Lithium-Ion Batteries and others

Urbancowboy

Active Member
Region
Canada
Last week a Fire Chief in a nearby Community had a new Lithium polymer Battery which was removed from the unit after it run out of charge exploding. The Chief reported it was removed from his Air Soft Gun then just set on the Floor of his Garage then 15 minutes later it self detonated and exploded then started on Fire. Luckily it was noticed by his Spouse because of the smoke alarm otherwise the House could have burned down.

Now we have these Batteries everywhere including Computers, eBikes, cell Phones, Flashlights the list goes on. I don't scare easily but this got me thinking what I could do within reason to prevent this happening in our Household.

I already got myself a metal Box into which I place my eBike Batteries when recharging. I think I will also have a chat with my House Insurance provider to be sure that Fire damage started by Batteries is included in the Policy.

Any other thoughts will be appreciated.

Cheers
 
A while back this convo came up and I decided to count the number of rechargeable lithium ion batteries I had in my house.
The number was amazing and revealing, from old phones to ebikes, and garden tools, guitar wireless, and all kinds of crap.
I think I ended up close to or over 40 batteries.
I don't know how big an Airsoft battery is, and even a small one can torch a place, but please do take an inventory in your house.
You may be surprised...
 
Maybe the Fire CHief's kid drove over the battery with the car, The airsoft battery is Li-ion pouch cells, probably the most riskiest kind. It's all plastic.. There's no protective circuity inside to protect it.
 
Last week a Fire Chief in a nearby Community had a new Lithium polymer Battery which was removed from the unit after it run out of charge exploding. The Chief reported it was removed from his Air Soft Gun then just set on the Floor of his Garage then 15 minutes later it self detonated and exploded then started on Fire. Luckily it was noticed by his Spouse because of the smoke alarm otherwise the House could have burned down.

Now we have these Batteries everywhere including Computers, eBikes, cell Phones, Flashlights the list goes on. I don't scare easily but this got me thinking what I could do within reason to prevent this happening in our Household.

I already got myself a metal Box into which I place my eBike Batteries when recharging. I think I will also have a chat with my House Insurance provider to be sure that Fire damage started by Batteries is included in the Policy.

Any other thoughts will be appreciated.

Cheers
As you say, lithium batteries are everywhere but before you panic, be aware that statistics are in your favor. When you consider the number of batteries compared to reported incidents, the number is miniscule. I like to think of it as the total number of cigarettes compared to the number of fires caused by smoking in bed. Sure, the numbers are different but the principle is the same with most being caused by human error.

There is no doubt that lithium batteries need to be treated with respect and handled correctly. Doing so minimizes any risk. Storing and charging in a can can't hurt but it's impractical for items like cell phones and other portable electronic devices. Also, a can won't contain a fire caused by a large battery, such as those used on e-bikes. A can will simply melt or explode if sealed.

The safest way to charge these batteries is in a dry temperate outdoor location away from combustibles. I know of people who use a gas grill on their patio. If you have to charge indoors and are really concerned, consider a fire resistant location like a fireplace or wood stove.

There are many ways to minimize risk. Don't store or charge at temperatures above or below the manufacturers recommendations. Don't charge overnight or while unattended. Use a timer on your charger to avoid accidental overcharging. Don't charge a battery that has been damaged until it has been checked by a qualified professional.

Volumes have been posted here on lithium batteries. Use the search feature if you're really concerned or just want more information.
 
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Last week a Fire Chief in a nearby Community had a new Lithium polymer Battery which was removed from the unit after it run out of charge exploding. The Chief reported it was removed from his Air Soft Gun then just set on the Floor of his Garage then 15 minutes later it self detonated and exploded then started on Fire. Luckily it was noticed by his Spouse because of the smoke alarm otherwise the House could have burned down.

Now we have these Batteries everywhere including Computers, eBikes, cell Phones, Flashlights the list goes on. I don't scare easily but this got me thinking what I could do within reason to prevent this happening in our Household.

I already got myself a metal Box into which I place my eBike Batteries when recharging. I think I will also have a chat with my House Insurance provider to be sure that Fire damage started by Batteries is included in the Policy.

Any other thoughts will be appreciated.

Cheers
When a lithium battery is empty, it usually means that the BMS is over-discharged, but it is not completely no power. If the internal polarity is short-circuited or in an extreme temperature environment, it may still catch fire.
Therefore, when choosing batteries, you must choose batteries from regular manufacturers that have obtained safety certification. Similarly, the charger for charging lithium batteries is also very important. For example, in the US market, you should choose a UL-certified charger, and do not choose a charger with a charging current that is too large for your battery capacity. You should also choose a charger with multiple protection mechanisms, such as over-current protection, over-voltage protection, short-circuit protection, and reverse connection protection.
 
I thank everybody for there comment, unfortunately I had hoped for a "Wunderbar" solution which apparently there is none.

Seems to me that our Governments are very efficient contentiously increasing our Tax burden but fail miserably in protecting Consumers by insuring such increasingly widespread Products are engineered and manufactured eliminating any chance of self combustion.

Merry Christmas to all good People

Cheers
 
Dear @Urbancowboy

There are 5 basic "ingredients" to any lithium cell: Lithium (may be mixed with other elements such as Cobalt and Oxygen, known as LCO chemistry),
Separator (made from plastic and commonly coated with ceramic),
Electrolyte (Potassium Hydroxide, KOH, is a common one used),
Graphite (used to collect electrons when discharged), &
Aluminum or Steel (used as the case material whether a pouch or hard cylindrical or prismatic shape).

Of the 5 ingredients, at least 1 or sometimes 2 of the ingredients contain oxygen. And at least one or most often 2 are flammable materials. In fire protection engineering the ability to stop a fire requires being able to remove one of 3 things: heat, oxygen, or flammable material. This is known as the fire triangle. When a lithium cell goes into thermal runaway it is generating more heat (usually as a result of a weakness in the separator resulting in positive and negative touching inside the cell, e.g. a short) then it can dissipate and since the fire triangle requires heat, oxygen, and flammable material which inside a lithium cell all of that exists, this is why it's one of the most difficult types of fires to put out. Because even if you put it out temporarily, as soon as the cell has stopped being cooled by water, the short creates heat releasing oxygen and there is still flammable material and so the fire reignites.

There are many strategies to reduce the risk and likelihood of a thermal runaway event and it requires product design starting with the lithium cell being made of high quality and 3rd party certified to safety standard(s). Then the battery pack with its electronics are also to be checked and 3rd party certified to ensure it's doing it's part to electronically protect the cells from being overcharged, overdischarged, shutting down charge or discharge when too hot, and also shutting down when in other abnormal states. Finally the end product itself needs to be checked and 3rd party certified that the way the electricity from the battery pack is being used doesn't adversely affect the safety of the lithium cells and also that the charging (whether built into end product or stand-alone charger) is compatible with the ratings and specifications that match what the lithium cell is specified to be able to handle and has been previous certified for.

Unfortunately in USA there are zero federal consumer safety laws for lithium powered products to only be offered on the market when they have been thoroughly evaluated, tested and certified with ongoing factory surveillance with surprise inspections to reduce risk of fire, electric shock, or explosion. Quite a few countries around the globe like China, Japan, Taiwan, and others do have consumer product safety laws that do required 3rd party safety certification before offering a product to the consumers in these markets.

There has been a bill written at the federal level to allow U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission to go beyond just providing guidance to manufacturers, importers, retailers, and others about meeting safety standards and being 3rd party certified but it is hard to say what will happen with that. Unfortunately that continues to leave the risk fairly high for most lithium powered products however many older industries like personal grooming, power tools, audio/video, mobile phone, etc. have a fairly regular practice of making their products 3rd party certified. So that is positive however the newer industries that are forming and use larger battery systems like micro- & mini- mobility, consumer robots and drones, etc. have been less likely to make their products 3rd party certified. After New York City passed a law specific to e-bikes and e-scooters last year that started to make these specific types of products safer, but at federal level it's really needs to be there as well.

I've discussed the topic a couple of times on podcasts last year and this year. Happy to send those links if you want further information.
 
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Dear @Urbancowboy

There are 5 basic "ingredients" to any lithium cell: Lithium (may be mixed with other elements such as Cobalt and Oxygen, known as LCO chemistry),
Separator (made from plastic and commonly coated with ceramic),
Electrolyte (Potassium Hydroxide, KOH, is a common one used),
Graphite (used to collect electrons when discharged), &
Aluminum or Steel (used as the case material whether a pouch or hard cylindrical or prismatic shape).

Of the 5 ingredients, at least 1 or sometimes 2 of the ingredients contain oxygen. And at least one or most often 2 are flammable materials. In fire protection engineering the ability to stop a fire requires being able to remove one of 3 things: heat, oxygen, or flammable material. This is known as the fire triangle. When a lithium cell goes into thermal runaway it is generating more heat (usually as a result of a weakness in the separator resulting in positive and negative touching inside the cell, e.g. a short) then it can dissipate and since the fire triangle requires heat, oxygen, and flammable material which inside a lithium cell all of that exists, this is why it's one of the most difficult types of fires to put out. Because even if you put it out temporarily, as soon as the cell has stopped being cooled by water, the short creates heat releasing oxygen and there is still flammable material and so the fire reignites.

There are many strategies to reduce the risk and likelihood of a thermal runaway event and it requires product design starting with the lithium cell being made of high quality and 3rd party certified to safety standard(s). Then the battery pack with its electronics are also to be checked and 3rd party certified to ensure it's doing it's part to electronically protect the cells from being overcharged, overdischarged, shutting down charge or discharge when too hot, and also shutting down when in other abnormal states. Finally the end product itself needs to be checked and 3rd party certified that the way the electricity from the battery pack is being used doesn't adversely affect the safety of the lithium cells and also that the charging (whether built into end product or stand-alone charger) is compatible with the ratings and specifications that match what the lithium cell is specified to be able to handle and has been previous certified for.

Unfortunately in USA there are zero federal consumer safety laws for lithium powered products to only be offered on the market when they have been thoroughly evaluated, tested and certified with ongoing factory surveillance with surprise inspections to reduce risk of fire, electric shock, or explosion. Quite a few countries around the globe like China, Japan, Taiwan, and others do have consumer product safety laws that do required 3rd party safety certification before offering a product to the consumers in these markets.

There has been a bill written at the federal level to allow U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission to go beyond just providing guidance to manufacturers, importers, retailers, and others about meeting safety standards and being 3rd party certified but it is hard to say what will happen with that. Unfortunately that continues to leave the risk fairly high for most lithium powered products however many older industries like personal grooming, power tools, audio/video, mobile phone, etc. have a fairly regular practice of making their products 3rd party certified. So that is positive however the newer industries that are forming and use larger battery systems like micro- & mini- mobility, consumer robots and drones, etc. have been less likely to make their products 3rd party certified. After New York City passed a law specific to e-bikes and e-scooters last year that started to make these specific types of products safer, but at federal level it's really needs to be there as well.

I've discussed the topic a couple of times on podcasts last year and this year. Happy to send those links if you want further information.
Thank you for taking the time and sharing you knowledge with the users herein.
Happy new year !
 
Electrolyte (Potassium Hydroxide, KOH, is a common one used),
I don't know where you got this information from. Usually, it is organic (flammable) electrolyte in Li-ion cells.

Aluminum or Steel (used as the case material whether a pouch or hard cylindrical or prismatic shape).
If you allowed KOH act on an aluminium surface, you would get a rapid exothermic chemical reaction with complete dissolution of Al and release of explosive hydrogen within seconds.

Your "information" does not match the real facts.
 
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There are a thousand electrical connectors, any one could come loose, start arcing and cause a fire.
Our kettle...thing the US hasnt discovered...plug exploded in the night, blew the fuse out on the floor, split the plug open, all singed and melted.

Smoke alarms
Smoke alarms
 
If you allowed KOH act on an aluminium surface, you would get a rapid exothermic chemical reaction with complete dissolution of Al and release of explosive hydrogen within seconds

There's insulators, isolators, and gaskets in all batteries that keep the electrolyte where it's supposed to be.


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An impact can set a lithium cell on fire if the separators fail regardless of what metals or electrolytes are used.
 
As you say, lithium batteries are everywhere but before you panic, be aware that statistics are in your favor. When you consider the number of batteries compared to reported incidents, the number is miniscule. I like to think of it as the total number of cigarettes compared to the number of fires caused by smoking in bed. Sure, the numbers are different but the principle is the same with most being caused by human error.

There is no doubt that lithium batteries need to be treated with respect and handled correctly. Doing so minimizes any risk. Storing and charging in a can can't hurt but it's impractical for items like cell phones and other portable electronic devices. Also, a can won't contain a fire caused by a large battery, such as those used on e-bikes. A can will simply melt or explode if sealed.

The safest way to charge these batteries is in a dry temperate outdoor location away from combustibles. I know of people who use a gas grill on their patio. If you have to charge indoors and are really concerned, consider a fire resistant location like a fireplace or wood stove.

There are many ways to minimize risk. Don't store or charge at temperatures above or below the manufacturers recommendations. Don't charge overnight or while unattended. Use a timer on your charger to avoid accidental overcharging. Don't charge a battery that has been damaged until it has been checked by a qualified professional.

Volumes have been posted here on lithium batteries. Use the search feature if you're really concerned or just want more information.
go LiFePo seems to be safer, there was a guy awhile who tried to blame a lithium battery for burning in the bike box,obviously faked
Dear @Stefan Mikes

To keep it simple KOH was mentioned as an illustrative example of electrolyte, it is a common one used in several battery chemistries. You are correct most electrolyte in lithium ion cells use organic solvents and are highly flammable.
its used in those nasty ass appliance destroying ( flashlights portable electronic devices) alkaline batteries( drycells) I usually use chloride batteries because of this,some rechargeable batteries use flammable electrolytes/
 
If ICE cars were powered by mixing glycols like some rocket engines, and the two halves were seperated by aluminium foil in the tank, there would be an exclusion zone around the tank and theyd send in a robot to drain it.

Theres no getting around thats exactly how a lithium battery is constructed with similar consequences, but they are perfectly safe if treated properly.

Just like the nut holding your steering wheel to the column , if it comes undone as you turn a 60 mph bend, good luck not leaving the road
 
There are a thousand electrical connectors, any one could come loose, start arcing and cause a fire.
Our kettle...thing the US hasnt discovered...plug exploded in the night, blew the fuse out on the floor, split the plug open, all singed and melted.

Smoke alarms
Smoke alarms
240 volt kettles? The US discovered in the 19th Century that 240 V countertop appliances are not safe. We bring 240 to the house with a ground halfway between. The 240 is for things like my water heater. For a few years, it would sometimes arc between the terminals of the lower heating element and trip the breaker. There was a bit of rust between the terminals. 240 has a peak of 336, which could sometimes arc between the terminals. I finally got tired of it and spent $7 on a new heating element.

Such arcing in a plug-in appliance could start a fire, so we use 120, peak 168, for ordinary plugs. Besides, 120 is much less likely to kill the person who touches the base of a bulb that's wired wrong. :D
 
The US discovered in the 19th Century that 240 V countertop appliances are not safe.
The U.S seems to have remained in the 19th century. (Interestingly Mr. Edison claimed the AC was dangerous to compete Mr. Tesla). All other civilized countries of the world are on the 230 or 220 V grid. A higher voltage allows using thinner electrical cables to deliver the same power to an appliance. 120 V is as much dangerous as 230 V...


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Three European countries: the UK, Ireland and Denmark are as much paranoid about the safety their wall sockets are equipped with an extra security switch. (The British/Irish wall socket shown).

1735370316393.png

The details of European wall sockets may vary but all the plugs are compatible. For instance, Poland uses both German and French style sockets. (250 V indicated is for the maximum allowed voltage).

Interestingly, China often uses universal sockets, so both U.S. and Euro plugs can be used.
 
The U.S seems to have remained in the 19th century. (Interestingly Mr. Edison claimed the AC was dangerous to compete Mr. Tesla). All other civilized countries of the world are on the 230 or 220 V grid. A higher voltage allows using thinner electrical cables to deliver the same power to an appliance. 120 V is as much dangerous as 230 V...
My neighborhood power is at 9000 V. It comes the last 100 feet at 240, with neither conductor more than 120 V from ground, making it safer than European household voltage. This system has been standard in America since 1892, when Edison switched to AC. Maybe that makes America a little more civilized than those 230 V countries. ;)

It was a Berlin power company that went to 220 V in 1899 so their lines could handle more customers. That's the root of the 230 V system in Europe. Transformers would have allowed the same lines supply far more customers. Were they still on DC?

Wiring doesn't have to be thick for circuits that supply small household appliances. The lower voltage means less risk of arcing through or across insulation and less danger when someone inevitably contacts both conductors. Large appliances like kitchen stoves need only half the current at 240 AC. It's safer because it reduces the chance of fire from an overheated connection.
 
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