Latest mid-drive BBS02B conversion

[harryS]

Bought the BBS02B last January from pswpower.com. I believe it was $430 USD shipped, Found the Diamondback for $50 that same week. Unlike other Diamondbacks I have from the same time, this one had steel wheels and no provision for disk brakes, I had to swap in alloy wheels and a new fork. When I put these pics up, I realized that one rim is silver and the other black, Damn. Oh well.
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I knew that Bafang had changed things since I bought my first BBS02B in 2016. Did they ever. Found it unrideable by my standards and had to buy the program cable to change the factory settings, That went pretty well, The details are on the web, I even found the cable on amazon for $13,
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Battery is 48V15AH nominal, 14AH actual, Uses LG cells, Attached to the curved frame with four fasteners, Could be worse as far as looks. . I've gone 44 miles and drained it down to 47.4 volts, so I think 60 miles is a guaranteed range,
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Can't say enough about the ability to change settings. I'd ride PAS 1 and it barely gave 75W and that would disappear as I approached 12 mph, Switch to PAS 2 and the same thing happened at 15 mph. I removed the speed limits on the PAS levels and fixed that, I also increased the current in the first 4 levels, so I wouldn't have to start in PAS 1 and rapidly jump to PAS 5.
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The throttle is useless for something like passing unless one goes to PAS 7-9, Can't even go up my driveway in PAS 1 on throttle alone, Probably burn out the motor if it were longer. I believe I need the Nilson firmware to get the throttle to work like it does on my first BBS02B, Not doing that. I want to get this bike out of my garage and to my friend next month, He won't mind these limitations,.
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[m@Robertson]

What are your settings? Results sound odd but then again getting this sort of thing just right is a black art.

 

[Gionnirocket]

What are your settings? Results sound odd but then again getting this sort of thing just right is a black art.

I concur.
Not saying that my settings would be perfect for you... but they're definitely geared towards us older gents and think you might appreciate some aspects of it compared to stock and your changes so far.

 

[harryS]

Used recommendations from https://edrivenet.com/bafang-programming/ and set wheel size and 24A.
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Thinking 5 PAS levels, 20/40/60/80/99 would be better.

 

[m@Robertson]

According to what I'm reading that Assist 0 setting should be 1 and 1 or it disables throttle at PAS 0. May be outdated info. On older versions of the firmware I used 4 and 30 and created a crawl-mode for use on crowded mixed-use trails. Doesn't work anymore.

Here's another way to do pedal assist screen. Start current is much lower so its gentle on the rear cluster. Slow start mode is a little gentler to be nice to the drivetrain. Start degree is cranked way up but thats me slowing down the engagement of the motor because its a 2wd bike and the front motor takes the initial load from a stop. Stop delay engages as quickly as can be safely gotten away with. Current decay (when cadence rpms climb to the point where motor power begins to be reduced) is set to the lowest effect on this version, but I usually use 4 nowadays, which is more aggressive about pulling power back as my cadence increases. Stop decay is as fast possible. When current decay kicks in, it only keeps 40% of it on this screen. My thinking is if I can spin the crankarms I don't need power. That thinking doesn't work on singletrack

My throttle settings are wider at 11 and 42. Makes for a wider throttle response that is also smoother. I also put throttle start current down to 5% to keep the drivetrain pampered.

This is my current basic screen, which is not particularly intelligently laid out. I have tried some much more fancy algorithms to do the different limits, but this simple numeric progression does what I want, in the end, which, coupled to the decay settings, cuts my power back when I start reaching differing higher cadence rpms or motor speeds. A lot of people like to use solid 100's on the speed percentages but if I do that it handicaps the motor's ability to cut back power when its not needed. On a singletrack bike I can see 100's across the board. On an urban bike where rhythmic, precise cadence is a big part of the ride, this version comes into its own.

What I'm going to start testing is whether a scheme that changes speed % (and perhaps also current%) to increments with a uniform 40% increase makes for a better ride in hill country.

 

[Gionnirocket]

I don't know how you ride or what you want out of an ebike... But if you are looking for a smoother more natural ride for exercise... You need to lose the incremental 5/10 increases with PAS which look great on paper but typically feel aggressive and sloppy.
Once I abandoned that mode of thinking and set things to how I ride and how it feels... I fell in love with the BBS02B.
I won't go into explaining what I did in full detail unless you are interested and for now I'll just highlight the key points that made a big difference for me.

I set the PAS SPEED to gradually increasing cadences that I ride in. Setting them all to 100 basically negates the cadence sensors variable function and turns the pedals into an ON/OFF switch. Maybe good for a cargo bike but not a more natural feeling exercise bike. I typically ride in PAS 4 thru 7 which are cadences I feel comfortable in and can maintain for a time and the current is set to what is needed.. but not much more than that. Using all 9 PAS and having SPEEDs closer together gives you a nice smooth progression and/or just that little bit more when you want.
So... when using the gears as you normally would when in any PAS it will help you keep that particular cadence. On a flat I'm at 0 to >100w. But when I encounter resistance like a hill or wind the motor will automatically assist and help maintain that same cadence. Don't be distracted by what seems like high current settings as they are all tempered by the rest of the settings and the variable output of using SPEEDs of less than 100. I've no more wear on the drive train than normal as the bike behaves more like a younger me than a high power eBike. Of course you can still abuse things and ride hard by taping up the PAS scale quickly... but for the most part I'm not.

On this page we're just about the same except for the STOP DECAY. I can't emphasis enough that raising this to at least 100 (1000ms) is a must for a smoother acceleration curve on the BBS02B. Forget everything you read about this setting because it's wrong and what it does do is remove a lot of the ON/OFF feel that these motors have when cruising as well as lengthening the acceleration curve to a more natural feel.

As for the throttle... Best thing you can do for the widest smoothest feel is to set the START and END Voltage to your particular throttle. Mine is set for the half twist type.

I can't emphasize enough to you to ditch everyone else's settings and find your own which is the beauty of these motors. Other's settings are best used as a starting/reference point and help you see what is possible.
If you ride similarly to me and want a little more detail let me know...
In any case, enjoy the new ride!

 

[m@Robertson]

I can't emphasize enough to you to ditch everyone else's settings and find your own which is the beauty of these motors. Other's settings are best used as a starting/reference point and help you see what is possible.

^^^ Absolutely this. There is no such thing as an ideal setting for two different people, and it even changes when the same person configures two different bikes.

When you do establish a baseline, change only one thing to evaluate the change. As noted above different settings interact with one another and you'll never figure out wtf is going on if you change more than one thing at once prior to setting off to decide if it was a good thing to do.

I found it is a huge benefit to be able to make changes mid-ride. Usually that means not using a laptop and a programming cable, and instead using some other device like an Eggrider and a phone, or a Luna Black Box which is what I have. I think there are more options nowadays.

 

[smorgasbord]

I also recommend this post from @circuitsmith

BBS*** Settings for a Smoother Ride

Good to see others digging into the settings and making them personal. And it seems we take a similar approach with similar needs. A few questions for you.... I see your Stop Delay is set to 10. It's been reported by many and I can confirm with my BBS02B ( circa 2020) that the BBS02 acts a bit...

electricbikereview.com

Which has this great graphic of how the Pedal tab's parameters affect BBSxx motor behavior.

 

[Gionnirocket]

I also recommend this post from @circuitsmith

BBS*** Settings for a Smoother Ride

Good to see others digging into the settings and making them personal. And it seems we take a similar approach with similar needs. A few questions for you.... I see your Stop Delay is set to 10. It's been reported by many and I can confirm with my BBS02B ( circa 2020) that the BBS02 acts a bit...

electricbikereview.com

Which has this great graphic of how the Pedal tab's parameters affect BBSxx motor behavior.

I can tell you with certainty that the Stop Decay doesn't work as illustrated and nothing I've seen other than assumptions confirms that graphs accuracy... Well at least on the BBS02B.
That said it does seem to be in the ballpark.

^^^ Absolutely this. There is no such thing as an ideal setting for two different people, and it even changes when the same person configures two different bikes.

When you do establish a baseline, change only one thing to evaluate the change. As noted above different settings interact with one another and you'll never figure out wtf is going on if you change more than one thing at once prior to setting off to decide if it was a good thing to do.

I found it is a huge benefit to be able to make changes mid-ride. Usually that means not using a laptop and a programming cable, and instead using some other device like an Eggrider and a phone, or a Luna Black Box which is what I have. I think there are more options nowadays.

I double/triple concur... I even tweak things between summer and winter on the same bike as I want slower and more subdued in the cold and a little friskier and aggressive come the warmer weather.
I found the SPEEED App with the PC cable and a Type C adapter a cost effective easy way to make changes on the fly. The app can even be a backup display.

 

[harryS]

Quite an interesting discussion on this topic. I appreciate the replies, and I;m sure others do too.
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Today, I was going to ride and run the battery down to gauge the range, but I remembered the right pedal was feeling odd. Yikes, the pedal stripped in the arm and was askew. I put it in correctly, IT just wallowed itself out, Bummer quality.
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I considered cutting the arm out of an old crank, but they're $12.99 on amazon. Ordered one for Friday delivery.
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[m@Robertson]

I found the SPEEED App with the PC cable and a Type C adapter a cost effective easy way to make changes on the fly. The app can even be a backup display.

Since I looked around yesterday and could not find my trusty Black Box I'm going to try this (buying the adapters and a programming cable is a sure sign I will find the box right afterwards)

 

[m@Robertson]

Found the Black Box yesterday afternoon (of course).

Amazon delivers the cable and adapter today. I'll try Speeed on a bike I don't have to depend on as I've seen it doesn't officially support the BBSHD, although users claim it works fine. Also in another venue I was helping a guy out and he claimed the app bricked his motor. But I think it much more likely he did something dumb.

 

[Gionnirocket]

Found the Black Box yesterday afternoon (of course).

Amazon delivers the cable and adapter today. I'll try Speeed on a bike I don't have to depend on as I've seen it doesn't officially support the BBSHD, although users claim it works fine. Also in another venue I was helping a guy out and he claimed the app bricked his motor. But I think it much more likely he did something dumb.

That's been happening to me a lot more lately... and as you, I find it shortly after purchasing a replacement.
What makes you think that the HD isn't supported?

My experience has had 0 bugs

 

[m@Robertson]

What makes you think that the HD isn't supported?

There is a list of supported motors in the app's entry in the App Store and it only names the BBS01 and BBS01B. Now, clearly, thats not exactly correct given the BBS02, and add to that the fact that there's plenty of different ways you can describe the BBSxx series of motors (i,.e. BBS03, BBSHD and so on). But coming on the heels of someone telling me the app bricked their motor, I'll try it on a reserve bike first.

I've experienced BBSHDs that have not quite compatible firmware inside of them depending on who sold it to me. I have always bought Luna motors but I do have one recent purchase from Cali Ebike and that motor is forced to 28a max. One of the recent '52v' motors from Bafang. On E-S I saw a report it had some other quirks that for an unknown reason made it a weaker performer than 30a HDs. Bafang basically doing its hate-thing on 52v. I set that motor aside and relegated it to backup status.

 

[m@Robertson]

hmmm I just looked at your scrnshot and its not what I see. I'll check the display on my phone instead. That ellipsis at the end of the motor list implies something else is there and based on your scrnshot...

 

[Gionnirocket]

hmmm I just looked at your scrnshot and its not what I see. I'll check the display on my phone instead. That ellipsis at the end of the motor list implies something else is there and based on your scrnshot...
View attachment 152522

Yes that's the abbreviated description and I too had to expand it to see the full list.

And at least Bafang keeps things interesting with there firmware... which brings me to asking a favor if you're feeling frogy.
In reviewing my Stop Decay thread and a few others I noticed that those mostly appreciating a setting of 100 (1000ms in the app) are those with a BBS02B. If you have the time and will, give it a try and tell me what you think. On the BBS02B, I and others have set it above 200 without issue so I'm pretty confident that you can do no harm.
I'm currently in a pissing contest on here (as I usually am and I'm curious if my findings are somehow only pertaining to the BBS02B firmware.
No worries if you don't want to get involved or just aren't interested.

 

[m@Robertson]

In reviewing my Stop Decay thread and a few others I noticed that those mostly appreciating a setting of 100 (1000ms in the app) are those with a BBS02B. If you have the time and will, give it a try and tell me what you think. On the BBS02B, I and others have set it above 200 without issue so I'm pretty confident that you can do no harm.

I am planning on playing with my white Bullitt via my Black Box later today, so sure I can fiddle with it. I use a Stop Decay of zero with the idea being I want the motor to stop assisting as fast as possible when I stop pedaling. A setting of 1 second would seem to allow quite a ramp-down. I should be able to test that pretty conclusively as I'm riding up steep hills, and I do not use a gear sensor. I can stop pedaling and simultaneously shift and see what happens. As it stands I get a gentle gear shift with the whisper of leftover power and drivetrain momentum. If I get a much more noticeable powered shift that will tell me *something* is happening immediately. From there I can see what the effect is on flat ground.

Thinking on it, maybe I'd better try it on flat ground first.

 

[Gionnirocket]

I am planning on playing with my white Bullitt via my Black Box later today, so sure I can fiddle with it. I use a Stop Decay of zero with the idea being I want the motor to stop assisting as fast as possible when I stop pedaling. A setting of 1 second would seem to allow quite a ramp-down. I should be able to test that pretty conclusively as I'm riding up steep hills, and I do not use a gear sensor. I can stop pedaling and simultaneously shift and see what happens. As it stands I get a gentle gear shift with the whisper of leftover power and drivetrain momentum. If I get a much more noticeable powered shift that will tell me *something* is happening immediately. From there I can see what the effect is on flat ground.

Thinking on it, maybe I'd better try it on flat ground first.

Thanks....
But my experience is that this setting has absolutely nothing to do with motor run_on after pedaling stops and in assumption is tied to Keep Current. It smooths out the motor acceleration, cruising and eliminates the ON/OFF feel when at a steady pace as well as heavy lurches. A minimum setting of 1000ms (100 in the software) is required to start seeing these results.

 

[harryS]

I set the throttle speed limit to level 8 (80%) , and that gave me the strong throttle in the lower pas modes, I tried the PAS 0 limit at 1, which gave me throttle 24/7 like my own bike, but that's unsafe for a newbie, so I won't do that.
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I'll back off the throttle a little,maybe down to 60% before I deliver the bike,
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Did run the stop delay to 100 as gionnirocket recommends, and lowered the start current to 10% on both throttle pages, The PC connection was a little balky today, so I want to stop fiddling soon.
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[Gionnirocket]

I set the throttle speed limit to level 8 (80%) , and that gave me the strong throttle in the lower pas modes, I tried the PAS 0 limit at 1, which gave me throttle 24/7 like my own bike, but that's unsafe for a newbie, so I won't do that.
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I'll back off the throttle a little,maybe down to 60% before I deliver the bike,
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Did run the stop delay to 100 as gionnirocket recommends, and lowered the start current to 10% on both throttle pages, The PC connection was a little balky today, so I want to stop fiddling soon.
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Coolio... I'd be interested in your observations.
Also I set the PAS 0 to 0/0 for safety. I never understood setting it to 1/1 for throttle only operation. You can have throttle only in any PAS... just stop pedaling