Luna Z1 - First impressions

[Jeffr]

I have not been able to take my Z1 out yet bc the roads are too salty and snowy in MN. I’ve been staying on my fat tire with the same bafang G510-620 mid drive motor. Listening to all the battery range posts has made me concerned and I started searching for another battery to get before the snow melts. Hard to find anything for the dengfu e22 so I reached out to Luna about acquiring another battery. They responded quickly letting me know they plan to have them available soon but not right now. I also asked about the specs/ size battery available through dengfu maybe. I have pasted a helpful response from Luna below with a link to Alibaba.com.

Luna’s email response:
You could purchase a dengfu e10 battery on aliexpress however.

I would email the seller first to make sure you get a 40A BMS inside.

You need a minimum 40A BMS for the Ultra motor.

413.85US $ 7% OFF|Dengfu E10 Electric bike battery pack 48v 17.5Ah 840Wh bafang motor frame M500 M600 ebike batteries|Electric Bicycle Battery| - AliExpress

Smarter Shopping, Better Living! Aliexpress.com

www.aliexpress.com

I received mine yesterday and I can confirm that it fits exactly with no modification. I ordered the 48v15aH for $330. The original battery is 48v17.5 aH (which is what you have noted above) costs $100 more. I realize that better cells cost more, but to me 2.5 aH wasn't worth an extra $100.
I ran it through the first cycle today and I'm going on a 25 mile trip tomorrow with both batteries. I will be able to give a good report on how far the 15aH version goes.
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[CalyMike]

I had my 3rd ride today changed the setting to 48v instead of 52v pre-programmed changed my pas to 9 levels rode mosty on pas 1 and pas 2 some pas level 3 on the steeper upgrades got 30 miles I'm fine with 30 my first ride I got about 20 miles second about 25 miles with old settings, my Frey AM600 with a 48V/21Ah riding same pace side by side gets 40 mile doesn't look as nice as the Z1 riding in the right gear with no throttle well get the best results.

 

[JRA]

What I am curious about is if you ran up against the LVC and at what voltage it cut out at? I am confident that I could also get more mileage out of my Z1 using lower assist levels and going slower to get more range but the part that is bugging me is the cut out I am getting at 46V. This is leaving too many wh's on the table and what I am interested in recouping.

On the upgrade front I recently put a Christini adapter and 36t N/W chainring on my Z1 and although it does cut down on top end speed on level ground it is still plenty fast enough. What it does though is keep the chain in the middle of the cassette more when on trails and climbing. On stupid steep stuff like we have here in spots I can now climb in mode 2 comfortably using the larger rear cogs where as before I would go to mode 3. Probably slightly slower but I am in no rush, I just want my pedal feel to be consistent. The ability to do so using a lower level of assist should net more range also.

 

[Jeffr]

What I am curious about is if you ran up against the LVC and at what voltage it cut out at? I am confident that I could also get more mileage out of my Z1 using lower assist levels and going slower to get more range but the part that is bugging me is the cut out I am getting at 46V. This is leaving too many wh's on the table and what I am interested in recouping.

On the upgrade front I recently put a Christini adapter and 36t N/W chainring on my Z1 and although it does cut down on top end speed on level ground it is still plenty fast enough. What it does though is keep the chain in the middle of the cassette more when on trails and climbing. On stupid steep stuff like we have here in spots I can now climb in mode 2 comfortably using the larger rear cogs where as before I would go to mode 3. Probably slightly slower but I am in no rush, I just want my pedal feel to be consistent. The ability to do so using a lower level of assist should net more range also.

 

[Jeffr]

To change to LVC you have to go into the controller settings using a special cable, laptop, and free software from Bafang. I used jonA smooth Frey settings provided earlier in this thread and lowered LVC to 38v. Stock is 41v but as you have noted it cuts back to “reserve” power at 46v, effectively limiting range. With LVC set at 38 v, it cuts to reserve power at 43v, which is still plenty high enough to prevent any low voltage damage to battery. Reserve power is so low it would be hard to pedal it long enough to drop the battery voltage below 40 - at least for me it would

 

[Jon A]

Oh, and perhaps this info should be stand alone on the Bafang forum for future availability? Maybe under the banner of an all things Ultra type thread? That way it would benefit all Ultra bike owners, not just the Z1 types.

Yeah, that was the original plan. I think I'll cross-post the above into the Frey thread linked above when I get a chance.

Just flashed this today. Feels sooooo much more progressive. totally different bike vs stock.

Thanks JonA for remarkable good work shared with the community. I Flashed these settings this weekend and went for along ride. The bike now rides much more like a commercial ebike (meant as a compliment), that is there is a linear responsive torque sensor and level is actual a low level of assist, while Level 5 still has good torque response. Previously it was predominantly cadence assit with very little toque assist, now it is the other way around. I also like the tapered throttle response - usually I need that to get out of a hole or start up hill, and the rapid onset "wheelie" throttle is not good for that. In short this is an excellent profile for off road singletrack. I am unable to guess yet how many more miles of range I willget with this, but im using MUCH less power on the flats so I am thinking it should increase.

I'm glad you guys like it!

I have been cutting out @ 45.5v even using mode 1 and active pedaling. I can squeeze another V out of it by off/onning the display but basically from the first cut out it is lights out from there and you had better be close to home. Hooking up to the charger I get a reading of 44.5v on the charger readout.

Yeah, the tune certainly helps for that. As mentioned above, lowering the LVC and making the lower PAS modes much less powerful should keep the bike from shutting completely off for a long time (as long as it's not a Luna battery BMS issue). I've only run the battery that low a couple of times since I got my dual battery setup working, but it was good for several miles of riding and I got the impression I could have gone a looong ways at that power level if I really needed to get somewhere. I know, power is addictive and dropping to 400 watts or so is a real buzzkill, but everything's relative. It's still close to the same power you'll get from many high-end eMTB's in "Turbo mode," so it's not nothing.

Upon charging from there the Ah returned into the battery is around 14ah which translates into 672wh. BTW to determine this I use a Grin Satiator charger which is very accurate in regards to reading voltage at time of charge and how many Ah's it charges.

I do that too, since I stopped using the Eggrider and need to figure it out somehow.... One thing though, I think it's more accurate to directly read watt hours from the Satiator as there is no single conversion factor since that depends upon starting and ending voltages. Once the battery is done charging, before unplugging it, press the "UP" button to get rid of the screen saver and it'll toggle between AH and WH. For example, the last time I measured the charges the Satiator reported 14.21 Ah and 745 Wh of charging afterward (34.6 miles, 2138' elevation).

 

[CvK]

I received mine yesterday and I can confirm that it fits exactly with no modification. I ordered the 48v15aH for $330. The original battery is 48v17.5 aH (which is what you have noted above) costs $100 more. I realize that better cells cost more, but to me 2.5 aH wasn't worth an extra $100.
I ran it through the first cycle today and I'm going on a 25 mile trip tomorrow with both batteries. I will be able to give a good report on how far the 15aH version goes.
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I just got a 17.5ah and a 12.5ah with 30A bms and they are not responding to the frame side power button. I can power up the system without the frame power button. They are also awake all the time and not acting like the stock Dengfu battery. Are you guys having the same issue with these Aliexpress batteries? Does anyone know if the lack of the frame power button will cause any issues? Someone at Luna also said something about needing a 40A BMS?

Thanks for any insight on this!


Edit: Also, the 40A bms stated by Luna makes no sense to me. Doesn’t the firmware limit the Ultra to 30A?

 

[JRA]

I fail to see why it matters? Odd though I suppose. I assume you still have to turn on the bike via the display so although the battery is "awake" with the button off it isn't like it is in there draining?

It seems there are several battery suppliers that have the correct case to fit into the DengFu frames on AliExpress. Not saying to not get one of the stock offerings but you might want to wait a bit as at least one of them is working on a specific model that is tailored better to the Z1/X2's needs including a higher amp BMS and stronger cells than the stock battery and what is on their sites currently. The Lunar New Year has it on hold for another few weeks at least however.

In the meantime it really would benefit all Z1 owners to get the programming cable together with a window's computer, which in my case took way too long, and do some tweaks to the "special sauce" stock tune that is really not special at all it seems and more like just plain old factory settings.

The FreyJon tune that is one this board is excellent but even just going in and lowering the LVC to 38v bringing the cut out down to 43v, lowering the current on modes 1 and 2 for better control at lower speeds, sizing the wheel size to 28 from 26 and dialing down the throttle current and speed limit to make it way more user friendly is worth it I feel. It is a pretty low cost way to access the stock controller for what it has the potential to do to the bikes performance overall.

 

[Nebakanezzar]

i got my new battery from Dengfu, 48v17.5ah, powers up my X2 with no problems.

 

[rtp]

i got my new battery from Dengfu, 48v17.5ah, powers up my X2 with no problems.

What's the BMS cutoff?
The Ludi X2s were supposed to handle 60A peak..
?

 

[CvK]

i got my new battery from Dengfu, 48v17.5ah, powers up my X2 with no problems.

Does it bypass the frame power button?

 

[JRA]

Does it bypass the frame power button?

You really don't have to worry about that.....I never turn off my power button on the down tube, only on the display anyway. As long as it powers up the bike you are good to go!

And I just had to change my brake pads after 300 miles of smiles. Luckily I had figured that they wouldn't last too long on a fast heavy bike with a dh slow heavy(ish) rider. Preemptively I ordered a couple doses of these:

Buy Products Online from China Wholesalers at Aliexpress.com

They work as well, if not better, than the stock pads and are much cheaper than anything you'll find elsewhere. Tip on brake wear is if your lever starts to really feel like it needs a bleed and you start to hear a more metallic sound coming from your brakes it's time to swap out the pads. Easy to do on your own with plenty of help on YouTube U. Mine still had fiber on them but not much and it was time for sure.

 

[bexamous]

I was just thinking i have not seen any complaints with the Watwagons Hydra battery life (which uses the same Dengfu E22 frame as the Z1) so I just took a look at the specs. looks like they spec a 52v battery, same as the Luna Apollo had...could the 52V vs 48V be the difference in battery life?

FWIW Hydra used to use 52v14ah ~725wH pack, Samsung 35E cells. Now they're switching over to 48v17.5ah ~840wH packs, I think still Samsung 35E.

My last two rides on Hydra:
(1) 29.21miles, 2901 ft elevation,, 2h21m moving time, 6.81/14.0ah remaning, pack at 51.2v ~3.655v/cell.
(2) 31.17miles, 3570 ft elevation, 2h42m moving time, 4.16/14.0ah remaining, pack at 48.4v ~3.458v/cell.

I'm also 220lbs which doesn't help that climbing. On ride (1) I was being extra conservative, on (2) still conserative but bit less so. I don't want to say I'm super happy with this range, but I can live with it.

When I first got bike I got much worse range, had couple packs in 20s for sure. I was pretty bummed but also realized I was so often >25mph and barely doing any work. The motor was just doing 'too much.' I want assist when needed, but when crusing on flat ground I don't need motor doing 80% of the work. Anwyays I now ride with like 3 goals: I try to cruise at 16-18mph, try to keep my heart rate around 135bpm, and stay in one (or two) gears lower than I'd usually be using.

Drag just murders battery. Keeping my heart rate up means I'm doing something, when its down in 120s I know to lower assist. And 3rd one is likely just in my mind, but I swear motor is more effiicent in lower gears.

Goal is mostly to conserve battery on flat gound so I can use it climbing hills. That said I've also ordered 48v 840wH packs to get that extra 120wH over the 52v 720wH pack. Every bit helps. I think Frey Beast is really what is needed to be wasteful in general, ~1500wH. I can let you guys know if switching to 48v packs with Hydra becomes less efficient or something.. I highly doubt it.

 

[tomjasz]

I have not been able to take my Z1 out yet bc the roads are too salty and snowy in MN. I’ve been staying on my fat tire with the same bafang G510-620 mid drive motor. Listening to all the battery range posts has made me concerned and I started searching for another battery to get before the snow melts. Hard to find anything for the dengfu e22 so I reached out to Luna about acquiring another battery. They responded quickly letting me know they plan to have them available soon but not right now. I also asked about the specs/ size battery available through dengfu maybe. I have pasted a helpful response from Luna below with a link to Alibaba.com.

Luna’s email response:
You could purchase a dengfu e10 battery on aliexpress however.

I would email the seller first to make sure you get a 40A BMS inside.

You need a minimum 40A BMS for the Ultra motor.

413.85US $ 7% OFF|Dengfu E10 Electric bike battery pack 48v 17.5Ah 840Wh bafang motor frame M500 M600 ebike batteries|Electric Bicycle Battery| - AliExpress

Smarter Shopping, Better Living! Aliexpress.com

www.aliexpress.com

Max continuous 25A. No listing as to which cells. “Korea and Japan”. I’d be suspicious. Check with Jenny Mao here on EBR. I’m certain Luna support is not recommending, they just took the time to offer a solution. Dealing with China direct can be an adventure. AND it’s holiday season in China. Lots of delays added to the Covid shipping issues. BTW there are no BMS features listed.

 

[tomjasz]

I have not been able to take my Z1 out yet bc the roads are too salty and snowy in MN.

Hello! Where in Minnesota?

 

[Jaeger]

Hello! Where in Minnesota?

I’m in Minneapolis, spend a lot of time on the city trails. Also head up north to Cayuga sometimes.

 

[Jaeger]

Hello! Where in Minnesota?

I’m in Minneapolis, spend a lot of time on the city trails. Also head up north to Cayuga sometimes

Max continuous 25A. No listing as to which cells. “Korea and Japan”. I’d be suspicious. Check with Jenny Mao here on EBR. I’m certain Luna support is not recommending, they just took the time to offer a solution. Dealing with China direct can be an adventure. AND it’s holiday season in China. Lots of delays added to the Covid shipping issues. BTW there are no BMS features listed.

I’m always suspicious, I did get a good battery on AliExpress a couple years ago. Luna says it requires 40A, kind of sitting on it and waiting for someone to recommend a vendor with quality cells.

 

[rtp]

I’m in Minneapolis, spend a lot of time on the city trails. Also head up north to Cayuga sometimes

I’m always suspicious, I did get a good battery on AliExpress a couple years ago. Luna says it requires 40A, kind of sitting on it and waiting for someone to recommend a vendor with quality cells.

Peak or continuous? (40A)

 

[tomjasz]

I’m in Minneapolis,

Winona

Luna says it requires 40A, kind of sitting on it and waiting for someone to recommend a vendor with quality cells.

Well China is on holiday. Most will be back the 10th of February. But the week of the 14th they will all be swamped.
I am so sorry for my overdue response here.
As a factory, we must have to improve production efficiency. That is why we have to work with some ebike brands and battery resellers.
Therefore, I might not repond to each of your inquiry in time and might not follow your order efficiently.
But I will keep sharing some new models of ebike battery and I am happy to receive your inquiry of some specific customized battery.

Jenny Mao​ Li-ion Battery Sales Engineer​ Shanghai Aijiu Energy Tech​ WhatsApp | Wechat | Phone:+86 132 6288 2371​ Email: [email protected] | http://shanghaiaijiu.en.alibaba.com​ No.161 Zhenye Road,Songjiang District | 201619,Shanghai, China​

Jenny posted,

Dorado 21700 505L/18inch 48V 25AH 1200WH for Ebike with <=1000W rated motor
1) 18inch Battery Length
2) 13S5P Samsung 50E 21700 Cells Pack
3) 2pin Discharge Port (6pin is optional customized)
4) DC2.1 Charging Port (Reention 3pin is optional customized)
5) 30Amp BMS for 1000W rated 1500W peak motor
6) With USB Port

As long as your current Dorado battery is about 18inch/460mm long, Dorado 25Ah is available for upgrade.

For here the most popular Dorado 48V 25Ah, hope North America riders can check stock or pre-order with them:

https://thebigknifestore.com/ @TheBigKnifeStore from Cuyahoga falls, OH, 44223
https://www.ultraebikes.com/ from Las Vegas, NV, 89123
https://www.mikese-bikes.com/ from Naperville, IL 60540
http://electricpetesbikes.com/ from Seville, OH. 44273
https://hilleater.ca/ from Salt Spring Island,BC, V8K 1N4
https://zenebikes.com/ @Ravi Kempaiah from Halifax, NS, B3M 4W4

For frame-mounted Polly battery, just as @tomjasz mentioned, california ebike has 30pcs of 48V 17.5Ah, 52V 17.5Ah and 48V 24.5Ah in stock:
https://california-ebike.com/ from San Jose, CA 95113

Will keep updating the reseller list and hope more of you to become our partner.

Sincerely appreciate all your kind support.

Jenny

 

[Nebakanezzar]

The battery I got from Dengfu looks to be 30A, and it does not bypass the battery power switch.

Here is the label on the battery