Overall though I think a zero assist mode has its uses.
What would the benefit be of using the throttle if you have to also pedal to get to 28mph? I guess I’m not seeing how that would help. IME, you really don’t need to pedal that hard above 20mph to max out the pedal assist. Also, it’s not hard for me to see how that would violate the spirit of the law (especially if you were in cadence sensing mode and were just ghost pedaling.)
Asher
Well-Known Member
I like to use Eco mode and pedal at around 22 mph on flats, but sometimes I want to go faster in bursts, typically around aggressive, fast car drivers in traffic.
True about ghost pedaling, though you could have minimum cadence/torque or whatever.
In general, I'm not sure there's a point to legally privileging throttle under pedal assist, but it's not something you get until you ride with both in traffic perhaps.
Chris Hammond
Well-Known Member
I agree with the idea of a zero assist mode. Tora was asked about this by Court during his initial review of the CCS. Tora's response was that they didn't want customers to have a "heavy bike experience" and that Eco mode was designed to help the bike replicate the feel of a regular bike without assistance. However, many owners have noted that even in Eco mode they can ride faster than most non ebikes they run across. Personally the first part of my planned commute home is mostly inner city type riding and downhill, which isn't conducive to going fast. Thus my plan is to just not turn on the bike until I actually need the assistance.
Asher
Well-Known Member
Yeah I just do a lot of coasting, and try not to use the brakes in those situations.
To address Tora's concern, it could be an option that you enable in the deep menu, so that when you hit minus on Eco it cuts the assist, and have that option off by default, but users can turn it on.
Bruce Arnold
Well-Known Member
Ride the bike for another couple hundred miles and you'll find you are changing PA levels without thinking about it. That's been true for me, anyway. I go up and down as needed or desired now. I usually like to ride in Eco or One, but for instance yesterday put it up into S to get through a green light (like @Dunbar said.)
Many of your suggestions would raise the price, and Tora is trying to keep this a good choice as an entry-level ebike. For instance, hard wiring the light would make the cost go up. (I would like changing the battery to be easier.)
Some of your suggestions are just personal preference. Example: I use the cruise control all the time, even in traffic. Since hitting the brakes turns it off, there's no particular danger. I also do use the lower gears, so an 11-28 would be a loss of function for me.
All that being said, I appreciate your insights and hope you'll continue to share new ideas as you ride the bike more. That's the best part of this forum to me -- real world experience from diverse people with different riding styles!
Reid
Well-Known Member
I really like zero assist mode, and I have it by flicking a tiny switch that closes a pair of brake inhibitor wires.
My CCS is on easy rolling Michelin Protek Urban city tires and they are pumped hard, over-spec at 100 PSI to really glide well.
Yet my ride remains comfy because my front fork and Suntour suspension post are both tuned to my body weight and both are in a constant float. No road jitter gets by them.
Manually, yeah, the CCS is still a heavy bike but I can pedal it manually with pleasure because there is so little drag from my thin and lively tire set.
And when when I need motive help (which I always do since the crash six weeks ago injured my knee), the already-on controller commences to operate the motor as instantly as I flick the uninhibitor (grin) switch.
I use the switch all the time and wonder if others would enjoy having one, too. Very easy to make.
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