Installed a Rohloff Speedhub 14, IGH on my mid-drive Luna Z1 Ultra Mag

[Tom@WashDC]

Well then a separate posting shall be in order.

Now thinking about it Im not sure Eric ( Luna) would want another bike manufacturer's ( Exess) build up of the Rohloff on his property so to speak.

Maybe I could drop in the Bafang section.

We purchased the frames and motors from WW a couple years back so Im not sure if that's a good fit.

Decisions decisions. Probably Bafang.

I had emailed the administrators here if they would setup a Rohloff thread under "Discussion by Brand & User Reviews", but never heard back.

 

[greeno]

I believe it.
Three years ago when I got this bike I sent them a request for an EXESS section under bike manufacturers and tumbleweeds is all I got.

 

[Tom@WashDC]

5/20/23 - See edit to original post.
Well, after 26 days, the missing adapter sleeve for the right hand drop out finally arrived. I will store it in my toolbox for who knows what. They even sent me a Rohloff sticker for my troubles! My home made adapter that I had custom machined is superior because it threads into the derailleur hanger and is theoretically more secure, so I'll keep it in place. Thank Zeus I was able to "MacGyver" the fix. I would have been pretty angry about the delay in getting the part. To be fair, I also did not press the dealer or Rohloff for speed because I was already up and running and I let them know that.

 

[Tom@WashDC]

5/20/23 - I've ridden on some pretty aggressive MTB trails and bounced the rear suspension quite a lot under speed. I have not lost the chain in circumstances where I did lose the chain in the past with my cog/derailleur system. If this continues I may not install the chain guard.

 

[rtp]

How many miles in total do you have on it now, Tom?
Curious for the 500/1000 mile checkins. Love the idea, and certainly Rohloff is at the top of the options out there (both quality AND price), so am 'interested' but also sporadically freaked out by the $ as well as the various 'oil sporadically leaked out' stories here and there. For the $$, am hoping towards bulletproof (within reason/some mechanical empathy applies), as well as extended chain life.

Definitely in for updates,

 

[greeno]

Hope your ride is working out to your satisfaction OP.
Later tonight or tomorrow I will start a brief thread over in the Bafang section on my buddys build with his Rohloff install on his Exess bike.
Ran into a few issues but nothing to odd.
Got a few pointers for anybody else adding this option to their ride.
Check it out.

 

[Tom@WashDC]

Hope your ride is working out to your satisfaction OP.
Later tonight or tomorrow I will start a brief thread over in the Bafang section on my buddys build with his Rohloff install on his Exess bike.
Ran into a few issues but nothing to odd.
Got a few pointers for anybody else adding this option to their ride.
Check it out.

Looking forward to it...

 

[Gionnirocket]

Hope your ride is working out to your satisfaction OP.
Later tonight or tomorrow I will start a brief thread over in the Bafang section on my buddys build with his Rohloff install on his Exess bike.
Ran into a few issues but nothing to odd.
Got a few pointers for anybody else adding this option to their ride.
Check it out.

A question for both of the Rock ń Rohloff'rs....
With the Rohloff having a rating of maximum input torque of 130 Nm... and the Ultra exceeding that by 23% rated at 160Nm output... Did you inquire if this may void any potential warranty claims?
I'm assuming that either way it wasn't enough to dissuade you... but any concerns?

 

[Tom@WashDC]

Question for you both....
With the Rohloff having a rating of maximum input torque of 130 Nm... and the Ultra exceeding that by 23% rated at 160Nm output... Did you inquire if this may void any potential warranty claims?
I'm assuming that either way it wasn't enough to dissuade you... but any concerns?

Correct, all things being equal it would not have dissuaded me. So everything I say must be taken with a "grain of salt". I did some basic research using online torque calculators, watching videos (like this), Reading Sheldon Brown's Torque In The Drivetrain, understanding the Rohloff gear sizing chart, talking to the Rohloff dealer, and some Rohloff owners that are running the hub with 2.0-2.5KW systems for at least a year.

First off, the Rohloff hub utilizes 9 nylon Coupling Pins that will shear (shear pins) if you exceed some unknown torque value. The pins are replaceable. The hubs internal components are safe from damage as the hub will spin uselessly without spinning the tire. So no problem there. You will need to walk home and fix it, or send it off to get fixed. So what we are talking about here is always the amount of force needed to shear the nylon Coupling Pins, not break the hub.

In talking to Peter, owner of the Peter White Cycles, he indicated that he has never had to replace the pins. He also indicated that Rohloff does make steel Coupling Pins for Tandem Bike Hubs where the torque forces can be extremely high at the cranks. Two humans can easily exceed 160nm at the cranks. If Rohloff does makes steel pins, I would posit that the hub torque rating may be engineered for torque forces that are higher than the specs would indicate. Just a thought.

Peter is a wheel builder since 1969, and his web site claims that he along with Propel Bikes, are the "the only authorized service centers for Rohloff in North America". In my search for a dealer that carried the Rohloff Measuring kit, I called many "distributors" and bike stores that carried Rohloff parts, none of them could get me the kit in a timely fashion. I finally contacted the Rohloff rep in Germany for US, GB, AUS, and he put me in touch with Peter White Cycles. Peter has a shipment coming from Rohloff Germany on a weekly basis. He apparently does a robust business with Rohloff.

Back to the torque forces. So the torque on the Ultra is purported to be peak 160nm at the crank (output torque). The torque force that you need to be concerned about is the torque that is mediated by the transmission, and delivered to the rear cog (hub input torque), which is not the same as the crank output torque. In most applications it will be less than the torque at the crank. The torque at the rear cog that is applied at a standstill is the most important consideration. That is where the rotational force of the hub is trying to overcome the dead weight of the bike and rider at a standstill, the most probable point of over-torque failure.

The final input torque forces at the rear cog can be calculated using various online calculators and formulas, and I did run a few scenarios. After reading and calculating, and talking to owners and the dealer, I figured that I would not be exceeding the Rohloff recommended input torque at the cog. If I applied maximum motor torque, and human power, from a standstill, maybe, but I don't see that happening. And, if I know my German Engineering, the hub is probably over engineered compared to the spec rating. The worse case scenario is that I might end up replacing coupling pins one day if I really over-torque the hub, but I won't damage the hub. While it would be a pain to replace pins, the first time around, I would consider it another part of the learning curve, and not likely to happen.

I followed the Rohloff guide to sizing the rear cog. "To prevent overstraining the hub, a minimum sprocket ratio of 1.90 must be used" (a ratio of 2.5 for Tandems. see page 19 of manual). I have a 40T chainring. 40/1.9 = 21T Cog in the rear. I am using a 16T rear cog, so my ratio of 2.5 is well above the 1.9 ratio threshold. This combo seems to work for me. Anecdotally, after 400 miles I have never felt anything close to undue strain on the system. I know what excessive "strain" feels like as I've managed to snap four chains, and destroy the hub pawls twice while riding a Bafang BBSHD or my Bafang Ultra. Obviously there are other factors involved in those events such as chain wear/age, hub/pawl wear, being caught in the wrong gear on a hill in the wrong PAS level, faulty derailleur, and finally, my initial lack of experience with ebike riding/shifting in the beginning. With the Rohloff hub, I find I am never caught in the wrong gear, and I have never needed to use my throttle.

After reading all the theory, collecting anecdotal evidence, and riding the hub for 500+ miles, I am not overly concerned about shearing the coupling pins. I read on the board here where Pushkar from WattWagons maxed out the Rohloff and the Kindernay hubs up to 250Nm on a 2,300 watt bike, from a dead stop, without shearing the pins, or damaging either hub.

I hope this rambling post helps, and I will do a 500 mile review shortly.

~Damn the torpedoes, full steam ahead!

 

[greeno]

Whew! What he said.

 

[greeno]

One additional note even though my buddy’s bike has the 2200w version motor he uses the ECO mode 100% of the time.
Why he got the higher output motor I couldn’t tell ya.
He’s a more is better kind of guy where I’m a bit more minimal in my builds.

 

[Gionnirocket]

If I do end up in this club... I too am not overly concerned as it'll be a tamed down version of the ultra as I appreciate and will program for a smooth and natural feel. Not that I wouldn't get on it on occasion, but most of the time I ride relaxed. My main reason for searching for an ultra bike is adding torque sensing to my current BBS02B experience. Also I'm a firm believer if you use something at 80% of its rating you end up with a very dependable unit.
With the quality control of Rohloff it's probably not a concern... But in the rare case of a defective unit a few months in... I'd be tick'd if warranty was denied, especially knowing how it's being used.

Torpedoes loaded tubes 1 and 2!

 

[Tom@WashDC]

If I do end up in this club... I too am not overly concerned as it'll be a tamed down version of the ultra as I appreciate and will program for a smooth and natural feel. Not that I wouldn't get on it on occasion, but most of the time I ride relaxed. My main reason for searching for an ultra bike is adding torque sensing to my current BBS02B experience. Also I'm a firm believer if you use something at 80% of its rating you end up with a very dependable unit.
With the quality control of Rohloff it's probably not a concern... But in the rare case of a defective unit a few months in... I'd be tick'd if warranty was denied, especially knowing how it's being used.

Torpedoes loaded tubes 1 and 2!

I hear you. I'll be pissed too if it's defective. I ride aggressively, but I don't ride my motor hard. When I got my BBSHD I was pretty inexperienced, had a freewheel instead of decent cassette, cheap chains, and I was not very efficient at shifting and using the correct gear. Now I ride aggressively on the terrain but I take great care for my motor and transmission. When I had my BBSHD I was obsessed with getting the PEAK Gear because I thought for sure I was going to melt the innards. I ran some temperature tests of my motor in the summer. Couldn't warm up a cup of coffee on the temps I was running at and I thought I was gonna burn it up! Peak Gear still sitting in a box.

BTW, this DIY grip mounted PAS switch that I made in January, in combo with the UltraMag and the Rohloff hub, It's still the "Cat's Meow"!

 

[Tom@WashDC]

I am convinced of the Rohloff reliability, but it's always nice to see something like this

 

[Gionnirocket]

I am convinced of the Rohloff reliability, but it's always nice to see something like this

View attachment 154744

Well when grandpa straps a BBSHD on that thing and takes a few more laps. . . then maybe I'll sleep better

 

[Viking1]

Excellent work!! I love the internal gear hubs as well and miss the one I used to have with my Dekra. It was a 3 speed Nexus IGH. It also had the cool factor of shaft drive.

 

[Tom@WashDC]

For those concerned about exceeding torque limits on the Rohloff hub with an electric bike, I did some research on how to repair the nylon Coupling Pins, which are designed to be the first point of failure. By design, if too much input torque is applied to the hub, the pins will "shear" non-destructively, keeping the internal gear mechanisms safe from damage. In keeping with my Boy Scout motto, "Be Prepared", I wanted to find out what type repair process this would be. I'm still waiting on a quote from the Rohloff authorized service center on how much they would charge to repair the hub, plus shipping. I'll report back when they get back to me with their quote.

It appears their service quote, has been loaded into a satchel, which has been fastened to a mule, that is rounding a mountain bend, and fording a stream, somewhere, in some distant land, en route to me.

I think the repair looks easy, theoretically. First time around, it might take an hour, once you have removed the wheel from the bike. You don't need to remove the hub from the spoke lacings!

Required Tools
A Rohloff sprocket remover tool. (for A12 148mm hub)
25mm wrench
Chain whip
Torx TX20 driver.
Grease.
Rubber mallet (maybe)
Required Parts
9 replacement coupling pins.
Paper gasket (maybe)
Oil change kit

Here is a video on how to remove the sprocket.
How to remove the internal gear assembly

I'm gonna take it apart, in the near future, just to see....

 

[AHicks]

For those concerned about exceeding torque limits on the Rohloff hub with an electric bike, I did some research on how to repair the Nylon Coupling pins, which are designed to be the first point of failure. I referred to them as "shear pins" earlier, which is more in line with their function. By design, if too much input torque is applied to the hub, the pins will "shear" non-destructively, keeping the internal gear mechanisms safe from damage. In keeping with my Boy Scout motto, "Be Prepared", I wanted to find out what type repair process this would be. I'm still waiting on a quote from the Rohloff authorized service center on how much they would charge to repair the hub, plus shipping. I'll report back when they get back to me with their quote.

It appears their service quote, has been loaded into a backpack, which has been fastened to a mule, that is rounding a mountain bend, and fording a stream, somewhere, in some distant land, en route to me.

They send via dog sled. Waiting for snow in hell....

 

[greeno]

As far as being being able to service or repair these hubs ourselves I would say it's doable for sure.

Would it void the warranty? Probably so ya got that.

I have taken apart my Ultra and serviced it as I needed and noing full well Im on my own as far as warranty goes.
Seeing how I got zero help from the company I purchased it from and that goes for the frame I got from them as well.
Contacted Exess in Germany by e-mail and got multiple pivots and proprietary bolts and such directly for my frame so yeah it's on me all the way.

Years ago I used to have a Sturmy Archer internal 3 sad hub on my bike and I took that apart a few times with no issues.

Being able to work on equipment myself as some of you guys do also gives me confidence to pretty much do anything I need to.
Hell if I can make battery packs and not kill myself or anyone else I think Im good diving into a rohloff hub.
Hopefully that will never happen but if it does I wouldn't give it a second thought.

Waiting for a reply or a fix from some of these companies is a waste of time and as I get older thats the most important thing, time.

 

[Tom@WashDC]

I was talking to the authorized Rohloff service center, asking general questions about replacing the nylon Coupling Pins in the future in case of failure. He laughed and said, "we haven't replaced any, just change the oil every 3,100 miles, go have fun and ride, and call me in 10 years".