Loss of power / sduro hardnine rc 2015 (Yamaha PW)

[opaca]

Hello to everyone, I'm new here, this is my first post

Anyway, I got a second-hand Haibike sduro hardnine RC 2015, (Yamaha PW) in a fair condition. I am new to ebikes, just have it for a month. Now, the motor was running just fine, but a couple of days ago, I have noticed a significant loss of power.

I have tried to analyze the motor, there seems to be noise from the bearings, but no play, which should not be a major problem. I have ordered a new set of bearings anyway.

The bike is modded, was when I bought it, the chip inside is unmarked, cannot say which one it is, but I can say that it shows incorrect speed when the chip is plugged in (tried without it, the speedo is working fine).

Now, when I take the bike out of the house, it starts normal, but really soon, after a kilometer, it goes into that loss of power.

The trick when I hold the button on the battery to check health, says that the battery has between 200 and 300 cycles, and battery health shows 75-100%, so that should be ok.

Since I am from Serbia, there is no official support for the ebikes. To be frank, ebikes here are rare, so only a couple of bike repair shops work on these, and mainly have experience with Bosch, none with Yamaha. I have talked to them, and they have no idea what it could be...

Has anyone experienced a similar problem? Need your help! Thank you in advance!

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Just a thought: Have you cleaned the battery contacts and the battery socket in the bike with a contact cleaning fluid?

 

[Mike TowpathTraveler]

As Stefan says, check the contacts. They should be simply clean and shiny. Yamaha does not recommend any kind of grease on the contacts. There should be no burn marks of any kind on either male or female terminal lugs.

Aside from the bearings (and Performance Line Bearings in England leads the world in bearing replacement and advice for the Yamaha and Bosch mid drive motors), there is unfortunately nothing else available on the market that can be used as repair parts for our motors. In other words, if there is an internal problem diagnosed, the solution by the manufacturer is to toss the motor into the garbage and buy a new replacement at a very high cost. A poor way to go about doing business, if you ask me, as most people want to try and fix their equipment before disposal in the trash. Long term, I can't see OEM manufacturers like Yamaha and Bosch holding onto this way of thinking. But we will have to see.

If this were my bike, I'd look at doing the easiest things first before going inside that motor and replacing the bearings. First off when "starting" the bike, does it display an error code on the display?.......... Is an error code on display when this loss of power occurs?......... Have you changed the display's internal battery? (I had to display mine after about 2 years of ownership-2016 Haibike Full FatSix)..........Is the spoke magnet clean of any metal debris?........Does it line up with the lower stay sensor?.........outside wire jackets on the controller, display and magnet sensor all intact or torn?...........how tight is that rear thru axle? Too tight?........With the rear tire removed, how easily does the rear hub bearings spin?..............Have you permanently removed that speed tuner from the bike? If so, do you still encounter this loss of power?.........When the loss of power occurs, does the power meter on the left side of the display screen show any output as it does when it is riding under power normally?..........

Look at the easy things first and take them out of the equation, before splitting that case open. Here is the Yamaha X94 Service Manual, which does an excellent job describing the system operation and troubleshooting and repair techniques. Link: https://www.manualslib.com/manual/975488/Yamaha-X94-Series.html#manual

When taking out that speed tuner, inspect carefully the terminal ends in each plug for any abnormality. Inspect to see if any wire was pinched between the motor casing and the lower bracket die cast housing. I have found with my Pear Tune speed tuner, space is very tight when installing it above the motor and it is very easy to pinch a wire when setting the motor back up into position.

Do not feel bad about little help in your home country. Here in the US, there is no one I am aware of via this forum, who has the capability and the stock repair parts on hand to troubleshoot and repair these motors. And again, that is because Yamaha does not carry repair parts to fix these motors out in the field, either by a bike shop or the bike owner.

Long stuff to consider, but let us know what you find. If each person reports their findings and what they did to make repairs, it helps the entire community of Yamaha drive motors everywhere.

PS: Several years ago on a ride, I lost assist and my display was acting up. Turned out to be a loose spoke magnet, which was easily tightened up and I was back in business. That is basically the only issue I've had with my own Yamaha PW drive system. May your issue be equally as simple to fix.

 

[Mike TowpathTraveler]

One final note: Your LCD display has contacts with it's base. You want to inspect them and ensure they are clean.

 

[opaca]

Wow, thank you for the comprehensive replies!

Unfortunately, I will be traveling tomorrow and will get back to this, when I return after Christmas. I can add a couple of replies though:

About the battery contacts, got to wait till mid-January for my brother to get back, he's got the keys to the battery in his apartment, from when he borrowed the bike last time... What should I use to clean with? WD40? Or?

Ordered the performance line bearings kit and the grease, due to arrive in a couple of days. I will bring the motor to a friend who owns a big auto garage, he has all the tools required for the job, and we will go at it with the video they provided. The folks at PLB also suggested to me to clean everything inside the motor thoroughly.

About the magnet:
It is aligned right. But, someone stole the original magnet from the bike (or it fell off), so I bought a replacement at Decathlon. No official Yamaha support in Serbia, so I could not get the original one, but it has worked so far. Should I buy the original? My brother is in Germany now, he can bring it to me when he comes.

LCD contacts what to use for cleaning? They do not seem dirty though.

Error codes, I have not seen any.

Display battery, I have not changed it, I have one spare I think, will change it.

Outside jackets of cables seem intact.

It seems that the meter shows less power output, though I am not sure.

Speed tuner, it is still inside. I have ordered the speedbox tuning to replace it, my brother is bringing it My prime suspect is that, so that is why I ordered the speedbox. Will also check all the wiring.

Rear-axle, well the wheel seems to spin nice, but I am not sure how to remove the wheel myself, I might need to check that in a bike shop.

I heard also only great things about Yamaha motors. Even the repair guys that do Bosch in Serbia told me that it is a good thing that I bought a Yamaha ))

Thank you again for the replies, and will let you know when I return, what can we cross out from the list of suspects

Cheers!

 

[Mike TowpathTraveler]

Wow, thank you for the comprehensive replies!

Unfortunately, I will be traveling tomorrow and will get back to this, when I return after Christmas. I can add a couple of replies though:

About the battery contacts, got to wait till mid-January for my brother to get back, he's got the keys to the battery in his apartment, from when he borrowed the bike last time... What should I use to clean with? WD40? Or?

Ordered the performance line bearings kit and the grease, due to arrive in a couple of days. I will bring the motor to a friend who owns a big auto garage, he has all the tools required for the job, and we will go at it with the video they provided. The folks at PLB also suggested to me to clean everything inside the motor thoroughly.

About the magnet:
It is aligned right. But, someone stole the original magnet from the bike (or it fell off), so I bought a replacement at Decathlon. No official Yamaha support in Serbia, so I could not get the original one, but it has worked so far. Should I buy the original? My brother is in Germany now, he can bring it to me when he comes.

LCD contacts what to use for cleaning? They do not seem dirty though.

Error codes, I have not seen any.

Display battery, I have not changed it, I have one spare I think, will change it.

Outside jackets of cables seem intact.

It seems that the meter shows less power output, though I am not sure.

Speed tuner, it is still inside. I have ordered the speedbox tuning to replace it, my brother is bringing it My prime suspect is that, so that is why I ordered the speedbox. Will also check all the wiring.

Rear-axle, well the wheel seems to spin nice, but I am not sure how to remove the wheel myself, I might need to check that in a bike shop.

I heard also only great things about Yamaha motors. Even the repair guys that do Bosch in Serbia told me that it is a good thing that I bought a Yamaha ))

Thank you again for the replies, and will let you know when I return, what can we cross out from the list of suspects

Cheers!

1. Battery Contacts: Refer to the X94 manual. Yamaha does not recommend grease of any kind on the battery contacts. In 3 years of ownership, I've not done nothing to my contacts and they remain clean and shiny as the first day, with no burn marks indicating some internal wiring issue.

2. Display Battery: Just buy a brand new one to ensure you are providing full power voltage.

3. Performance Line Bearings and cleaning inside the motor: Do inspect the motor to ensure the previous owner did not pedal his bike into the river or ocean. But again....DO refer to the X-94 manual and you will read that Yamaha does not at all recommend spraying the torque sensor with any kind of electrical contact cleaner, let alone the circuit boards cannot get any dirt or grease on them. Care is the order of the day when you go inside the motor......like a heart surgeon opening up his patient!

4. Spoke magnet: It certainly cannot hurt to just go with a new, OEM manufacturer Yamaha spoke magnet. At this point, we don't know the strength of the original Yamaha magnet compared to this replacement.

5. LCD contacts: If they are clean, then leave them be.

6. Speed Tuner: At this point, get it all out of there, hook the OEM plugs back together and see what happens. My PearTune is recently installed by myself back in October. It reads perfectly in MPH, (which is how we read speed here in the USA). There are no other compromises with Pear Tune versus some of those other tuners from what I have read. Something to think about......

7. Rear Axle: Well, sooner then you think, you are going to have a flat tire. So best to look at some youtube videos now, to learn how to remove the rear wheel & fix a flat tire instead of when you get that flat tire, the sun is almost down, the temperature is dropping, you're 7 miles from home and you left the cell phone at home!!!!! But in the meantime, you just want to ensure the bearings are spinning in the hub as freely as they should and that your thru-axle that holds the tire/rim to the frame is not torqued down, super tight.

Good luck!

 

[opaca]

Hi guys, just before I leave for my trip, I decided to go through the X94 manual and found out that I can read Error codes that were recorded.

There were two: 26 and 91. I have read about them, both seem serious, but I have reset them.

And before trying out the bike to see, I inspected it and found out that one of the three bolts holding the motor to the frame was loose (the first one from the front). It seems that the bolt hole thread is a bit eaten up and it cannot be bolted right. Have taken off the plastic washer that says 22nm, and bolted it further and it is secure now. I Will see what to do about it later, this was just for the test.

Tested the bike, and works fine now. No error codes when I came home. It was a short ride though, only 3-4 km, but still, it behaves normally.

I will let you know further when I come back from my trip if the problem comes up again. I have no idea what have I done to make it work.

I also did all the diagnostic tests that were in the manual, and everything seems to be fine.

 

[Mike TowpathTraveler]

Great followup info, Opaca. After return from your trip, replace that little watch battery in your LCD display. Spoke magnet as we talked about. And check around with a trusted local bike shop or machine shop, someone who has experience in a product called a Heli-Coil (United States link here, I am sure there is the same or equal product in Europe from which you can buy: https://www.stanleyengineeredfastening.com/brands/optia/heli-coil), which is used for damaged threads beyond repair, using a threaded insert that matches the factory mounting bolt thread size and pitch. It is a permanent repair and works great in all types of metal applications). Ensure the bolts are torqued to the standard noted on those concave washers. I used a thread locking compound called Loc-Tite on my motor mount bolts to ensure absolutely that the bolts will not loosen at any time. The thread locking compound I use is the type that is made to allow loosening of the bolt without using torch heat; just standard hand tools.

One of your codes indicates a possible bad torque sensor. As you know now, internal parts apart from the bearings, are not available for individual sale to people like us, even shops. So let's hope these little repairs we detailed here will cure the power cut out on your Haibike.

 

[opaca]

Hi everyone, I'm back with updates

So it seems that the problem comes and goes without any pattern that I can notice (outside temp, humidity, battery level etc).

I have done the following since the last update:

1. The new OEM Yamaha magnet is on the bike / no impact on the problem

2. The battery contacts... My brother finally came back and brought me the keys, and on inspection, the contacts seem to be very damaged, so we might be onto something here. I have cleaned them with rubbing alcohol first and then with contact spray and this is how they look after that. I would say not good and that they might need replacing. What I can say further is that Error no 26 came back once again after I have wiped the errors so it seems that maybe these contacts are making havoc. As I can see this cable is around 15 eur, but AGAIN I have to wait from Germany.

3. The speed hafler is out, and SpeedChip is in. My god what a difference (when the bike is performing normally ) I AM LOVING IT

4. The thread problem was solved another way, a rather neat and cheap solution, that a guy from the hardware store purposed: I found an exact screw just 1 cm longer, and put a nut (the one that has a rubber band that cannot unscrew itself) on the other side. Worked like a charm. Here's a photo:

5. The Performance bearings have arrived a couple of days ago also, but I need to get some time with my very busy mechanic friend to do the overhaul there.

Cheers!

 

[Mike TowpathTraveler]

Great job, Opaca! That's a pretty crusty layer on the battery terminals. How does the terminals within the battery look? As you know in reading the X9 manual, Yamaha does not recommend any kind of lubricant on the terminals. On my Haibike Full FatSix after 3 years plus of high mileage, the terminals remain as clean and bright as the day I bought the bike.

For parts, another source in Europe is Ridewill in Italy. Here is the part you need, which also appears to have a 5 day wait: https://www.ridewill.it/p/en/yamaha-yam264829-battery-engine-cable-e-bike-for-x942-x943/264829/

If you type in "Yamaha Ebike" in Ridewill's search, you will find lots of good repair parts for the PW. Nothing internal mind you, as nothing is available for sale to the public by Yamaha for our motors, but still, lotsa good stuff. Also type in "Haibike" and scroll down for the parts available. They even list the chain sprocket spiders for our bikes.

I purchased 2 sets of Haibike battery stickers for my new Yamaha 500wh batteries through Ridewill and got them here in the USA in about a week and a half's time. I highly recommend this business.

Good luck!

 

[Nick S]

I purchased 2 sets of Haibike battery stickers for my new Yamaha 500wh batteries through Ridewill and got them here in the USA in about a week and a half's time. I highly recommend this business.

Mike, not to veer off topic on this thread, but do you mind my asking where you purchased your new Yamaha 500wh batteries? My bike came with a 400wh battery, and I'm interested in upgrading at some point in the near future. I'm located in the Pacific Northwest, but hopefully these would be available mail order. It's great to know there's a source for the Haibike decals, too!

Thank you!

 

[Mike TowpathTraveler]

Mike, not to veer off topic on this thread, but do you mind my asking where you purchased your new Yamaha 500wh batteries? My bike came with a 400wh battery, and I'm interested in upgrading at some point in the near future. I'm located in the Pacific Northwest, but hopefully these would be available mail order. It's great to know there's a source for the Haibike decals, too!

Thank you!

Nick, I sent you a PM

 

[opaca]

Hi guys, thank you for the answers.

So the contacts on the battery itself seem to be fine. maybe some discoloration but in general undamaged, unlike the 3 pins on the bike.

(not the greatest picture but it works)

The Ridewill.it has a shipping cost of 45 EUR to Serbia, which is nonsense. I found the cable in Germany for 30 EUR including shipping to Serbia, so I have ordered it today.

the website that I purchased from is called elektrofahrrad24.de, they seem to be a good resource also.

I will keep you guys updated as soon as it arrives.

 

[opaca]

So an update here after a few months:

Just the cleaning the contacts has fixed the issue. But, just in case I have replaced them anyway. Now it works as it should

Thank you for all advices! Cheers

 

[Egre]

Hello, seems to be a lot of expertize on this thread so I’d like to share my problem with you.
I have a Haibike Sduro Trekking RC 2016.

I have electrical issues probably after cleaning my bike with a garden hose. I left the bike to dry for a a few days, and the bike kind of worked when On vacation.

Coming back the bike is shutting down. When I push the on/off button the entire display lights up as normal, but after approx 3 seconds it shutts down. No error code is displayed. I had an old chip installed snd thought maybe that was the source of the problem. Hence I removed the chip and rewired as original. The problem is still there…display lights up, but shuts completely down after a few seconds after I remove my finger from the button.
Any advice please