New year, new cargo ebike

[PedalUma]

I have also done front loader bathtub bikes. What's cool it the front bathtub can be filled with ice and beer. Who needs kids or cargo when you have IPA? This is from Google Maps.

 

[Marcela]

Be interesting to try a front loader. I've had the panniers on the front wheel loaded and didn't like the handling.

 

[None]

Be interesting to try a front loader. I've had the panniers on the front wheel loaded and didn't like the handling.

Back to my original question:
What's your budget?

That usually helps to filter for better suggestions.

Keep in mind than front loader cargo bikes usually start at $2.5K to $3k;
an electric version can be upwards of $5k-$8k.. that's more than my hybrid car cost.

 

[m@Robertson]

The design limit for the rear rack is 150 pounds, so it doesn't match your bikes.

I think the issue is not so much the weight number as it is what the experience is when you operate a bike at upper load limits. With a frontloader, with all the weight low and, more importantly, centered, there is no real perception that you are carrying anything. The first time I rode my Bullitt off from a stop at the grocery store, I thought something was wrong, it was so stable.

That is totally not the case with the midtail and longtail bikes. In the pic below, I rode my Big Fat Dummy with 4 36-paks of soda - two on each side - home from Costco. Who knew that 4 soda cases that size was almost 130 lbs? I sure didn't but after the ride I weighed a can and did the math. 130+230 (actually I was 260 back then) plus 20 lbs of lock and an 80 lb bike gives me a total system weight that is well over 500 lbs when you add in the onboard charger and the tools.

Riding the bike home was, well, exhilarating/terrifying. Balance was a major issue. Speed peaked at around 8 mph and braking was effectively too dangerous to try unless absolutely forced, because if you stopped the bike, if its balance tipped in ANY degree right or left the bike either had to be allowed to fall over, or you tried to save it by muscling the handlebars and the weight to the side was so much you risked twisting the frame as it was going to fall over anyway.

I'm not bringing this all up to disparage midtails/longtails. I still ride the two I own. But the question was indirectly asked as to what was the best, and if riding stability under load day in and day out is what counts, the mid/longtail is at a big disadvantage. Its a problem though because so few Noerth American riders have ever experienced one they don't have any experience to let them make the comparison. Or if they do, its just a quick test ride which is not enough to get used to the different steering, and they come away under the mistaken impression a bakfiets is wobbly.

Here's the BFD as it looks today. Took this pic a month ago when I changed out the worn-almost-smooth tires for new extra fat 5.05's. The duffel bags look super faded out after more than three years on the bike, but otherwise they're as sturdy as when they went on the bike.

 

[m@Robertson]

Be interesting to try a front loader. I've had the panniers on the front wheel loaded and didn't like the handling.

Its not the same as that at all. I know what you mean about the steering. Been there/done that.

The thing is on a frontloader the cargo box is not on the steering wheel like front panniers are, its behind it. You don't know anything is being carried insofar as steering and handling is concerned even up to that 100 lb extreme load.

BTW my frontloader has a rated weight limit of 440 lbs. But the manufacturer has stated the limiting factor are the factory wheels, and if you beef those up the frame can handle the extra load. Thats what I have done. But 100+230+ about 80 for that bike and another 20 in locks puts me up high enough another 50 lb bag is more than I want to risk, even if I could probably do it. Something nobody is talking about yet is weight capacity on the tires and wheels. Thats something you have to figure out if you are going to get serious about a cargo bike. On My Bullitt, the rear Schwalbe Marathon Plus tour is rated for 125 kg, and the front Schwalbe Pickup has the same limit. 250 kg is 550 lbs... These are unusually strong tires which means a lot of others aren't up to that job. On the Envoy pictured above, you see a very (very) strong wheelset, but the 26x2.3 Continental tires weren't up to the 400 lb weight class. I ended up swapping in 2.8's to give me more sidewall/air/pressure/strength.

 

[PedalUma]

Bikes such as Yubas have frame mounted front baskets that to not turn with the front wheel, so they can not flop. Most also have a defloperator spring between the front fork and the down tube. Here is one with a case of Lagunitas bottles. It is a perfect fit.

 

[Brendon@OEB]

What's the hot ticket in the cargo bike arena nowadays? Things must have evolved enough with enough inventory some have probably ridden more than one brand/type, what impressed you or which did you prefer? Lets say you want to carry a 40# bag of bird seed. Cargo to the front or rear, doesn't matter.

C'mon man, you know who to ask for these questions

I rode a Tern GSD the last couple years, incredible bike and very small footprint from a storage point of view. Tows trailers just fine and the passenger capability is great for date night!

Front loaders are the best as the weight is between the axles, huge storage space needed though. If you're not hauling other humans tail loaders are very convenient.

Trailers work really well, especially with your Como 6 (I think that's what you got?), I've set them up with a Travoy, can work well. The Como is pretty slick for longer rides. The Cargo trailer is my go to for less stable loads and lower speeds.

 

[indianajo]

Front loaders are the best as the weight is between the axles, huge storage space needed though.

Take a front bin bike to the grocery or pharmacy yesterday. Steady 23 mph wind gusts to 50 mph. No battery in winter when I cannot charge LiIon outdoors. Even with 18" wide panniers (my width and located behind me) I had to ride in Low4th speed anytime I was riding into the wind. Half the distance. Needed rubber boots, dirty work coat, toolkit, to accomplish work at destination.

 

[Marcela]

C'mon man, you know who to ask for these questions

I rode a Tern GSD the last couple years, incredible bike and very small footprint from a storage point of view. Tows trailers just fine and the passenger capability is great for date night!

Front loaders are the best as the weight is between the axles, huge storage space needed though. If you're not hauling other humans tail loaders are very convenient.

Trailers work really well, especially with your Como 6 (I think that's what you got?), I've set them up with a Travoy, can work well. The Como is pretty slick for longer rides. The Cargo trailer is my go to for less stable loads and lower speeds.

I know, figured you'd be along, thought about going direct but thought I'd throw this to the wind. I thought you liked the Tern. Thanks for the other info.

I had to make a cat food run yesterday. We had pretty good snow and most of the walks were clear but there were some places that could have been tricky. The Como still has the stock tires and they worked pretty good. I was thinking on the start out that some knobs or even spikes would work well, but the smooth oem tires did really well. Both the Como and Vado are 5s, hard to replace something that's been reliable.

 

[spokewrench]

As far as locking is concerned, if you step up to a proper locking scheme, assuming you are also not doing something like leaving it outdoors in an alley away from the street all day, you can now use an effectively angle-grinder-proof lock. If instead you are parking at a store for a half hour or 20 minutes at the bank, you're covered. A Litelok X3 is good for 30 minutes of resistance against a corded angle grinder and even then you need about 6 discs.

At first I was scared not to lock my Radrunner to something immovable. After a week I realized there's no point locking what nobody would steal. I rarely see another bike of any kind because the infrastructure here is against it. When I got my Radrunner, a man across the street expressed envy, saying it would be really cool to ride to work on a bike like mine. It's only 2 miles, but I said it wouldn't be safe because he'd have to use a 55-mph road, often in the dark. I found that he could get there by following a sort of cow path for the last half mile. Recently, I offered to give him the bike. He wasn't interested, now that he'd thought about it realistically. Why lock up something you couldn't even give away to the only person who had expressed interest?

I guess most bike thieves steal for resale. A thief without a battery key would probably not try to pedal away on a heavy-looking single-speed ebike. It would probably take two men with a truck. That would be conspicuous, and the truck would have a registration plate. Before taking the risk, a thief would consider what price he could get for a 1-speed model with no suspension and not known for power. My improvements would probably be a deal breaker. My weird seat post, green fender extension, bolted crates, and dowel across the handlebars would suggest that I had assembled scavenged parts with zip ties.

The driveway from the street to my garage door is 30 feet long. For 3 years I've been leaving the door open, sometimes all night. No takers.

The photo of my pedaling position shows a reason for moving the seat back. My right foot is nearing top dead center, but my knee is still doubled over a bit, beyond 90 degrees. Until the knee is open to 90 degrees, the quads would fight the glutes. Moving the seat back can allow much more torque and less fatigue.

Moving the seat also made the bike much more stable and comfortable, but bumps were hard on my hands. I thought I'd broken a bone at the base of my thumb, but it was probably a torn tendon. It took me a couple of years to realize I could add a 4" riser. That helped a lot but didn't solve the problem. I changed handlebars to change my wrist angle. Those bars also raised my hands another two inches. Problem solved.

Six days later, Radpower offered Radmissions at something like 2/3 off. I bought one and found it, too, needed alteration. That distraction meant that I didn't really evaluate the new handlebars until months later. Those bars really had eliminated my last problem with the Radrunner, that on bumpy surfaces it was hard on my hands. Those two 31-liter crates make it convenient for most things I might want to carry.

 

[spokewrench]

Take a front bin bike to the grocery or pharmacy yesterday. Steady 23 mph wind gusts to 50 mph. No battery in winter when I cannot charge LiIon outdoors. Even with 18" wide panniers (my width and located behind me) I had to ride in Low4th speed anytime I was riding into the wind. Half the distance. Needed rubber boots, dirty work coat, toolkit, to accomplish work at destination.

Was it a 23mph headwind? It looks like air drag alone would need about 400 watts to maintain 10 mph ground speed. I like motor power on some hills. In a headwind, I don't know how I ever did without it. In your place, I think I'd keep a couple of warm batteries and insulated covers handy.

 

[indianajo]

Pedal only I maintained 3-4 mph against the wind. I left the bike locked out in the cold for 7 hours while I performed an errand in the wife's (my) car. Battery would have been cold on the way home. Fortunately the wind was at my back at the end of a vigorous work day. I use the battery in milder weather to even out 10 hills at the end of the same 30 mile commute (21 miles in the car).

 

[spokewrench]

3-4 mph sounds like walking. Into the wind, maybe it would have been more efficient to walk with a backpack. I don't know how wind affects watts needed to walk, but they say walking is so efficient that a man on foot can exhaust a horse, and that's why horses were extinct on this side of the Atlantic when the Spanish arrived. On a bike, I like to depend as much as possible on the walking muscles: quads and calves.

 

[spokewrench]

No battery in winter when I cannot charge LiIon outdoors.

I bring my batteries in to charge. I've read that a charger is likely to shut off too soon if a battery is cold. I know that's the case with cold car batteries, where I can check specific gravity. The charger may shut off almost immediately.

Thermal runaway would be more dangerous indoors, but good cells and a good BMS are designed to prevent it. I think any temperature rise would be gradual. I use a timer and a wattmeter.

When I reached a destination in cold weather, I think I'd bring the battery indoors so I could use it on my way home.

 

[CanNik]

Serious question, other than businesses do any other cyclists buy cargo bikes and why, I can imagine for camping and touring they would be good

 

[indianajo]

3-4 mph sounds like walking. Into the wind, maybe it would have been more efficient to walk with a backpack. I don't know how wind affects watts needed to walk,

I am happy for you the US Army or Marines did not destroy your knees. I walk now at about 1/2 mph, previously 6. What was your draft #? Mine was 37.
You may bring your battery indoors for charging in winter. That is being outlawed in NYC and Australia in apartments. I will not be so stupid, as I own my own house & garage. Lead-acid car batteries do not catch fire if overcharged or one cell is defective.

 

[spokewrench]

Grocery shopping is one. At town speeds, a bike can get to a store almost as fast as a car, and it's much more convenient once I reach the parking lot. Sitting high on a small, maneuverable bike, I can navigate better and park close to the door. When I got home with groceries in a car, I'd grab what bags I could hold, carry them to the back door and up the steps, somehow get the storm door and inner door open with my hands full, then go back to the car two or three times to repeat the process. With a bike, I'd roll to the back door and put the bags on the shelf by the door.

Fetching gasoline is another. A self-service place with 6 pumps may look easy to use, but having a lot of cars moving at close quarters entails risk. I can see better from a bike and stay out of trouble better. If I get behind a customer who looks like he'll finish soon and another pump opens, getting to the open pump with a car can be tricky. It's quick and fun on a bike. I'd carry a 2.5 gallon can in front and a 4 gallon can behind. If I had bigger cans, I could carry them.

Hauling tools is another. I'd drive a motor vehicle to park near a job site, then carry the tools from the vehicle to the job site. I can usually get an ebike closer, sometimes parking it within arm's reach. It saves walking and reduces the possibility of misplacing a tool.

 

[indianajo]

Serious question, other than businesses do any other cyclists buy cargo bikes and why,

Are you so automobie addicted as to not being able to conceive of living without one? When I tried a grocery delivery service, all the special foods for diabetics were "out of stock". Really, buyer was too lazy to find them. At that time I had just had shoulder surgery and could not ride the bike with a sling making arm stick out rigidly front. A weeks groceries for my summer camp is 60 lb, caused 5 falls over handlebar when I tried to haul that on MTBs or a cruiser I had previously.
When I buy something from Lowes lumber the delivery charge is $75 and I have to stay within hearing distance of the front door for 12 hours or they declare me "not at home". My cargo bike will carry an 8' board or 10' pipe, a 6000 BTU air-conditioner, a 18"x36"x60" shelf rack (disassembled), a 32" television, or drag home a lawnmower after I put the handle on it. Toilet, I had to pay the price and wait for the truck. Did without one for 7 days due to busy truck. Waited all day by door from 0700 until the truck showed at 1845.
Plus all the exercise of riding a bike to stores & summer camp has pulled A1C down from 8.0 to 6.1, keeping me off insulin. Weight down 55 lb. Cholesterol down from 213 to 155. No feet or leg were amputated as my grandfather had done. Drive yourself into the nursing home. Melt the Arctic icecap, who needs it? We're suffering 6 F low next week because Arctic jet stream is weak & variable.

 

[Brendon@OEB]

I know, figured you'd be along, thought about going direct but thought I'd throw this to the wind. I thought you liked the Tern. Thanks for the other info.

I had to make a cat food run yesterday. We had pretty good snow and most of the walks were clear but there were some places that could have been tricky. The Como still has the stock tires and they worked pretty good. I was thinking on the start out that some knobs or even spikes would work well, but the smooth oem tires did really well. Both the Como and Vado are 5s, hard to replace something that's been reliable.

I rock a set of studs for winter comutting, the Como would work great with some 45nrth or Schwalbe Ice Spiker's. Studded tires aren't cheap but they last a really long time in my experience.

Yep, love the Tern, just wish it was a class 3. Excited to try the new gen 2 HSD S11 with the more powerful smart system performance motor. If you're not going to haul a person the HSD is kind of like a Goldilocks solution. Smaller footprint but big cargo capability and available in class 3 which is really nice for urban riding.

 

[spokewrench]

I am happy for you the US Army or Marines did not destroy your knees. I walk now at about 1/2 mph, previously 6. What was your draft #? Mine was 37.
You may bring your battery indoors for charging in winter. That is being outlawed in NYC and Australia in apartments. I will not be so stupid, as I own my own house & garage. Lead-acid car batteries do not catch fire if overcharged or one cell is defective.

Did see who destroyed your knees? Army dudes wore black belts, and Marines wore khaki ones.

My draft # was 316. I'm glad you asked because I didn't know until now. At the time, when I was 22, it didn't concern me because I was sure I had a 1C deferment. When I was 25, my 1C was upgraded to a 4A and I had another 1C, so I was surprised to get a notice to report for induction. Being a scofflaw, I ignored it, but now that I think about it, there was something else peculiar. The draft pool that year was 5 years younger than me, so somebody must have given me a fictitious date of birth besides ignoring my deferments.

In NYC, when an area is zoned for apartments, the zoning board restricts what businesses may be conducted from those apartments. Repairing ebikes and charging other people's batteries are commonly prohibited. That's a far cry from saying you can't charge your own battery.

The mayor is excited about a plan to use abandoned newsstands to give people charged ebike batteries in return for discharged ones. The point is to get uncertified batteries off the streets.

https://cleantechnica.com/2023/03/23/the-truth-about-e-bike-fires/
Lectric says for safety, these batteries should not be charged outdoors.