Market gap for well priced step thru folding ebike ?

[Deleted member 4210]

Unless I'm missing something, there appears to be a dearth of folding ebikes that have more standard size 20" tires that aren't fat (I.e. 4" thick), that are reasonably priced (I.e. below $1500). There are however all kinds of fat tire folders. They're all very heavy, and impractical to fold.

I'd like to see a folder that has 2" thick tires, low step thru, front suspension, 14ah battery, with integrated lights, fenders, throttle and a 350 watt hub motor and 36 volts. (500 watts and 48 volts is ok, but largely not needed for the crowd who are looking for folders that they can actually lift.) It should not weigh more than 45 lbs. Priced at less than $1500, and preferably around $1200.

Many folders weigh close to 60lbs, usually have fat tires, and are just plain clunky. Folders that one might consider svelte, often cost over $3000 and usually don't have front suspension or other important features that consumers request. Even 50lbs is not 'svelte', when it comes to 'folding' and lifting into a car, or hauling up some flights of stairs, and rigid front fork on tires that are only 1.75" wide, and 20" rims (very stiff), are not going to be comfortable for more than a few miles.

I get asked for the type of folder and characteristics I've described, fairly frequently, and those customers often end up settling for a compromise.

This seems very doable. Any OEM's willing to step up ?

 

[Ken M]

Seems to me that most folding bikes are intended for "last mile" applications (at least that was the idea behind the Brompton and others). Does anyone really need an ebike to ride a couple miles. I have never understood the marketing of the folding ebikes unless they are for storing on / in motor homes where compact size is important but they will be used as supplemental transportation when a site is located for the motor home.

I do think the best models that meet the criteria you are looking for are mid-drive non-folding 20" wheel compact ebikes.

 

[vincent]

i agree , would be very nice to see some folders like that in that price range
for me personally a folder would not be my only bike but i love having 1-2 in my stable for friends to ride and to foldup and put in the car

the evelo is much higher priced and not low step but if i had an extra 2500 i would buy one
at 1500 i would have one for sure

 

[Deleted member 4210]

Seems to me that most folding bikes are intended for "last mile" applications (at least that was the idea behind the Brompton and others). Does anyone really need an ebike to ride a couple miles. I have never understood the marketing of the folding ebikes unless they are for storing on / in motor homes where compact size is important but they will be used as supplemental transportation when a site is located for the motor home.

I do think the best models that meet the criteria you are looking for are mid-drive non-folding 20" wheel compact ebikes.

The models need to fold, and don't at all need mid drive since that adds considerable cost and complexity. The customers that seek folders but don't want fat tires and just something comfortable, are not just 'last mile', and often could be in any one or multiple of the following scenarios :
A) fit in a car trunk or SUV, to go to the many parks around Chicagoland, that are not practical to ride to, and they dont have the type of vehicle where they can easily add a hitch, or hitch rack.
B) they also have limited space to store the bike, so folding appeals a lot.
C) they would like to be able to ride 20 miles or less, but sometimes 30 miles.
D) they may take the folder with them on month long vacations and again don't want a hitch, and feel it's safer and better protected from weather if they can compactly fit the folder in their SUV, or van. Usually folders can do this, but are missing the other criteria mentioned above.
E) some want to commute by train here in Chicago, which happens a lot with all the suburban metro trains that head into Chicago. Here in my town there is a 10 year waiting list for parking space if they wanted to use the car. They could be 10 miles away on the suburban end, and maybe several miles on the business end. They dont want to risk leaving it at the station and also want to use it on both ends, so it really should be as smalls possible to bring to their office. They want the folder to be lightweight and comfortable, and would like it to serve for more than just that commute purpose, and not have to buy a second ebike for use around the home or to ride in parks, etc where they live. To not get booted off a train here, the rules are it has to be foldable. Otherwise if it's non folding, you can be kicked off the train if it's too crowded or in rush hour.
F) people who are using RV's or class C size campers, want the ebike to be comfortable to ride more than just a few miles, when they get to their destination. Something that folds is important to fit in their RV or lower outside storage bins. They express they don't want to put on a rack, because of many reasons - theft when they stop, or overnight and don't want to drag them into a hotel, don't want the hassle of covering up to protect from rain or snow, or road dirt that builds up while traveling, debt want the cost of heavy duty rack or interference from one in the back, and again want something that's easy to fold and not bulky with fat tires or weighing 60lbs.

I could list at least a dozen more scenarios and situations that customers have expressed. It's amazing the applications that consumers think of, when given the opportunity. They come in with a concept in mind, and they dont want a compromise shoved down their throat or to be 'sold to' with a partial solution, or talked into something like many appliance type sales people will do. They are smart, and know the market is close to providing what they want, as they have seen the amazing evolution and progress of ebikes in the past 5 years. Oems aren't close enough to customers to understand this, and most bike shops just want to sell whatever is easy to get and moves off the floor. People can't always describe what they know they need, but will 'know it when they see it.' That's why a lot of people like to shop local, to physically try out a lot of things.

 

[vincent]

agree with Mike on this and would love to see some 40 or 45 pound folders with 2.2 or 2.4 tires And front suspension

Don’t care if they are mid drive or hubs

Although it’s nice to have a belt drive when you have to fold something up and put it in the car, which means a mid drive if you want that feature
More money

I just went through this search and was really disappointed, ended up with a haibike radius tour which is a very cool and nice bike but it doesn’t fold

will probably end up buying a folder before spring but don’t know what I’m going to get yet

 

[Deleted member 4210]

Something like this could possibly work, but the quantities that have to be ordered are quite high, and I'm not in a position at the moment to capitalize such an operation to bring it to the US direct... The battery is concealed nicely, has 2" thick tires, has 350 watt motor, there is a front shock (single style), has rear rack, front light integrated. I would prefer something other than orange of course, but in the qty's they require could likely specify it. the weight is 54 lbs, so heavier than it probably should be. Aesthetically, its not bad looking. I'm not really interested in telling someone else how they need to re-design it, to shed some weight. There are some other designs similar to this, but they have mid drives, and the landed cost to get them here before adding any profit, is another $600 versus this hub drive. and the mid drive is not lighter than this one. As soon as you go to 500 watt motor, and 48 volt battery, the weight gets back above 60 lbs.

 

[vincent]

I would buy something like that for the right price


Bagibike has the B10 step thru with 2.1 tires on it and it weighs 55 pounds including the battery so pull the battery off to move its probably around it’s 45 which is not great but not bad

Has hydraulic brakes, Front and rear lights and turn signals etc.

But the price is 1900 and I don’t know if you have shipping on top of that

 

[Deleted member 4210]

I would buy something like that for the right price


Bagibike has the B10 step thru with 2.1 tires on it and it weighs 55 pounds including the battery so pull the battery off to move its probably around it’s 45 which is not great but not bad

Has hydraulic brakes, Front and rear lights and turn signals etc.

But the price is 1900 and I don’t know if you have shipping on top of that

Ive gotten a couple of their folders in, but had too many quality issues right off the bat. They were the fat tire versions. You can actually do a pre-order now and it's $1690. That's probably the closest to the specs I was thinking of, and they say it weighs 53 lbs. It's just that it's usually priced around $1900, and so it's a bit higher than most seem to be willing to pay for a folder. Plus it has 500 watts and 48 volts, and if it's anything like the fat tire one, it takes off like a rocket. Many of the customers looking for one of these aren't really looking for that power, speed, or acceleration. Usually they want something much less aggressive. I tend to agree with them- who needs a 500 watt motor that claims to peak at 1200 watts ? If they offered a 36 volt version, and say 11 ah battery, they could probably drop the weight 5 lbs and also the price down lower than the $1900 of this one. Again, like I mentioned usually there is a compromise. But the bagi is getting closer than most in terms of what I see consumers asking for in a folder. The lights being integrated and hydraulic brakes are a plus. In all fairness their service and responsiveness on the quality issues was prompt and courteous.

 

[Deleted member 4210]

I would buy something like that for the right price


Bagibike has the B10 step thru with 2.1 tires on it and it weighs 55 pounds including the battery so pull the battery off to move its probably around it’s 45 which is not great but not bad

Has hydraulic brakes, Front and rear lights and turn signals etc.

But the price is 1900 and I don’t know if you have shipping on top of that

They add $49 for FedEx ground shipping to anywhere in mainland US.

 

[vincent]

have had zero issues with my B26 fat and really like it
it was faster than I wanted but they swapped the controller for me and my understanding is the new controllers are all watt controlled, and start at 10% power now and go up 10% each level

where I noticed the too much power when I first got it was on the flat loop bike path in tucson, have not had the chance to take it back there and see how level one does now, hopefully I will have feedback on that in a week or so
sure it is better but it may be still pushing the speed on level one in the flats

I love the integrated lights and brake light on my B26 and the hydraulic brakes, those are hard to find

will update my thread on the bike

I also have head great service with bagibike

maybe if you suggest the lighter, lower wattage motor they would be interested
good chance if that had been an option a couple of months ago at 1400-1500 I would have bought one...

 

[Deleted member 4210]

have had zero issues with my B26 fat and really like it
it was faster than I wanted but they swapped the controller for me and my understanding is the new controllers are all watt controlled, and start at 10% power now and go up 10% each level

where I noticed the too much power when I first got it was on the flat loop bike path in tucson, have not had the chance to take it back there and see how level one does now, hopefully I will have feedback on that in a week or so
sure it is better but it may be still pushing the speed on level one in the flats

I love the integrated lights and brake light on my B26 and the hydraulic brakes, those are hard to find

will update my thread on the bike

I also have head great service with bagibike

maybe if you suggest the lighter, lower wattage motor they would be interested
good chance if that had been an option a couple of months ago at 1400-1500 I would have bought one...

Great info ! Thanks.

 

[harryS]

We have two 20" folders that I motorized. Love them for all the above reasons listed by Mike. Easy to transport. Easy to ride. Carry them inside the vehicle when travelling. A 20-30 mile ride is within their capabilities. I also put a motor on a 20" minivello - think of it as a non folding folder.A few pounds lighter without the hinges, and has no frame flex.

None of these are step-thru's and I agree that is a missing market segment. My wife has her seat all the way down, so she can stop easily, but it's still hard for her to swing a leg over the frame. I've been looking at step-thru donors.

 

[Alex M]

Seems to me that most folding bikes are intended for "last mile" applications (at least that was the idea behind the Brompton and others). Does anyone really need an ebike to ride a couple miles. I have never understood the marketing of the folding ebikes unless they are for storing on / in motor homes where compact size is important ...

Agreed. People need folders when it has to be folded for storage. Be it in a motorhome, apartment, workplace or whatever. There "appears to be" some market share of people with compact cars, though I think most of those would be able to carry a normal size bike on a rack.
It is difficult to make folder lighter than same size and quality non-folding bike (lighter materials do exist but then the price goes up). Clamps, hinges. telescopic stem, reinforced frame in critical joints etc.

Couple of miles can be a lot of walk, actually. Fast walking 2 miles @3mph = 40 minutes, squeezing throttle @15mph = 8 minutes.

 

[FlatSix911]

Here is an interesting option for a folding mid-drive bike with 20"x3" tires... $1599

http://www.bikesdirect.com/products...icycles/ebikes-electric-folding-bikes-ef3.htm

 

[antboy]

I'd say there's a few bikes out there whose compromises aren't that bad, and sub $1,500 US at the moment (after sales). A few made my short list before I ended up going with a 20x4" folding Spark Mini (didn't need a true step thru).

If the Amego Freedom had a larger battery capacity and integrated lights, it would pretty much tick all the boxes, and is just shy of 50 pounds.

Amego Freedom Review | ElectricBikeReview.com

Price: $1349.00 | Model Year: 2018 | An affordable folding electric bike with deep step-thru frame for easy mounting, reinforced downtube reduces frame flex and mid-mounted battery improves stability, three beautiful color choices

electricbikereview.com

The Qualisports Dolphin (350W motor, 36V 14Ah) 20 x 2.35" tires is only missing the rear rack, integrated rear light, and front suspension, but is pretty darn close to the specs you're looking for, and regularly sells for $1,299 (currently $1,099), though it's not a true low step thru.

The Dolphin in particular was pretty interesting to me, as the seat-post battery gives it a smaller footprint when folded for taking onto transit, or apartment/condo storage though it is 48 pounds, so forget about a three storey walk-up, and I like the slightly wider 2.35" tires on a 20" wheel diameter, without needing a full step thru.

 

[antboy]

Seems to me that most folding bikes are intended for "last mile" applications (at least that was the idea behind the Brompton and others). Does anyone really need an ebike to ride a couple miles. I have never understood the marketing of the folding ebikes unless they are for storing on / in motor homes where compact size is important but they will be used as supplemental transportation when a site is located for the motor home.

I do think the best models that meet the criteria you are looking for are mid-drive non-folding 20" wheel compact ebikes.

I know there's quite a few videos of motor home lifestyle people who love their folding e-bikes, but they're just as convenient for us city dwellers in apartments/condos as well, as long as you have an elevator, of course.

Regardless of where one lives, and their tolerance for inclement weather, an e-bike (folding or otherwise) makes two-wheeled commuting more compelling than a pedal bike, if only for the sweat effort, especially if you have to go largely up hill in one direction, and it's usually faster than transit or car.

For errands like grocery runs (as opposed to overpriced corner stores), a 30 minute walk to a preferred grocery store (or with a good deal on chicken breast ) becomes 6 minutes that are more enjoyable, especially on the way home with the panniers loaded down (easily 4+ bags worth of stuff in two 30 litre panniers). With his and her bikes, we can pack a LOT of groceries, though these days we do groceries more frequently, and buy less, because it's an excuse to ride more.

We will also shop at stores further away looking for better deals or, just because, as the extra 10 minute ride is, well, another reason to ride.

We're more likely to spontaneously meet up with friends in the city because it's more convenient from spring to late fall (of course we call first), and we might just randomly be in the area.

In short, folding e-bikes aren't just for professional nomads.

 

[BillH]

I'd like to see a folder that has 2" thick tires, low step thru, front suspension, 14ah battery, with integrated lights, fenders, throttle and a 350 watt hub motor and 36 volts. (500 watts and 48 volts is ok, but largely not needed for the crowd who are looking for folders that they can actually lift.) It should not weigh more than 45 lbs. Priced at less than $1500, and preferably around $1200.

Magnum Bikes makes the Classic Low Step which matches your criteria pretty well. Has a 36v 350 w gear hub motor, 13ah battery, 20"x2.125" tires, throttle, front suspension, fenders, rear rack, front and rear lights and weighs in at 48lbs including battery. Retail is $1499 and I see Crazy Lennys has it on closeout for $850.

 

[FlatSix911]

Magnum Bikes makes the Classic Low Step which matches your criteria pretty well.
Has a 36v 350 w gear hub motor, 13ah battery, 20"x2.125" tires, throttle, front suspension, fenders, rear rack, front and rear lights and weighs in at 48lbs including battery.
Retail is $1499 and I see Crazy Lennys has it on closeout for $850.

View attachment 43574

I agree... also take a look at the specs on the Magnum 48...

(Link Removed - No Longer Exists)
Magnum Premium 48 High Step

• Model: Magnum Bikes Premium 48 High Step
• Suggested Use: Commuting, Urban, Neighborhood
• Warranty: 1 Year

Electronic Details:

• Motor: 8Fun Rear-Mounted Geared Hub 500 watt
• Battery: Samsung 18650 – 48 volt 13 ah ( 624 wh) – Lithium Nickel Cobalt Manganese (Li-NCM)
• Estimated Charge Time / Estimated Range: 6 hrs / 25 to 55 miles
• Display Type / Readouts: Fixed Backlit Monochrome LCD / Power (Current), Battery Level (6 Bars), Speed, Assist Level (0-6), Odometer, Trip Distance, Trip Time
• Drive Modes: Cadence Sensing Pedal Assist, Trigger Throttle
• Top Speed: 24 mph with PAS (20 mph throttle only)

Bicycle Details:

• Total Weight/ Battery Weight: 55 lbs / 10 lbs
• Frame Type: High Step / Folding
• Frame Material: 6061 Aluminum Alloy
• Stem: Tool-Free Adjustable Height
• Brakes: Tektro Front and Rear Mechanical Disc with 180 mm Front Rotor and 160 mm Rear Rotor, Tektro Levers with Motor Inhibitor
• Grips / Saddle: Faux Leather / Selle Royal Wide Gel Comfort
• Stem / Handlebar: Tool-Free Adjustable Height (Three Locking Positions) / Folding, Flat
• Seatpost / Seatpost Diameter: Promax / 27.2 mm
• Tires: CST 20″ x 2.15″ / 20 in (66.04 cm ) / Kevlar Lined, Reflective Sidewall Stripe / Schrader Valve
• Folded Dimensions: 14 x 33 x 33″

 

[Deleted member 4210]

Magnum Bikes makes the Classic Low Step which matches your criteria pretty well.

View attachment 43574

It does. I've carried it. But it's heavier than it should be and the suspension is not good , bottoming out fairly easily with someone weighing around 170 lbs. I'm also not keen on their battery, which requires key to be left in to operate. The metals fenders come from the factory nearly always rubbing and requiring tedious work to get a fit. They are just too close to the tires and magnum refuses to address it. (an issue they've been told about by many dealers for 3 years at least). A lot of their other models have this issue. It's my impression the bikes were designed for tires that aren't as wide or the balloon style they offer on them. (At least 4 other vendors sell the same frame designs and product made by Leisger, so it's perhaps an issue the original oem doesn't want to address ?). The front light while integrated to the battery, cannot be turned on at the display. Easy to forget it's on during the day if used for safety reasons, and runs risk of draining battery. Those are just some of the reasons, looking for other options and why perhaps a shop like lenny's has it at such a low price.

 

[vincent]

I have never been impressed with the programming on the magnum controllers, they have always been like an on off switch to me, very unrefined

maybe that will have changed in 2020...