New motor: Made in Canada, 2022 Mid-drive system

[scrambler]

Ken M Said:
" I get the idea of having the sensation of riding a bike where input effort is augmented but you can accomplish this with a throttle and pedaling."

Having the ability to use both ways on my bike, I wholeheartedly disagree with that.

Coming from riding motorcycle all my life I can enjoy riding an e-bike on throttle only, but when it comes to MTB riding using pedal power, for me, nothing beats the pleasure of torque based sensing assist.
But again, how one enjoys a bike is highly personal and a matter of personal preference

 

[Ken M]

Ken M Said:
" I get the idea of having the sensation of riding a bike where input effort is augmented but you can accomplish this with a throttle and pedaling."

Having the ability to use both ways on my bike, I wholeheartedly disagree with that.

Coming from riding motorcycle all my life I can enjoy riding an e-bike on throttle only, but when it comes to MTB riding using pedal power, for me, nothing beats the pleasure of torque based sensing assist.
But again, how one enjoys a bike is highly personal and a matter of personal preference

I wanted to mention that having both throttle and PAS add-on later satisfies the interest of all/most riders. I'm just a supporter of the simple assist control that a throttle provides (sensors and programming just adds complexity that will likely reduce reliability).

For technical mtn biking there is merit to not always having to adjust the throttle to get the assist wanted but I do still question that any assist program will ever provide the desired assist in all the riding situations of mtn biking. I'm not saying that PAS is a bad idea or not a bad solution...I just tend towards the simplicity of a throttle / direct control of the assist level. As for customer expectations, I think most riders want PAS more so than a throttle.

I think the merits favor a throttle for urban mobility which brings me to another complaint I have with the 3-class legislation. Obviously Class 3 is going to be the appealing assist speed for commuting and PFBs choose to push for that class to only have PAS. Then they pushed for these Class 3 ebikes to be restricted to street and road side bike lanes essentially sharing infrastructure where every other vehicle has a throttle or gas pedal. This was brain dead and came from a group claiming to be about bike advocacy. I rant on this too much but I just can't let go of how bad the 3-class system is when the LSEB definition in HR727 was just fine for all ebikes as bikes.

 

[Deafcat]

Hey guys, I mean this with the utmost respect: this is a one-sided conversation with regards to PAS, nobody here but myself are experienced in engineering with this type of product, and I'm not really at liberty to share what's "working" about our development process.

In a few months, circumstances will change, and I'll be way more open with the details... For now, to sum it up: We have a great solution in the works, have already proven the workings out and in extensive testing, and are moving forward with a clear, internal schedule.

Will gladly respond to the rest of the questions tomorrow once I'm free, very glad to carry on these conversations and love the enthusiasm for the topics at hand. You guys are awesome.

Cheers!

 

[onlineaddy]

@Deafcat kudos to you and the team for what you've accomplished and your extraordinary professionalism in the face of some keyboard warriors who purport to know better despite not having contributed to the market/community with any creation of their own. I was also happy to have learned a bit more of the new system from your latest video:

 

[kmccune]

Man this is starting to sound like the new folding bike with never before heard of 18-inch wheels, I hope it is true and does good OTOH, the "Elio" and the gravity-powered semi, and similar things make me adopt a wait and see attitude.

 

[fauconnier]

Hey guys, I mean this with the utmost respect: this is a one-sided conversation with regards to PAS, nobody here but myself are experienced in engineering with this type of product, and I'm not really at liberty to share what's "working" about our development process.

In a few months, circumstances will change, and I'll be way more open with the details... For now, to sum it up: We have a great solution in the works, have already proven the workings out and in extensive testing, and are moving forward with a clear, internal schedule.

From the PAS I tried, there is a lot of room for improvement. So much the better if you can build a better PAS.

 

[JCofMN]

Hey guys, I mean this with the utmost respect: this is a one-sided conversation with regards to PAS, nobody here but myself are experienced in engineering with this type of product, and I'm not really at liberty to share what's "working" about our development process.

In a few months, circumstances will change, and I'll be way more open with the details... For now, to sum it up: We have a great solution in the works, have already proven the workings out and in extensive testing, and are moving forward with a clear, internal schedule.

Will gladly respond to the rest of the questions tomorrow once I'm free, very glad to carry on these conversations and love the enthusiasm for the topics at hand. You guys are awesome.

Cheers!

By "circumstances will change" I surmise you expect your patent applications will have cleared by then. I wish you all well at Biktrix and hope to learn more soon about your innovations.

 

[TomD]

Why mum on estimated pricing for PAS upgrade or did I miss it above?

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

Some nice engineering work from the Biktrix team! and an excellent presentation. At times, it can paint a different picture of E-bikes to a novice but overall I can see a lot of work has gone into it.
As soon as I saw the video, I noticed that they are using the BAC855, which is the same controller we use on our Shakti model.
That controller is capable of 1500W but we tame it down for Class 3 speeds. It can handle 750W - continuous all day long and it is a very nice controller.
I have seen some companies throw out numbers without any kind of proof. I would be very curious to see how they measured 250Nm or 300Nm.
If they have gone on to the length of taking the bike to a drag strip, I am sure putting it on a Dynamometer would be no problem.
BAC-855 in a mid-drive motor would be very capable, no doubt. I think the real engineering challenge would be to get a precise torque-sensor and make it work very reliably.
When the XD - drive side spins so fast, it makes for a ghost pedaling on the pedal side.
From my own personal experience riding E-bikes for over 60,000 miles, most people really enjoy a finely-tuned pedal-assist bike and 750W of continuous power is plenty even for a 250lbs rider.
I can see some potential use cases for heavy-cargo and 3-wheel E-bike taxis using these XD motors.

 

[scrambler]

PAS is a generic term for Pedal Assist System.
There are different ways to create a PAS.
Basic ones mainly use a cadence sensor only, or a torque sensor only.
Better ones use a mix of both like on the Bosch or Bafang ultra.

The goal is always the same, trying to figure out how much power assistance to provide based on what the rider is doing.

 

[PedalUma]

I decided to jump in because of the likes. One speed motors do not cut it around here. We have hills in the San Francisco area. Motors here need to go through gears. Hub drives are one speed to the motor. No one here wants them. We need gears. We do not need throttles. This is bike country. We invented mountain biking and mountain bikes. Ontario, Canada that is different. Saskatchewan too, flat. PAS is passe. Good bikes have torque sensors as well as cadence sensors feed into the algorithms. The system in this thread will ride like a hub drive, but with better weight distribution yet much more weight. What is funny is that a bike I made today can out climb and out last one of these over-weight, redundancy laden, one-speed motor monsters. This bike in the photo has a torque sensor. And it is a girl! A girl that can climb hills all day. Leaving a160Nm lard-butt behind in the dust.

 

[Deafcat]

We are indeed using the BAC 855 motor controller from ASI (based out of Canada as well).

These controllers are actually capable of much higher power than we're using (72V limit, 90A peak current, 70A nominal rating). Very strong feature set.


In regards to XD system versus rear hub motor of similar power:

• Central weight distribution makes the system viable for full-suspension builds, and perform better in general
• Wheel set changes are simpler
• Conventional rear wheels are used, with regular spoke sizes
• More Pedal drivetrain options (potential choice of IGH, full-range cassettes, etc)
• Easier service, since the motor isn't laced into a wheel, it can be removed and exchanged easily
• No hub motor wires to damage externally

 

[Nvreloader]

Rome
Imho,
Hunters want a strong, bullet proof, but narrow vehicle, steep side hills, thick timber, Snow, rock slides etc etc, are major problems even when walking, then add a side car,
it's a NO GO, OK for an established roadway, open and fairly flat ground, would be the cats meow.....and fun to use.
Tia,
Don

 

[Deafcat]

Will this motor work okay in mud and water? It looks vented, I could only judge from pictures and videos, so I don't know.

Also, will the sprockets available from motorcycle shop? If so, which front/rear sprocket are they using?

Nope the motor is fully enclosed, everything in the XD mid motor assembly is designed for wash-down, waterproofing and no issues with water, mud, snow, etc.

Rear sprocket is standard 6-bolt #219, 70 teeth. Front sprocket is proprietary alloy steel 219.

 

[scrambler]

I decided to jump in because of the likes. One speed motors do not cut it around here. We have hills in the San Francisco area. Motors here need to go through gears. Hub drives are one speed to the motor. No one here wants them. We need gears. We do not need throttles. This is bike country. We invented mountain biking and mountain bikes. Ontario, Canada that is different. Saskatchewan too, flat. PAS is passe. Good bikes have torque sensors as well as cadence sensors feed into the algorithms. The system in this thread will ride like a hub drive, but with better weight distribution yet much more weight. What is funny is that a bike I made today can out climb and out last one of these over-weight, redundancy laden, one-speed motor monsters. This bike in the photo has a torque sensor. And it is a girl! A girl that can climb hills all day. Leaving a160Nm lard-butt behind in the dust.

Sorry, but you are very wrong about this.
I live where you live and I have a dual drivetrain powerful e-Bike with a single gear ratio on the motor side, and I can pedal my way up the steepest hills, even on a 34T front : 11T pedaling rear gear ratio!
The proper motor with enough power and torque like 2000W+ / 200+Nm, and the proper single gear ratio, can deliver full torque on a single gear extremely well, if not better than the motors that have improper internal gear ratio because they need to go through the pedaling gear system.

PAS stands for Pedal Assist System, it incorporates ALL forms of Assist systems, not just Cadence based system, but including Torque based sensing, or better the proper programmed blend of Torque Sensing and cadence sensing, which is what Bitrix say they have in the works.
The motor Bitrix describe will be nothing like a Hub drive, it will be similar to what an LMX 64 feels like, and if you have never ridden one, you should be careful about making strong assumed and uninformed statements

 

[Deafcat]

1) Walk me through how the PAS will be attached/connected to the 1st batch of XDs.
2) How much custom programming will I be able to do? How will it work?
3) Can the XD eventually accommodate a IGH?

1, attaches externally and small cable goes thru the back into the connector board (behind service cover)
2, user programming is subject to change, we're working on something that may provide a lot more programmable functionality in first batch.
3, absolutely, so long as it's 12mm Thru Axle it can be possible for owner to make this change.

 

[Deafcat]

You are very wrong about this.

Yea I've added pedalUma to my ignores, just too much conjecture, not sure if I trust his claims and opinions.

FWIW, his comment about flat Ontario and Saskatchewan is hilarious. I'm actually born in Alberta, grew up in BC, and started real mountain biking back in the 90s. In Canada we ride the whole country.. won't be long till we're riding XDs from coast to coast (2023 with some friends, we're doing it!)

 

[Ken M]

The goal is always the same, trying to figure out how much power assistance to provide based on what the rider is doing.

I still say there in lies the problem / challenge with PAS. The programmers can only assess the parameters that are collected by the sensors (which now can include torque, cadence, speed, gear, heart rate, slope/incline. I could see programmer egos adding rider weight, wind sensing, tire pressure, motor temp, etc.) so the marketing people can brag about having more sensor wires on the ebike than any other brand). They love the rats nest of wires knowing that service $s will be better long term - drink their koolaid at your own risk. With the assistance of a good throttle any rider can get the assist level they want on demand. That just makes sense to me as I would rather programmers stick to video games and dbases.

 

[scrambler]

I still say there in lies the problem / challenge with PAS. The programmers can only assess the parameters that are collected by the sensors (which now can include torque, cadence, speed, gear, heart rate, slope/incline. I could see programmer egos adding rider weight, wind sensing, etc.) so the marketing people can brag about having more sensor wires on the ebike than any other brand). With the assistance of a good throttle any rider can get the assist level they want on demand. That just makes sense to me as I would rather programmers stick to video games and dbases.

We can theorize all we want, at the end of the day, the proof is in the pudding.
The pedal assist either provides more pleasure than the throttle assist, or it does not.
If the pedal assist provides more pleasure than a throttle assist, it is a win.

My personal experience with a few, including basic torque sensing used as throttle signal, is that it does (for me)

 

[Ken M]

I decided to jump in because of the likes. One speed motors do not cut it around here. We have hills in the San Francisco area. Motors here need to go through gears. Hub drives are one speed to the motor. No one here wants them. We need gears. We do not need throttles.

You are simply wrong. You seem to just equate a throttle as being exclusively on a DD hub motor ebike. Sure gear reduced mid-drives can climb well using the human optimized drive train but a dual drive system allows both to be optimized and to ignore that is just technically wrong. Sorry. You will hear this from others on this thread as well but probably will not change your opinion.