Klever e bike brand - Ridiculous battery warranty

[Ebiker01]

Seems like a really nice bike brand, I doubt anyone in the Us has ridden one, if so, please post your exp.
Here is their bat. Warranty:

“

• 2 years warranty for battery under the following conditions:
  
  • not more than 700 loading cycles
  • the battery has been recharged at least every 3 months (to prevent from becoming over-discharged (="dead"). See under FAQ how to lengthing the battery life)
  • replacement only when the capacity is below 60% measured at the temperature of 25 degrees Celsius
  • 3 years warranty possible when you have registered your bike on the Klever-mobility website within 1 month after purchase date, when you have not more than 500 loading cycles after 3 yrs, when the battery has been recharged at least every 3 months, and when the capacity is below 50% measured at the temperature of 25 degrees Celsius

Really ??



It really makes me thinks that there is a conspiracy brewing within the e bike industry either setting up the batteries to run limited cycles , and/or other corporate tricks.
The iPhone battery experience from awhile ago is a good example, allthough not an e bike the phone has same bat. Tech.

 

[Ken M]

Batteries are expensive and there are many ways a consumer can abuse a battery so the manufacturers are just protecting themselves from abuse. The newer generation of BMSs (battery management systems) can record a lot of parameters over the life of the battery so the OEMs can verify if a battery is still under warranty or not.

Suffice it to say, if someone follows rational use and charging practices the life of a good battery can be significant and extended.

That said, I would like to see the OEMs always have chargers that allow charging to say 80/90/100% levels as not always charging to 100% can dramatically extend battery life. Not allowing the battery to fully discharge in use can also be a good thing. Sometimes I do think the OEMs want the batteries to last only so long to get that follow-on business so you have to be aware that they have those bean counters that are always out to get you. Beware the corporate bean counters is always why you want to understand the technology as those people can't add value to the products made in other ways.

 

[Ebiker01]

Ken, Thank you for entering this debate and insightful observations presented !
Personally I have yet to figure out what exactly means 1 discharge/charge cycle . If I charge it from 50%-90% is it 1 cycle ? But I only used the charger to charge 40% off the battery , so it can’t be a full cycle.
Same with charging from 20%-90%. If you do that 2x , you leave uncharged 60% of the bat. so it can’t be considered a cycle.
1x charge- 20%-90%=30% left uncharged

Over 10x of charging only like this , a big % is left uncharged, allthough those 10x could be considered full cycles ! That I have yet to find out....

 

[Ken M]

Ken, Thank you for entering this debate and insightful observations presented !
Personally I have yet to figure out what exactly means 1 discharge/charge cycle . If I charge it from 50%-90% is it 1 cycle ? But I only used the charger to charge 40% off the battery , so it can’t be a full cycle.
Same with charging from 20%-90%. If you do that 2x , you leave uncharged 60% of the bat. so it can’t be considered a cycle.
1x charge- 20%-90%=30% left uncharged

Over 10x of charging only like this , a big % is left uncharged, allthough those 10x could be considered full cycles ! That I have yet to find out....

It is my understanding that partial charges are not consider a full charge cycle. Not sure if there is an industry standard on what is considered an end of life battery but I believe it's when the highest charge voltage is below 80% of the new level. What is strange is that voltage is not like a gas gauge so it's not a good indicator of remaining range (most ebikers learn this pretty quickly because the last 25% of charge can go pretty quickly).

As you pointed out, You do loose some range when you don't charge to max level but in general the total miles of usage from the battery will be greater if not always fully charged (at least based on everything I have read and I'm pretty sure that is why Tesla has programmable charging levels - sometimes you may want the max range and fully charging makes sense in that case so this is a rule of thumb not something that always has to be followed).

Battery life and range was really the downfall of early ebikes in my opinion. The new battery technology is pretty revolutionary and it's going to get better based on reports of solid state batteries and maybe even "controllable" super capacitors. The revolution will soon allow electric cars to be produces cheaper than fossil fuel cars - I think most automotive companies see that on the horizon and are ready for the transition.

 

[Deleted member 4210]

Seems like a really nice bike brand, I doubt anyone in the Us has ridden one, if so, please post your exp.
Here is their bat. Warranty:

“

• 2 years warranty for battery under the following conditions:
  • not more than 700 loading cycles
  • the battery has been recharged at least every 3 months (to prevent from becoming over-discharged (="dead"). See under FAQ how to lengthing the battery life)
  • replacement only when the capacity is below 60% measured at the temperature of 25 degrees Celsius
  • 3 years warranty possible when you have registered your bike on the Klever-mobility website within 1 month after purchase date, when you have not more than 500 loading cycles after 3 yrs, when the battery has been recharged at least every 3 months, and when the capacity is below 50% measured at the temperature of 25 degrees Celsius

Really ??



It really makes me thinks that there is a conspiracy brewing within the e bike industry either setting up the batteries to run limited cycles , and/or other corporate tricks.
The iPhone battery experience from awhile ago is a good example, allthough not an e bike the phone has same bat. Tech.

There is nothing out of line with what they are stating:
700 cycles (one full discharge, and re-charge) is no big deal. Some higher end products like Samsung or Panasonic will say 800 to 1000 total available.
Note that if the battery does not fully drain before re-charging, that is both better for the life of the battery, and doesn't count as a 'cycle'. They probably have a cycle counter within the battery management software to check. If you get 40 miles on a charge, and 700 cycles, thats 28,000 bike miles.

Charge at least once in 3 months. Whats the big deal ? If you are in an area with 'winter' and dont ride the bike at all, and store a battery, best practice is to store between 50 and 75% full, and then once a month put the charger on it for about an hour. Mostly to keep it energized properly as a maintainer, but also to make sure it doesn't fall to full discharge.

It will be a LONG time before capacity falls to 60%, if these are grade A cells. Over time, even the best cells can degrade capacity a few percent per year. Part of it depends upon usage, how far you drain it down, how many times you let it fully discharge.

I dont see anything out of the ordinary, or any industry 'conspiracy.'

Dont leave the battery in a hot garage, or in the sun, and dont leave it in a cold garage, or below 50F for any length of time, and you'll be fine.

Besides in 2 years time, you wont likely come remotely close to any of their specified 'conditions.' Do you ride 14,000 miles a year ? If so, then maybe, but either way that is a fine amount of life for a battery. (28,000 ebike miles or 700 full cycles).

 

[Ebiker01]

There is nothing out of line with what they are stating:
700 cycles (one full discharge, and re-charge) is no big deal. Some higher end products like Samsung or Panasonic will say 800 to 1000 total available.
Note that if the battery does not fully drain before re-charging, that is both better for the life of the battery, and doesn't count as a 'cycle'. They probably have a cycle counter within the battery management software to check. If you get 40 miles on a charge, and 700 cycles, thats 28,000 bike miles.

Charge at least once in 3 months. Whats the big deal ? If you are in an area with 'winter' and dont ride the bike at all, and store a battery, best practice is to store between 50 and 75% full, and then once a month put the charger on it for about an hour. Mostly to keep it energized properly as a maintainer, but also to make sure it doesn't fall to full discharge.

It will be a LONG time before capacity falls to 60%, if these are grade A cells. Over time, even the best cells can degrade capacity a few percent per year. Part of it depends upon usage, how far you drain it down, how many times you let it fully discharge.

I dont see anything out of the ordinary, or any industry 'conspiracy.'

Dont leave the battery in a hot garage, or in the sun, and dont leave it in a cold garage, or below 50F for any length of time, and you'll be fine.

Besides in 2 years time, you wont likely come remotely close to any of their specified 'conditions.' Do you ride 14,000 miles a year ? If so, then maybe, but either way that is a fine amount of life for a battery. (28,000 ebike miles or 700 full cycles).

Well, then this brand is quite interesting, why it wasn’t brought here yet ??
Is a German brand with 860wh, 600watts motor.
Many similarities with Stromer (DD motor, GPS enabled and Motor lock out)

(Link Removed - No Longer Exists)

 

[Bruce Arnold]

700 charge cycles is generous. A lot of li-ion batteries are rated at 500 cycles before reaching a certain percentage of their stated capacity, usually in the 70% range (give or take, depending on manufacturer.) In other words, if a hypothetical battery was rated at 100 amp hours, then it would only provide 70 amp hours after having undergone 500 cycles.

A full cycle is a full discharge followed by a full charge. When Cadex Laboratory tested LiPo batteries they considered them to be fully charged at 4.2 V and fully discharged at 3.0 V. That's deeper than you'd want to discharge your ebike battery; the batteries they tested dropped to 73-84% capacity after 250 cycles. Yikes.

So, theoretically, if you discharged your battery to 50% and charged it to 100% every time, 500 full cycles would mean 1000 charges. If you discharged your battery to 20% and charged it to 80% as many recommend, that would be 0.6 charge. If the manufacturer rated the battery at 500 cycles, then you'd be able to do your typical charging around 830 times.

I keep saying hypothetical and theoretical because so many factors affect battery longevity, like temperature, fast vs. slow charging, fast vs. slow battery drain, etc.

@Deleted Member 4210 comments on mileage are spot-on. That's why I don't worry about charging my battery to 95% every time. I'll be ready to buy a new ebike by the time my battery tanks. At my current rate, it would be 6-7 years before I get there. Things will certainly have developed enough by then that I'll want a new bike; shucks, I'm already drooling over the CrossCurrent X -- I have the S version.

 

[Ebiker01]

700 charge cycles is generous. A lot of li-ion batteries are rated at 500 cycles before reaching a certain percentage of their stated capacity, usually in the 70% range (give or take, depending on manufacturer.) In other words, if a hypothetical battery was rated at 100 amp hours, then it would only provide 70 amp hours after having undergone 500 cycles.

A full cycle is a full discharge followed by a full charge. When Cadex Laboratory tested LiPo batteries they considered them to be fully charged at 4.2 V and fully discharged at 3.0 V. That's deeper than you'd want to discharge your ebike battery; the batteries they tested dropped to 73-84% capacity after 250 cycles. Yikes.

So, theoretically, if you discharged your battery to 50% and charged it to 100% every time, 500 full cycles would mean 1000 charges. If you discharged your battery to 20% and charged it to 80% as many recommend, that would be 0.6 charge. If the manufacturer rated the battery at 500 cycles, then you'd be able to do your typical charging around 830 times.

I keep saying hypothetical and theoretical because so many factors affect battery longevity, like temperature, fast vs. slow charging, fast vs. slow battery drain, etc.

@Deleted Member 4210 comments on mileage are spot-on. That's why I don't worry about charging my battery to 95% every time. I'll be ready to buy a new ebike by the time my battery tanks. At my current rate, it would be 6-7 years before I get there. Things will certainly have developed enough by then that I'll want a new bike; shucks, I'm already drooling over the CrossCurrent X -- I have the S version.

Got it, I understand it better now. But right now there is no legal entity or authority that certifies the loading charges - okay this battery has done this many cycles . each manufacturer may interpret it differently. The way you explained it is most logical and it should be like that.

 

[Steve Plattner]

It is my understanding that partial charges are not consider a full charge cycle. Not sure if there is an industry standard on what is considered an end of life battery but I believe it's when the highest charge voltage is below 80% of the new level. What is strange is that voltage is not like a gas gauge so it's not a good indicator of remaining range (most ebikers learn this pretty quickly because the last 25% of charge can go pretty quickly).

As you pointed out, You do loose some range when you don't charge to max level but in general the total miles of usage from the battery will be greater if not always fully charged (at least based on everything I have read and I'm pretty sure that is why Tesla has programmable charging levels - sometimes you may want the max range and fully charging makes sense in that case so this is a rule of thumb not something that always has to be followed).

Battery life and range was really the downfall of early ebikes in my opinion. The new battery technology is pretty revolutionary and it's going to get better based on reports of solid state batteries and maybe even "controllable" super capacitors. The revolution will soon allow electric cars to be produces cheaper than fossil fuel cars - I think most automotive companies see that on the horizon and are ready for the transition.

I agree wholeheartedly. Battery life and range are the true Achilles heel of bikes--at least the 2 Stromers I have owned (both ST-1). Even when you use them as instructed, they don't last anywhere near as long as they are purported to. When it comes to range, the claims Stromer made back when I bought mine in 2015 and 2016 were ludicrous. They need to do real world testing and create a table for potential users showing the gamut of range one could expect based on: total weight of bike and rider, wind resistance, temperature, number of cycles, speed, tire inflation, grades if any, etc. Claims of 60 and 70 miles or more on a single charge on even the 630wH battery are ridiculous. If you weigh 200 lbs., are on mostly flat surface, ride at 15 mph steadily with no headwind or tailwind, even when the battery is new, you'd do well to get 36-38 miles with a fully-charged battery replacing it at 10% of full charge. And after 50-100 cycles, in my experience you'd do well to get 32-35 miles from a fully-charged battery before removing it at 10% of full charge.

But on top of that, the actual battery cost is astronomical. Although I have done lots of great rides in the past three or four years on my Stromers, the batteries are aging much faster than I'd expected and the total cost of operation is very, very high. The market for longer-range, high tech bikes will not grow much in my view until battery technology changes substantially.

 

[Ken M]

I think the bike OEMs should find a way to report cost of ownership / mile ridden so ebikes can be compared to other forms of transportation at the same economic level. It has kind of sunk in that the cost of the battery is more than the lifetime of energy charges it will provide which just seems very strange.

I'm wondering if anyone has an estimate for battery cost per assist mile. Needs to be at least 80% less than the cost of fuel for the average car or ebikes may not be as compelling. But keep in mind that does not include the cost of insurance, parking, maintainance, etc. which can be very high for cars (not all the saving is fuel / energy specific).

 

[Ebiker01]

I think the bike OEMs should find a way to report cost of ownership / mile ridden so ebikes can be compared to other forms of transportation at the same economic level. It has kind of sunk in that the cost of the battery is more than the lifetime of energy charges it will provide which just seems very strange.

I'm wondering if anyone has an estimate for battery cost per assist mile. Needs to be at least 80% less than the cost of fuel for the average car or ebikes may not be as compelling. But keep in mind that does not include the cost of insurance, parking, maintainance, etc. which can be very high for cars (not all the saving is fuel / energy specific).

It is also a great “health insurance “ for many people, so the health/fitness aspect is hard to quantify b/c health care is very expensive here.
And then there is the joy factor or pure exhilaration when riding one. This things do make me to want purchase another battery and of course another e bike in near future.

 

[Ken M]

It is also a great “health insurance “ for many people, so the health/fitness aspect is hard to quantify b/c health care is very expensive here.
And then there is the joy factor or pure exhilaration when riding one. This things do make me to want purchase another battery and of course another e bike in near future.

Yes the health benefits are tangible and significant. I lost over 40lbs in my 1st year of commuting on an ebike and I'm 57. Sadly most Americans are so lazy and sedentary to even consider health benefits or the simple formula "eat less & move more" to loose weight.

 

[Gator]

700 charge cycles is generous. A lot of li-ion batteries are rated at 500 cycles before reaching a certain percentage of their stated capacity, usually in the 70% range (give or take, depending on manufacturer.) In other words, if a hypothetical battery was rated at 100 amp hours, then it would only provide 70 amp hours after having undergone 500 cycles.

A full cycle is a full discharge followed by a full charge. When Cadex Laboratory tested LiPo batteries they considered them to be fully charged at 4.2 V and fully discharged at 3.0 V. That's deeper than you'd want to discharge your ebike battery; the batteries they tested dropped to 73-84% capacity after 250 cycles. Yikes.

So, theoretically, if you discharged your battery to 50% and charged it to 100% every time, 500 full cycles would mean 1000 charges. If you discharged your battery to 20% and charged it to 80% as many recommend, that would be 0.6 charge. If the manufacturer rated the battery at 500 cycles, then you'd be able to do your typical charging around 830 times.

I keep saying hypothetical and theoretical because so many factors affect battery longevity, like temperature, fast vs. slow charging, fast vs. slow battery drain, etc.

@Deleted Member 4210 comments on mileage are spot-on. That's why I don't worry about charging my battery to 95% every time. I'll be ready to buy a new ebike by the time my battery tanks. At my current rate, it would be 6-7 years before I get there. Things will certainly have developed enough by then that I'll want a new bike; shucks, I'm already drooling over the CrossCurrent X -- I have the S version.

Good News

From Klever: ""Swap&GO" durable, stylish, easy-to-carry battery that works at as low as -10C and is designed with over-charging/under-charging protection.

 

[Ebiker01]

I agree wholeheartedly. Battery life and range are the true Achilles heel of bikes--at least the 2 Stromers I have owned (both ST-1). Even when you use them as instructed, they don't last anywhere near as long as they are purported to. When it comes to range, the claims Stromer made back when I bought mine in 2015 and 2016 were ludicrous. They need to do real world testing and create a table for potential users showing the gamut of range one could expect based on: total weight of bike and rider, wind resistance, temperature, number of cycles, speed, tire inflation, grades if any, etc. Claims of 60 and 70 miles or more on a single charge on even the 630wH battery are ridiculous. If you weigh 200 lbs., are on mostly flat surface, ride at 15 mph steadily with no headwind or tailwind, even when the battery is new, you'd do well to get 36-38 miles with a fully-charged battery replacing it at 10% of full charge. And after 50-100 cycles, in my experience you'd do well to get 32-35 miles from a fully-charged battery before removing it at 10% of full charge.

But on top of that, the actual battery cost is astronomical. Although I have done lots of great rides in the past three or four years on my Stromers, the batteries are aging much faster than I'd expected and the total cost of operation is very, very high. The market for longer-range, high tech bikes will not grow much in my view until battery technology changes substantially.

They still have same exaggerated range claims.
An e bike weight shouldn’t be higher then 45-47lb max. (I see BMC only as having that kind of an ebike-35lb weight , carbon frame ,500wh, small pack but b/c the weight is much less this one may be traveling further then most.
There are others but custom made and very expensive-Optibike comes to mind , great bikes but 7-15k price.
That range for a Stromer must be based on a 150lb weight for the rider with the 983wh pack on flat roads, butter smooth asphalt.
Is same thing for mine. 600wh -60lb bike , me another 175-185lb . Max 35miles range.

The breakthrough will happen when a 1kw battery is standard and they are failure proof.
Meaning you will never get stranded on the road b/c controller, motor, battery failure ... a AAA call would not be helpful, neither riding a monster 60lb bike.
I think that is the reason why the Juiced brand is so popular- they give the customers what is needed. Big Power and big battery pack. And is a cool name too...

Fyi- i am not very fond of it b/c is not that fancy but I know is a very okay bike , which if I were 2years ago when I didn’t knew a Stromer from a Archer ebike, I would have absolutely loved it.
After Learning about them I got very picky and choosy.

 

[Bruce Arnold]

I'm wondering if anyone has an estimate for battery cost per assist mile. Needs to be at least 80% less than the cost of fuel for the average car or ebikes may not be as compelling.

Depends on the rate you pay for electricity. At the rate Duke Energy charges me, it costs me about 27¢ per charge. I typically ride around 35 miles between charges. So $.27/35= ~. 008¢ per mile. I'm good with it.

 

[Ebiker01]

Depends on the rate you pay for electricity. At the rate Duke Energy charges me, it costs me about 27¢ per charge. I typically ride around 35 miles between charges. So $.27/35= ~. 008¢ per mile. I'm good with it.

Also the cost of the battery needs to be taken into the equation, no ?
Say if the bat. Is 700$, if it provides 1000cycles , it costs 1.428$ per cycle. 500cycles would be 3$/charge
If a charge last 50miles , cost very very low; 25miles still good price. And then add the electricity cost per charge which is still v. Low and it varries( so if you use 0.27cents/charge. So 0.27$ +3$ =3.27$/charge if the bat. Is 700$ and 500cycles only.
If they could be charged by solar alone at home or on the bike + IF the cells would be better , longer lasting, the cost would be totally insignificant and ICE (internal combustion engine) cars would totally be put into oblivion finally after 100+years.

 

[Bruce Arnold]

Also the cost of the battery needs to be taken into the equation, no ?

The cost of the battery is part of the cost of the bike. You don't count the cost of the gas tank and electronic fuel injection when figuring how much it takes to operate an automobile, do you? I'm not being flip, I think it's a good parallel.

 

[Ebiker01]

The cost of the battery is part of the cost of the bike. You don't count the cost of the gas tank and electronic fuel injection when figuring how much it takes to operate an automobile, do you? I'm not being flip, I think it's a good parallel.

I think b/c the cells or the battery which is expensive I have included it and makes a better understanding. But now that you mentioned the car , you got me confused a little bit...
In my view the battery makes the bike. Everyone or most people would look at an ebike with this Question in their mind “ how many miles does it do ? “ And b/c the battery provides that energy, is the most imp. Part of the ebike.
But anyways with it or without the bat. Price taken into account , we have a low price/mile and we will definetly have an even much lower price/mile in near future. I’m pretty sure around 2021 Solid state batteries will be introduced and/or liquid or other type of cooling made available in the bat. Case.

 

[Bruce Arnold]

But you paid for the battery when you bought the bike. I think you have to depreciate it as a whole.

That may have to do with my sense that long before the time the battery gives out I'll be ready for a new bike.

People do that with cars, too. They don't fix all the little this and that's after some point. They get a new car.

So if you're thinking you'll keep the bike for 20 years and just replace the battery every so often, okay, maybe you depreciate the battery separately.

So given that a battery decreases in power over time, and being conservative in my estimates, here's how I'd figure it. Take how many miles you can get on a full cycle. Multiply by 0.8 to represent an average over time. Multiply that by 500 cycles. That's how many total miles you'll get before battery replacement. Divide that into the cost of a new battery and you've got your cost per mile.

I get about 60 miles on my 17.4 Ah battery. 60*0.8=48 miles average over time as the battery capacity fades. Multiply that by 500 cycles=24,000 miles. Divide that into the $1200 it would cost me to replace it = 5¢ per mile. Plus the $0.008 for electricity.

This is a conservative estimate. If I take good care of my battery, I might get 600-800 cycles out of it, which would be thousands more miles. If I do 3000 miles/year, which is my goal this year (roughly 60 mi/wk, which is not a whole lot), then we're looking at 8-10 years of riding before replacing the battery. Save $100-150 per year for the new battery out of my savings on gas and maintenance and the battery pays for itself.

Again, I'm good with it.

 

[Randroid]

Seems like a really nice bike brand, I doubt anyone in the Us has ridden one, if so, please post your exp.
Here is their bat. Warranty:

“

• 2 years warranty for battery under the following conditions:
  • not more than 700 loading cycles
  • the battery has been recharged at least every 3 months (to prevent from becoming over-discharged (="dead"). See under FAQ how to lengthing the battery life)
  • replacement only when the capacity is below 60% measured at the temperature of 25 degrees Celsius
  • 3 years warranty possible when you have registered your bike on the Klever-mobility website within 1 month after purchase date, when you have not more than 500 loading cycles after 3 yrs, when the battery has been recharged at least every 3 months, and when the capacity is below 50% measured at the temperature of 25 degrees Celsius

Really ??



It really makes me thinks that there is a conspiracy brewing within the e bike industry either setting up the batteries to run limited cycles , and/or other corporate tricks.
The iPhone battery experience from awhile ago is a good example, allthough not an e bike the phone has same bat. Tech.

To quote George Orwell : "In times of universal deceit speaking the truth becomes an act of rebellion". We live in such a time. Anyone who buys an E- bike ( especially from outside the US) online without having ridden one deserves what they get.