IGH Weight Difference - Kindernay VII and Enviolo Heavy Duty wheels with tires

[Ravi Kempaiah]

One of our customers upgraded from Enviolo Heavy Duty to Kindernay VII IGH. In the process, we also upgraded the tire from Schwalbe Super Moto-X to Schwalbe Johnny Watts.
We noticed some drastic changes in the weight difference and handling.

• While the Enviolo Heavy Duty IGH is excellent, it weighs a bit and has a 380% gear range.
• Kindernay VII is by far the lightest IGH that can handle 150+ Nm of torque and has a 428% gear range. As you can see from the picture, it makes a difference.
• Some of the weight difference is also from the tire itself.
• Including the front and rear tire change and going with Kindernay VII saved about 4.5lbs of weight. Tire mass is rotational weight, and overall, saving ~4.5lbs made the bike accelerate quicker and a bit more nimble.
• Advantages of Johnny Watts: better rubber (ADDIX compound), better sidewalls, tread designed for all-round usage, and being a foldable bead, it is possible to go tubeless even though they don't advertise TLE.
  Perfect for trail riding and off-road use without purchasing a different bike.
• Kindernay is quickly becoming popular with our employees, if it matters anything

As Cycling About wrote, compared to a traditional drivetrain, Kindernay VII offers a whole lot of advantages of low maintainance, belt drive system without a lot of weight penalty.
Now, chains are heavier than belts, and the overall system might be on par.

 

[scrambler]

I Love my Kindernay VII

 

[vincent]

Thanks for posting this Ravi!
great info to have

ok what about the rohloff next to these 2?

 

[tomjasz]

I Love my Kindernay VII

With the Euro/USD nearly 1/1 it’s a good time to buy...

 

[kevinmccune]

Good grief I would take the extra pound with all those advantages any day!That tire andrim( and drive) combo seems worthwhile, the quest for featherweight continues, what about the cost,premium derailleurs are not cheap either?

 

[Deacon Blues]

I have this exact combo on my new Watt Wagons Hydra MTB. So far I'm very happy with both.

 

[pugachevsoul]

Hey everyone, I was trying to research efficiency figures of IGHs vs derailleur and I read somewhere ( not authoritative, I don't think) that the enviolo-380 has an 85% efficiency.
I also read that the Rohloff is much better than that, but not as efficient as a clean, well-maintained chain derailleur. I could not find anything about the kindernay-7.

Is there information out there comparing the efficiency of these systems...?

 

[pugachevsoul]

I Love my Kindernay VII

Hey @scrambler, how is the kindernay on hill climbs and long flats.. I am wondering if the gear-range is a good fit for touring..?

 

[retiredNH]

Including labor to build up the wheel, this must have been one expensive upgrade. Ravi, what was the cost per pound saved? CDN is OK.

 

[kevinmccune]

Hey everyone, I was trying to research efficiency figures of IGHs vs derailleur and I read somewhere ( not authoritative, I don't think) that the enviolo-380 has an 85% efficiency.
I also read that the Rohloff is much better than that, but not as efficient as a clean, well-maintained chain derailleur. I could not find anything about the kindernay-7.

Is there information out there comparing the efficiency of these systems...?

Thats the rub, the IGH(especially belt drive) will give better average performance Peace of mind is priceless and with the motor helping us out( sort of a hybrid affair) we do not need all those gears, now the People that really get the good out of a large range cassette are usually seasoned better riders, even in this hilly region I just leave the freewheel in "5th" gear, because I am not fast or powerful it suits Me fine, its even making me consider a single speed. My average usually works out to 12 mph or a bit slower on the steep parts(8-9 mph) twelve mph is a mile in five minutes suits Me fine. My standard loop is around 16 miles which I can usually complete in about 90 minutes( depending on how many times I stop to shed clothes or throw rocks off the not-so-smooth roadbed.The part I do not like is the ( even in full aero drag) are the 35 and around 40 mph hill descents. One of these days I may hit a Deer or someone hogging the road my brakes need replacing now one reason my upcoming build has a regen function. I was going to use the 3 spd IGH on it but decided to leave the 7 spd freewheel drive intact, I am sort of looking for an old cruiser to pair the 3 spd with, who knows what may happen( GRIN is starting to get my attention)

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

Thanks for posting this Ravi!
great info to have

ok what about the rohloff next to these 2?

We will be releasing that info this week.

Including labor to build up the wheel, this must have been one expensive upgrade. Ravi, what was the cost per pound saved? CDN is OK.

I guess it's not just the cost per se that is very appealing.
The ride quality, agility rendered by less rotational mass, and the low-maintenance aspect draws serious attention. Many serious riders clock several thousands of miles yearly, and having a robust, low-maintenance bike becomes key.

Here are some close-up pictures. If you look at the handlebar, it is super clean. We built this bike for a friend of ours who lives in Freeport, IL

 

[pugachevsoul]

We will be releasing that info this week.


I guess it's not just the cost per se that is very appealing.
The ride quality, agility rendered by less rotational mass, and the low-maintenance aspect draws serious attention. Many serious riders clock several thousands of miles yearly, and having a robust, low-maintenance bike becomes key.

Here are some close-up pictures. If you look at the handlebar, it is super clean. We built this bike for a friend of ours who lives in Freeport, IL

View attachment 133666

View attachment 133667

View attachment 133668

I would appreciate the efficiency comparison of kindernay and rohloff if they are available...

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

I would appreciate the efficiency comparison of kindernay and rohloff if they are available...

I have reached out to Kindernay for more clarification on this.
I would expect it to be in the 90% range given the internal gears in oil bath design. I will report once I hear back from Kindernay.

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

Some interesting tidbit from Cycling About.

Original source mostly focused on pedal bikes but they do have commentary on E-bikes: https://www.cyclingabout.com/kindernay-vii-gearbox-hub/

Kindernay VII and eBikes​

A Specialized Kenevo enduro eBike might be the perfect use case for the Kindernay VII hub.
It’s worth noting that big gear steps work particularly well on eBikes.
This is because electric bikes accelerate much faster than regular bikes, so riders will often find themselves shifting two or more gears at a time. SRAM has recognized this as a problem on eBikes and makes a cassette called the EX1 with 24% average gear steps.
Due to the higher overall bike weights and power assistance, the added weight of a Kindernay hub works out to be less significant on an eBike too.

 

[tomjasz]

Today USD TO EURO 1 to 1. Making some buys today!

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

I would appreciate the efficiency comparison of kindernay and rohloff if they are available...

Response from Kindernay.
We currently don’t have an official statement about efficiency, but we have a test rig developed in-house to test and compare various gear hubs. The rig is set up with an eddy-current brake and high-fidelity HBM measuring equipment. The testing is not complete, but we can share some of the data we have so far The VII is essentially identical mechanically to the XIV without the reduction gear, hence the efficiency is similar to the XIV in 8-14th gear as shown below:

As the data shows, the efficiency of the VII is around 96-99 %, depending on the selected gear. 4th gear on the VII (11th on the figure) is 1:1 and will have the best efficiency, while 1st and 7th gear go through both planetary series and have the lower efficiency.

The test is done at 100W, 120 rpm input speed with a 32/16 sprocket setup. Chain losses are excluded from the test data. If compared to a derailleur system, the test data can be multiplied with 98-99% (the efficiency of a typical single-speed setup).

I hope this helps.

 

[AdilDesai]

I have this exact combo on my new Watt Wagons Hydra MTB. So far I'm very happy with both.

Hey @Deacon Blues Hope all is well. What's your use case for the Kindernay? I'm debating between it and the Enviolo offered by @Ravi Kempaiah Anyway, weight isn't much of an issue, but I'm curious to know how your shifting experience is and whether you are over/under pedaling because of the 28% difference in gears. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

My use case is basic city riding with moderate hills (Washington DC).

 

[pugachevsoul]

Response from Kindernay.
We currently don’t have an official statement about efficiency, but we have a test rig developed in-house to test and compare various gear hubs. The rig is set up with an eddy-current brake and high-fidelity HBM measuring equipment. The testing is not complete, but we can share some of the data we have so far The VII is essentially identical mechanically to the XIV without the reduction gear, hence the efficiency is similar to the XIV in 8-14th gear as shown below:

As the data shows, the efficiency of the VII is around 96-99 %, depending on the selected gear. 4th gear on the VII (11th on the figure) is 1:1 and will have the best efficiency, while 1st and 7th gear go through both planetary series and have the lower efficiency.

The test is done at 100W, 120 rpm input speed with a 32/16 sprocket setup. Chain losses are excluded from the test data. If compared to a derailleur system, the test data can be multiplied with 98-99% (the efficiency of a typical single-speed setup).

I hope this helps.

Thank you so much for sharing this information @Ravi Kempaiah

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

Our team created a video on the Kindernay VII Gear Hub oil change procedure.
I hope it is useful for Kindernay IGH users:

 

[scrambler]

This video forgets to mention you are supposed to do a rinse and repeat, and not just change the oil once....
One oil change, run the bike or the wheel for a bit, then change the oil again.