New Juiced Bike Model: The Scrambler, fat 20" Wheels, Class 3, Double-Seater
- Thread starter Asher
- Start date
Tora Harris
Well-Known Member
Asher
Well-Known Member
After looking at the Genze scooter online out of curiosity, I think there's a lot of promise for this kind of bike, to people who want a comfortable seat and ride, and don't want to pedal very hard.
That said, the Juiced bike doesn't have any storage or fenders, two key elements of a heavy scooter. If it had those, it could compete with scooters, especially at half the price of a Genze ($3700).
That said, the Juiced bike doesn't have any storage or fenders, two key elements of a heavy scooter. If it had those, it could compete with scooters, especially at half the price of a Genze ($3700).
J.R.
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
- City
- Piedmont Highlands
At 1100 watts, 1-1/2 horsepower this is a scooter/moped requiring DOT approved lights, brake lights, turn signals and rearview mirrors, like the Genge has. None of that stuff is cheap, it all requires testing and approval. Look at the tail light on any vehicle and you'll see the DOT stamp. I assume the scrambler is being made for off road only? Ebikes get away cheap because the federal government classified them bicycles, motor vehicles like scooters and mopeds are in a whole different class, requiring safety equipment and testing bicycles never see. I really don't understand where the scrambler fits with ebikes. It could be a cool thing for teenagers off road, private property, but the advertisements are showing on road use. I'd sure hate to see ebikes double in price because manufactures are illegally crossing the line into motor vehicles. That's where many in the government wanted ebikes to begin with. And many trail and path users would still like to call our ebikes motorcycles to get them off their trails. Prices of ebikes would easily double it manufactures had to pass DOT regs. There's still as many people against us as for us at this point in the US.
Chuck E. Cheese
Active Member
Maybe I’m just cynical, but I think it’s only a matter of time before the government starts legislating tougher lawyers regarding ebikes. They’re growing in popularity quickly and are being used for things that lots of riders wouldn’t do with a plain vanilla bike.
I have bad arthritis in my hips, and I live in a very hilly area. I couldn’t commute with my old bike. With an ebike that’s changed. Delivery people and couriers are using ebikes as replacements for cars and in my hippy neck of the woods parents are shuttling toddlers to daycare on theirs. Right off the bat I’m assuming registration and insurance are going to be mandated. When uninsured ebikers begin causing traffic accidents it will happen quickly.
Please realize I’m not advocating for regulation, but the friction between pedalbikers and cars in my state is already in the news. I don’t see any other outcome. All we can do as ebike advocates is to make sure that legislators are well informed and plead our cases in public forums.
Asher
Well-Known Member
Agree that continued production of non-street legal bikes is unwise.
That said, is there any empirical justification for the 750W limit? I totally understand and agree with speed limits (though I think 30 mph might be better for all involved than 28 mph). But I can see the 750 W as limiting, especially as the industry progresses. 750W may not be enough to sustain top speed with hills, wind, or cargo.
I know the regulations were crafted by industry, and I imagine they didn't ask for more because they had no real plans of going beyond 750W (i.e. look at how all their stuff now is 250-500W).
Despite their intentions, I think these laws are mostly dumb in the real world, because they are crafted as if almost everyone isn't already driving cars unsafely with all the death and damage that causes. I.e. where I have to bike on streets without a bike lane, the speed limit is 35 mph and cars do 40 mph.
Chuck, agreed. A funny unintended consequence though - requiring insurance could make the problem worse, if it just drove people back into a) driving that causes more crashes but go unnoticed because it's mixed in with all the other car crashes or b) those ebikers instead drive cars as uninsured motorists, which is very common among poor households.
It's also possible that as ebiking becomes more common, especially among lower income people, there will be more of a lobby against regulation that invariably brings more oversight and contact by police and such.
We also have a rapidly growing bikeshare lobby valued in the billions, which is poised to supercharge ebiking (like in Sacramento, $1 ebike rides for 15 min).
That said, is there any empirical justification for the 750W limit? I totally understand and agree with speed limits (though I think 30 mph might be better for all involved than 28 mph). But I can see the 750 W as limiting, especially as the industry progresses. 750W may not be enough to sustain top speed with hills, wind, or cargo.
I know the regulations were crafted by industry, and I imagine they didn't ask for more because they had no real plans of going beyond 750W (i.e. look at how all their stuff now is 250-500W).
Despite their intentions, I think these laws are mostly dumb in the real world, because they are crafted as if almost everyone isn't already driving cars unsafely with all the death and damage that causes. I.e. where I have to bike on streets without a bike lane, the speed limit is 35 mph and cars do 40 mph.
Chuck, agreed. A funny unintended consequence though - requiring insurance could make the problem worse, if it just drove people back into a) driving that causes more crashes but go unnoticed because it's mixed in with all the other car crashes or b) those ebikers instead drive cars as uninsured motorists, which is very common among poor households.
It's also possible that as ebiking becomes more common, especially among lower income people, there will be more of a lobby against regulation that invariably brings more oversight and contact by police and such.
We also have a rapidly growing bikeshare lobby valued in the billions, which is poised to supercharge ebiking (like in Sacramento, $1 ebike rides for 15 min).
Chuck E. Cheese
Active Member
The motor wattage rating is nonsense as it stands as well. It's not as bad as the nonsense wattage claims by cheap audio products, but there is no absolute standard that all manufacturers adhere to. Stromer used to tout their 500W motor. Now the same motor is listed as 800W in some promotional literature. a 500W internally geared hub motor will behave differently from a 500W direct drive hub motor, and differently from a 500W mid drive. Wattage isn't the only variable.
Bruce Arnold
Well-Known Member
All legalities aside, those bikes look like hella fun.
Crazyworld
Member
With the RCS I have seen over 1255 when going up hill and petaling hard, so yes I don't get the 750 walts.
Asher
Well-Known Member
Wouldn't the watts be capped at volts times Amps? 1000-1100 watts. Maybe the readout is off.
Crazyworld
Member
It might be. I have the 52V, so start up does show over 60 volts on full change
JRA
Well-Known Member
Because it has a throttle it is not Class 3 legal. PAS only at that level. Not that I think the Class ruling is good, because I don't like the way it just fits so neatly into the EU spec manufacturers, which also includes major US companies, throttles are the devil but walk buttons are ok master plan of global e bike domination. Really irks me that the Class 2 designation looks to claim that throttles will preclude pedaling when in reality lot's of e bikes today have a combination and with the PAS, especially the Torque Sensing versions, most only use the throttle for starting out or in some instances. Otherwise the PAS does most of the work. Maybe they should have a Class 1.5? Rant off.
One of the very first e experiences I had was at an Interbike dirt demo years ago and there was a guy there with a similar type of frame, but without the 4" tires and pedals, with an eTec motor. I took it for a beat and it was kind of fun but definitely more grimace than grin inducing. With as short as those cranks are I wouldn't expect many to actually use them much. Marketing "bikes" like this just muddies the legal waters and gives the naysayers something else to point to and proclaim that e bikes aren't "real bikes". Especially as they are not legal to ride on streets even much less bike paths just about anywhere in the US, Canada and the EU being advertised as 28mph capable. Which btw would scare the crap out of me as it did on the aforementioned one and I don't mind going fast. I just like to do it in a safe manner.
Indiegrabandgo doesn't seem like a good way to fund something like this for an established business that seems to not be able to keep up with their orders as it is. But hey, I never thought Sondors would get it together so there is that.
One of the very first e experiences I had was at an Interbike dirt demo years ago and there was a guy there with a similar type of frame, but without the 4" tires and pedals, with an eTec motor. I took it for a beat and it was kind of fun but definitely more grimace than grin inducing. With as short as those cranks are I wouldn't expect many to actually use them much. Marketing "bikes" like this just muddies the legal waters and gives the naysayers something else to point to and proclaim that e bikes aren't "real bikes". Especially as they are not legal to ride on streets even much less bike paths just about anywhere in the US, Canada and the EU being advertised as 28mph capable. Which btw would scare the crap out of me as it did on the aforementioned one and I don't mind going fast. I just like to do it in a safe manner.
Indiegrabandgo doesn't seem like a good way to fund something like this for an established business that seems to not be able to keep up with their orders as it is. But hey, I never thought Sondors would get it together so there is that.
Asher
Well-Known Member
Have you heard of anyone ever getting prosecuted/cited for illegal ebikes in the US? I wonder what the real risk is especially for the kinds of bikes we'd ride - something that goes ~28-30 mph, looks like a bike and not a motorcycle, and doesn't look like a home-made time machine macguyvered together.
JRA
Well-Known Member
Then your voltmeter is off because a fully charged 52v battery is 58.8v.
JRA
Well-Known Member
Better check again. This is a good article on how the laws are structured and some good points about the bad points of it: https://www.electricbike.com/california-ebike-laws/
As long as there are statutes like the Class laws in place "if" there is an incident it will be referred to. And they are not going away but getting more restrictive including the new Insurance ones in the pipeline. That is why it just makes sense to ride responsibly as the above article suggests to begin with. But all this has been discussed in other posts. Back to the Scrambler.....
Bruce Arnold
Well-Known Member
Class 3 can have a throttle, but only up to 20mph. After that you can have pedal assist up to 28mph. Well, I don't know about California law. That's NC law, but I think our law was crafted on the same model.
JRA
Well-Known Member
Do you have evidence of this Bruce? All the other states that have or are currently considering adopting the Class law structure follow the CA model to the letter. In fact a search for NC ebike law only states that they follow the Federal regs of 750w/20mph.
In any case I doubt that bikes like the Scrambler have a throttle cutout at 20mph because there is not a big enough gear range on them to be able to pedal it past 20mph and would depend on a throttle to reach that speed.
In any case I doubt that bikes like the Scrambler have a throttle cutout at 20mph because there is not a big enough gear range on them to be able to pedal it past 20mph and would depend on a throttle to reach that speed.
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