Looking for a dedicated mid-drive for distance

[antboy]

My current e-bike, which I'm keeping, is the Spark Mini, the 20" fat folding Mule, which I still love for grocery getting and in-town and tooling around.

I'm looking for a second e-bike that will be more of a distance rider, as I want to do some approx 100km day trips that would include stretches where I can ride with the motor off. With 2" wide tires, I don't feel the need for suspension, as I've done such rides (a few years ago) with a pedal bike (Specialized Sirrus Sport with carbon fiber forks and seat stays), with no issues except aching legs.

I've done a fair amount of test riding, with additional help from the Toronto E-bike Expo a few weeks back, and I think I've narrowed it down to the following...

Gazelle CityZen T9 (Bosch Performance Line and 500wh battery) $3299 Cdn - if there's room on the bike, I would probably move up to 2" wide tires
Giant EXPLORE E+ 2 STA (SyncDrive Sport and 500wh battery) $3499 Cdn
OHM Discover (Shimano STePS E6100 and 500wh battery) $3799 Cdn

I can push my budget higher than that, to say $6000 Cdn, but for that price I'd want an IGH.

The Turbo Vado ALMOST made my list, but after a lot of research (reviews, videos, reading here) it seems a little over-priced for what you get.

So the two questions/unknowns are:

I was considering the Momentum Transcend E+ at $3199, as I like the idea of an internal geared hub, but it's bare bones (no fenders, rack, or integrated lights). This is mostly fine, because I can choose from after market options, but can integrated lights be added by the shop (or DIY)?

My other question is regarding the Shimano STePS E6100. I didn't have that on my list when I was at the E-bike Expo for some reason, but while it has less torque than some of the others, the range reports seem impressive, especially for someone who will be in Eco mode a lot.

Anyone with E6100 experience re range and feel compared to any of the other mid-drive motors? The OHM Discover review on EBR is what piqued my interest in Shimano as an option.

 

[smorgasbord]

Except for the expensive Rohloff, I would not recommend an IGH for a bike on which you expect to do any significant pedaling without motor assist. I had a bike with the Nuvinci enviolo IGH and its efficiency was noticeably lower than external gearing, and pedalling without motor assist was essentially for very short term use, or only on downhills.

 

[antboy]

Yeah, I don't have a lot (any) experience with IGH, except reading that Rolhoff is the Rolls Royce of IGH.

Does anyone know much about the Shimano 5-speed IGH designed specifically for e-bikes? I know their product page touts it as more durable for e-bike use, but I haven't seen any reviews of it.

 

[steve mercier]

My current e-bike, which I'm keeping, is the Spark Mini, the 20" fat folding Mule, which I still love for grocery getting and in-town and tooling around.

I'm looking for a second e-bike that will be more of a distance rider, as I want to do some approx 100km day trips that would include stretches where I can ride with the motor off. With 2" wide tires, I don't feel the need for suspension, as I've done such rides (a few years ago) with a pedal bike (Specialized Sirrus Sport with carbon fiber forks and seat stays), with no issues except aching legs.

I've done a fair amount of test riding, with additional help from the Toronto E-bike Expo a few weeks back, and I think I've narrowed it down to the following...

Gazelle CityZen T9 (Bosch Performance Line and 500wh battery) $3299 Cdn - if there's room on the bike, I would probably move up to 2" wide tires
Giant EXPLORE E+ 2 STA (SyncDrive Sport and 500wh battery) $3499 Cdn
OHM Discover (Shimano STePS E6100 and 500wh battery) $3799 Cdn

I can push my budget higher than that, to say $6000 Cdn, but for that price I'd want an IGH.

The Turbo Vado ALMOST made my list, but after a lot of research (reviews, videos, reading here) it seems a little over-priced for what you get.

So the two questions/unknowns are:

I was considering the Momentum Transcend E+ at $3199, as I like the idea of an internal geared hub, but it's bare bones (no fenders, rack, or integrated lights). This is mostly fine, because I can choose from after market options, but can integrated lights be added by the shop (or DIY)?

My other question is regarding the Shimano STePS E6100. I didn't have that on my list when I was at the E-bike Expo for some reason, but while it has less torque than some of the others, the range reports seem impressive, especially for someone who will be in Eco mode a lot.

Anyone with E6100 experience re range and feel compared to any of the other mid-drive motors? The OHM Discover review on EBR is what piqued my interest in Shimano as an option.

Those three bike you mention all have good specs. Where you can get good servicing near you may be the deciding factor.

 

[indianajo]

My sturmey archer S80 IGH slowed me down about 15% unpowered compared to the 7 speed shimano derailleur that comes on a Pacific Quantum MTB. It has 8 planetary gearsets whirring around at all times versus 11 for the rolloff. the 5 speed shimano IGH will have 5 planetary gearsets.
I hope you rode the Bosch performance line bike unpowered while you had the chance. Bosch is reputed to not have a slip clutch, so you drag the motor with your feet. OTOH Shimano steps is reputed to have one so you don't.
I ride a geared hub motor bike since the direct drive hub motor I had previously drug unpowered like being in 2 higher sprockets. I ride unpowered most of the time, saving the power for >12 mph headwinds or trips when I want to ride more than 25 miles. Aerobic exercise keeps my lungs in good shape for pneumonia (which I've had many times) with excess capacity. But I don't need 6 hours exercise into a 25 mph headwind like September 2018. My distance is fixed, the speed depends on the weather.
Most of the magnum bikes with rear geared hub have fenders and a book rack. I like my hub motor on the front though, since I need to carry 60 lb supplies on the back 30 miles out to my summer camp. I think there should be a dealer in Toronto.
I like having a snap on headlight I can charge with a micro-USB charger. If it fails another 80 lumen one is $30-40. An integrated headlight, you buy parts (switches) from the dealer. I like having a generic battery on a converted bike too, since in 4-5 years when it loses capacity any other generic battery will do. Bosch batteries in particular are really pricey, others are ~2 times what a generic battery is. In Canada you can buy conversions from grin tech. Conversions require a drill motor, drill index, vise in a dirty shop to make brackets. Safety glasses, a supply of machine screws and angle stock. A klein or ideal crimp tool for bullet or spade lugs. You see my controller hanging under the seat on SPAM can lid brackets in the picture. The battery is the green wedge on the front in angle aluminum and plastic foam insulators. My conversion was $840 for 17.5 AH 48 v 1200 W over the $1700 bike, plus panniers & 2 leg stand which bought me free freight from CA. Have 4000 miles on the motor, 5000 miles on the bike, no new chains.

 

[antboy]

Those three bike you mention all have good specs. Where you can get good servicing near you may be the deciding factor.

On that front, it's not really a factor, in a good way.

Regardless of which go with, I'm a 20ish minute walk from official Trek and Giant shops, as well as Amego (where I'd get the Gazelle from).

It also turns out that an LBS I really like for mechanical servicing called Dream Cyclery, is an authorized STePS dealer, so I'd trust them.

 

[antboy]

My sturmey archer S80 IGH slowed me down about 15% unpowered compared to the 7 speed shimano derailleur that comes on a Pacific Quantum MTB. It has 8 planetary gearsets whirring around at all times versus 11 for the rolloff. the 5 speed shimano IGH will have 5 planetary gearsets.
I hope you rode the Bosch performance line bike unpowered while you had the chance. Bosch is reputed to not have a slip clutch, so you drag the motor with your feet. OTOH Shimano steps is reputed to have one so you don't.

That's a good point. I DID test the Allant+ 8, and that didn't have any noticeable drag unpowered. It pedaled quite smoothly I thought. It's a Performance Line CX though, while the CityZen is just the Performance Line. IIRC the smaller chainring suggests that it might be more draggy.

I was thinking about another hub motor, and if anything happened to my Mule, I'd replace it with another hub bike, but I think a mid-drive with longer range, and minimal motor drag is what I'm looking for.

I've been doing research for the past few weeks, and at one point was drawing up a list to convert a Specialized Roll Elite, because that's a nice mechanical bike. I was considering the Grin Tech for a rear hub, or possibly a Bafang BBSHD or BBS02, since others have done that conversion.

I THINK (but I could be wrong) that for a 100km (60 mile) day ride, a "brand name" mid-drive makes more sense, and less likely to be a range issue in comparison.

Of course, I have zero experience riding Bafang mid-drives, and if anyone can chime in on the issue, I'd re-examine the idea. I'm not in a super-rush, as trekking weather is still a month or two away.

 

[indianajo]

IIRC the smaller chainring suggests that it might be more draggy.

Drag comes from pulling the motor with your feet, not the size of the sprocket. Some mid drives have a one way clutch (yamaha, steps) most don't. I have a 32 front and 11 rear sprocket on my 3x8 speed bike, neither sprockets is a problem. DD hubs have the magnets pulling on the motor poles unpowered, as there is no slip clutch in them. Grin is selling a GMAC which is a MAC geared hub with no slip clutch, so you get regenerative braking. Also drag when you ride unpowered.
I hope to ride 80 miles some day, 40 out unpowered, 40 back powered after the concert. After I sew a foam lined seat pad; my hips start hurting after 5 hours as is. The hills I ride take a lot of watt hours to get up though, I hit red light at 30 miles & 75 th hill mostly. Flatter terrain like around Toronto should stretch out range a lot.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

The Turbo Vado ALMOST made my list, but after a lot of research (reviews, videos, reading here) it seems a little over-priced for what you get.

You haven't ridden it, have you?

 

[antboy]

You haven't ridden it, have you?

Specialized was the only one I was looking at originally, and I tried the Vado and the Como (when I thought I wanted something more relaxed). I really liked the easy ride of the Como, and almost forgot the purpose of the new bike.

Instead of a $5K impulse buy, I decided to shop around. I'm hard pressed to see the $2K difference in value between the Vado Step through $5999 and Giant Explore+ 2 STA at $3499.

Is the Specialized motor on the Vado 5 THAT much better than, say, the Explore?

 

[Stefan Mikes]

90 Nm torque and completely noiseless. For me it meant very much. I, however, understand the financial consideration of yours. You see, I bought my Vado 5.0 for only 5100 CAD (equivalent).

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Come think to it @antboy I would opt for the Giant. The Gazelle has Bosch Gen 2 motor and no suspension fork. The Giant has not only a good suspension fork but also a modern Yamaha motor.

P.S. The Gazelle has the Purion display which is no good. Gazelle website gives almost no specs on the components; the Giant site tells you everything, for example about the Deore XT derailleur which is very good. You will probably get a good support from Giant LBS in Toronto.

I know nothing about the OHM.

 

[smorgasbord]

I THINK (but I could be wrong) that for a 100km (60 mile) day ride, a "brand name" mid-drive makes more sense, and less likely to be a range issue in comparison.

Of course, I have zero experience riding Bafang mid-drives, and if anyone can chime in on the issue, I'd re-examine the idea. I'm not in a super-rush, as trekking weather is still a month or two away.

For a 60 mile ride, you're going to need a lot of battery. Here's a thread on efficiency. Note that one person gets 40-50 miles on his 500 wh battery while another 9.5-27 miles. Depends not only on the bike, but how you ride and what kind of hills you climb.

The "brand name" mid-drives are not noticeably more efficient. Maybe since they're underpowered you end up doing more pedaling and so you have a long range?

 

[Stefan Mikes]

The "brand name" mid-drives are not noticeably more efficient. Maybe since they're underpowered you end up doing more pedaling and so you have a long range?

As I own both types, my observation is the mid-drive motor can cope with adverse wind and inclination far better than the hub motor of the same nominal power. The acceleration of the mid-drive is better. I do agree that the range depends on too many factors. While some Forum friends can make 100 km on a single battery for their combined conditions on the same bike I own, I can only make half of that distance.

Please be aware @antboy you may discover you'll need a spare battery. For that reason, invest in a bike with a popular and easily accessible spare battery. Again, I am for the Giant.

 

[tomjasz]

BBS02B motors can be very stingy. And Bafang mid drives are more powerful. The best source of data is ebikes.ca Motor Simulator.

 

[FlatSix911]

So the two questions/unknowns are:

I was considering the Momentum Transcend E+ at $3199, as I like the idea of an internal geared hub, but it's bare bones (no fenders, rack, or integrated lights). This is mostly fine, because I can choose from after market options, but can integrated lights be added by the shop (or DIY)?

My other question is regarding the Shimano STePS E6100. I didn't have that on my list when I was at the E-bike Expo for some reason, but while it has less torque than some of the others, the range reports seem impressive, especially for someone who will be in Eco mode a lot.

Anyone with E6100 experience re range and feel compared to any of the other mid-drive motors? The OHM Discover review on EBR is what piqued my interest in Shimano as an option.

I have 2 Shimano Steps E6000 in my household and they consistently get the best range of all my bikes.

The motor engagement is smooth and quiet with adequate power for climbing steep hills in my area.

Take a look at the BD models with the new Shimano Steps E5000 system designed for maximum range.

http://www.bikesdirect.com/products...es/ebikes-electric-bikes-elite-eadventure.htm

2020 Motobecane Shimano Electric MidDrive $1699

http://www.bikesdirect.com/products...cycles/ebikes-electric-bikes-elite-eurban.htm

2020 Motobecane Shimano Electric MidDrive $1799

 

[steve mercier]

Yeah, I don't have a lot (any) experience with IGH, except reading that Rolhoff is the Rolls Royce of IGH.

Does anyone know much about the Shimano 5-speed IGH designed specifically for e-bikes? I know their product page touts it as more durable for e-bike use, but I haven't seen any reviews of it.

I know two fellows who have had trouble with the Rohloff. You can ask them yourself .They are Alaskan and David Berry.

 

[antboy]

As I own both types, my observation is the mid-drive motor can cope with adverse wind and inclination far better than the hub motor of the same nominal power. The acceleration of the mid-drive is better. I do agree that the range depends on too many factors.

Please be aware @antboy you may discover you'll need a spare battery. For that reason, invest in a bike with a popular and easily accessible spare battery. Again, I am for the Giant.

It's funny, but the Giant is the least exciting in my list, but it's looking to be the most practical. The Gazelle just LOOKS so nice and well-thought out, and I appreciate that.

I have 2 Shimano Steps E6000 in my household and they consistently get the best range of all my bikes.

The motor engagement is smooth and quiet with adequate power for climbing steep hills in my area.

Take a look at the BD models with the new Shimano Steps E5000 system designed for maximum range.

I was curious about STePS largely because of the range reports.

How do they feel when pedaling without assist?

I looked at BD as an option, but once I factor in the conversion to CDN, shipping and whatever customs & duties add, I'm pretty close to the price of the OHM Discover. It's kind of like ordering a Frey bike in that manner.

 

[steve mercier]

Come think to it @antboy I would opt for the Giant. The Gazelle has Bosch Gen 2 motor and no suspension fork. The Giant has not only a good suspension fork but also a modern Yamaha motor.

P.S. The Gazelle has the Purion display which is no good. Gazelle website gives almost no specs on the components; the Giant site tells you everything, for example about the Deore XT derailleur which is very good. You will probably get a good support from Giant LBS in Toronto.

I know nothing about the OHM.

The Purion is much better than the display on my sister- in-laws' Giant Liv Amiti which lacks information. My wife has the Purion and has never had a problem with it after 8000 km. The Ohm bikes are good and it is a CDN company. I think all 3 bike models are good choices. For personal appeal ,I like the Ohm best. Just a wee bit cooler than the Gazelle PLUS it has that front shock. Next I like the Gazelle. I have 18000 km on a Bosch Performance gen 2 motor with not one issue so far but it is tough to pedal with the power off. The Giant has lots of great qualities such as lots of power and little resistance ,but it just does not seem quite as stylish somehow and the display is minimal.

 

[FlatSix911]

It's funny, but the Giant is the least exciting in my list, but it's looking to be the most practical. The Gazelle just LOOKS so nice and well-thought-out, and I appreciate that.

I was curious about STePS largely because of the range reports. How do they feel when pedaling without assist?

I looked at BD as an option, but once I factor in the conversion to CDN, shipping and whatever customs & duties add, I'm pretty close to the price of the OHM Discover. It's kind of like ordering a Frey bike in that manner.

Very little drag on the Shimano Steps system compared to Bosch.
BD now seems to have a workaround for Canadian customers... no affiliation.

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