I just sent this message to Biktrix regarding the Unprogrammable Canbus Ultra motor

[FWS EBK]

I am looking at a new Juggernaut Ultra Duo 2.
Does this CANBUS isuue apply to the Bafang 1000 watt motor in that model?
I am new to e bikes, and will be mostly riding on roads/smooth trails, no real “off reading”.

Thanks for any update.

 

[E-Willy]

I am looking at a new Juggernaut Ultra Duo 2.
Does this CANBUS isuue apply to the Bafang 1000 watt motor in that model?
I am new to e bikes, and will be mostly riding on roads/smooth trails, no real “off reading”.

Thanks for any update.

No its got the other type that is programmable

 

[TomD]

I'm not sure that's correct. AFAIK Bafang is in the process of transitioning the Ultra from UART to CANBUS. No guarantee you will get one or the other unless Biktrix has negotiated something where they only get remaining stock of UART motors. At this point I think you're more likely to get a CANBUS motor than UART.

 

[FWS EBK]

There is no more PAS. Only tourqe sensors.

Thanks for the replies…..but is there a way to verify which type drive motor controller (UART or CANBUS) is on the bike?
Also, the on line sales literature says that the Ultra Duo 2, with the M620 1000 watt motor has both cadence and torque sensors. How does that work.
Thanks again for your help.

 

[TomD]

You can verify it once you get your bike (will have different connectors for display).

Not a much magic to how they work. Cadence senses how fast you are pedaling. Torque senses how hard you are pushing on the pedals. Then it's up to the controller what to do with that information to blend in assist from the motor. The stock Bafang programming on the Ultra leaves a lot to be desired in that regard. If you get a UART version you can tune it with a cable and a PC to be much smooter (see FREY smooth tune topic). If you get the CANBUS version you're stuck with the stock programming for now, and presumably at the mercy of future firmware upgrades. I have a M600 motor and to upgrade firmware it requires the BESST dealer tool. That will set you back $100+ assuming Biktrix will sell it to you, if and when new firmware is available. Honestly I would avoid the Ultra for now unless you can guarantee it will be UART. Then again, if you're a throttle jockey it might not matter that much.

 

[FWS EBK]

You can verify it once you get your bike (will have different connectors for display).

Not a much magic to how they work. Cadence senses how fast you are pedaling. Torque senses how hard you are pushing on the pedals. Then it's up to the controller what to do with that information to blend in assist from the motor. The stock Bafang programming on the Ultra leaves a lot to be desired in that regard. If you get a UART version you can tune it with a cable and a PC to be much smooter (see FREY smooth tune topic). If you get the CANBUS version you're stuck with the stock programming for now, and presumably at the mercy of future firmware upgrades. I have a M600 motor and to upgrade firmware it requires the BESST dealer tool. That will set you back $100+ assuming Biktrix will sell it to you, if and when new firmware is available. Honestly I would avoid the Ultra for now unless you can guarantee it will be UART. Then again, if you're a throttle jockey it might not matter that much.

Thanks!
What do you recommend as an alternative to the Ultra Juggernaut at roughly the same specs/price/performance?
I am considering the Surface 604 Rook, Giant Road or Roam, espin Nero, electric bike company Model R, and MOD Berlin
Any suggestions.

 

[TomD]

It's really hard to come up with an alternative to the Ultra. It's a monster mid drive, somewhat unrefined, but oodles of power. Watt Wagons used to be a company I would recommend, due to their superb aftermarket controller for the Ultra, but they're going thru a lot of turmoil right now. If you're considering a rear hub I would look at the upcoming Shatiki from Zen ebikes as it offers a lot of bang for the buck including torque sensor.

Zen Shakti - pictures

Some high-resolution pictures of the Zen Shakti model alpha-build are presented here. Pictures of the final pre-production beta-build will be shared in early 2022. We are very grateful for those who have shown support and interest. We are investing a lot of money and time to bring value to you...

electricbikereview.com

 

[Ridetoglide]

It's really hard to come up with an alternative to the Ultra. It's a monster mid drive, somewhat unrefined, but oodles of power. Watt Wagons used to be a company I would recommend, due to their superb aftermarket controller for the Ultra, but they're going thru a lot of turmoil right now. If you're considering a rear hub I would look at the upcoming Shatiki from Zen ebikes as it offers a lot of bang for the buck including torque sensor.

Zen Shakti - pictures

Some high-resolution pictures of the Zen Shakti model alpha-build are presented here. Pictures of the final pre-production beta-build will be shared in early 2022. We are very grateful for those who have shown support and interest. We are investing a lot of money and time to bring value to you...

electricbikereview.com

I have an Ultra Beast with the Canbus and have been coping with the stock Bafang programming for 6 months now and 400 miles. It is ok at best, i had to get used to it. What the canbus Ultra is not good for is riding slow like less than 15 mph give or take. The motor will cut in and out as there is not enough pressure on the pedals at lighter loads. Riding offroad the canbus ultra ( with stock programming) is must better. I ride in loose sand and there is much more of a load on the motor so assist stays on at a constant speed. Assist 1 has enough power but not too much, and often need assist 2 and 3 so the stock programming is much more suitable offroad.

 

[rtp]

Thanks!
What do you recommend as an alternative to the Ultra Juggernaut at roughly the same specs/price/performance?
I am considering the Surface 604 Rook, Giant Road or Roam, espin Nero, electric bike company Model R, and MOD Berlin
Any suggestions.

Biktrix has been good on responding to emails - I’d confirm they’re shipping CANBUS motors…they said they were for the Monte Capro, but it’s possible they’re shipping UARTs on other bikes. A month or so back, Eunorau said they are shipping UART motors on the Specter - don’t expect much or good support there from what I’ve seen, but it’s an option. Luna Z1s are shipping with UART Ultras, but it’s a FS carbon fiber framed bike.

 

[AHicks]

You can verify it once you get your bike (will have different connectors for display).

Not a much magic to how they work. Cadence senses how fast you are pedaling. Torque senses how hard you are pushing on the pedals. Then it's up to the controller what to do with that information to blend in assist from the motor. The stock Bafang programming on the Ultra leaves a lot to be desired in that regard. If you get a UART version you can tune it with a cable and a PC to be much smooter (see FREY smooth tune topic). If you get the CANBUS version you're stuck with the stock programming for now, and presumably at the mercy of future firmware upgrades. I have a M600 motor and to upgrade firmware it requires the BESST dealer tool. That will set you back $100+ assuming Biktrix will sell it to you, if and when new firmware is available. Honestly I would avoid the Ultra for now unless you can guarantee it will be UART. Then again, if you're a throttle jockey it might not matter that much.

Cadence sensor senses you ARE pedaling, Speed sensor says how fast you're doing that, and then of course the Torque sensor senses how hard you're pushing on the pedals. Regarding the Ultra, the Frey Smooth tune makes all the difference in the world when talking low speed control/response. Turns many Ultra complaints into big grins....

My opinion regarding the CANbus Ultra not good right now either. Having now been spoiled rotten with a UART based Ultra, if I needed a new one right away, I'd be looking at an aftermarket controller as part of the package, after confirming THEY will work on CAN bus motors.

Worth mentioning maybe, there's also the BBSHD. Same power as the Ultra, minus the torque sensing, also without the Ultra's steel gear noise. Same issue regarding programming though, so confirm what you are getting before paying....

Given the options at the moment, the M600 is making a lot of friends....

 

[Ridetoglide]

Cadence sensor senses you ARE pedaling, Speed sensor says how fast you're doing that, and then of course the Torque sensor senses how hard you're pushing on the pedals. Regarding the Ultra, the Frey Smooth tune makes all the difference in the world when talking low speed control/response. Turns many Ultra complaints into big grins....

My opinion regarding the CANbus Ultra not good right now either. Having now been spoiled rotten with a UART based Ultra, if I needed a new one right away, I'd be looking at an aftermarket controller as part of the package, after confirming THEY will work on CAN bus motors.

Worth mentioning maybe, there's also the BBSHD. Same power as the Ultra, minus the torque sensing, also without the Ultra's steel gear noise. Same issue regarding programming though, so confirm what you are getting before paying....

Given the options at the moment, the M600 is making a lot of friends....

Are there any companies making aftermarket controllers for canbus ultras yet? Ive been keeping an eye out for a luna or watt wagon but have not seen anything yet

 

[Ridetoglide]

Biktrix has an update available, i am not sure if i want to do the update or not at this time. This is the resopnce from Biktrix when i inquired about any updates on the canbus situation:

Hello,

Sorry for the delay in response.

Regarding the Beast Bike CANBUS programming, Our test engineer mentioned that the new file removed the speed limit, lowered the Current Decay/Stop Decay and made the ride a bit more 'peppy'.

However, this is a one-way street and there is no going back so please let me know if you are absolutely sure that you would need this change. Please find attached the pdf of the procedure, we have not made this public since we are required by Bafang to keep the change limited. Please let me know your thoughts so that I can proceed accordingly. In case you DO want to go ahead with this change, You would need to buy the BESST Tool and everything needed to connect the bike with the computer. I would need the Serial Number of your bike and the motor specs (printed on the motor casing) to proceed further.

We will be shutting operations from Dec 25, 2021 until Jan 2, 2022. Please expect to hear back from us in the new year.

Sincerely,

Newton
(Customer Experience Team)

Do you think i should try the update?

 

[tomjasz]

Please find attached the pdf of the procedure, we have not made this public since we are required by Bafang to keep the change limited.

And so Bafang finally gets their way and screw the DIY market and hamstring dealers. What a shame.

 

[AHicks]

The "more peppy" piece would bother me based on the number of complaints generated by the OEM Bafang programming..... Many think it's TOO peppy as received.

Admitted, my purposes demand good low speed control. Others with different priorities may have a different set of 'druthers.

 

[Ridetoglide]

The "more peppy" piece would bother me based on the number of complaints generated by the OEM Bafang programming..... Many think it's TOO peppy as received.

Admitted, my purposes demand good low speed control. Others with different priorities may have a different set of 'druthers.

Agreed... My bike has plenty of pep, i want it to be smoother. I will probably leave it for now. Biktrix has good customer service but i would like to see them become more proactive with the programming like Luna, WW and Frey. Especially now that we can no longer self program the motor

 

[rtp]

Biktrix has an update available, i am not sure if i want to do the update or not at this time. This is the resopnce from Biktrix when i inquired about any updates on the canbus situation:

Hello,

Sorry for the delay in response.

Regarding the Beast Bike CANBUS programming, Our test engineer mentioned that the new file removed the speed limit, lowered the Current Decay/Stop Decay and made the ride a bit more 'peppy'.

However, this is a one-way street and there is no going back so please let me know if you are absolutely sure that you would need this change. Please find attached the pdf of the procedure, we have not made this public since we are required by Bafang to keep the change limited. Please let me know your thoughts so that I can proceed accordingly. In case you DO want to go ahead with this change, You would need to buy the BESST Tool and everything needed to connect the bike with the computer. I would need the Serial Number of your bike and the motor specs (printed on the motor casing) to proceed further.

We will be shutting operations from Dec 25, 2021 until Jan 2, 2022. Please expect to hear back from us in the new year.

Sincerely,

Newton
(Customer Experience Team)

Do you think i should try the update?

This is sort of interesting. I had assumed in Roshan's post in the Monte Capro thread he'd been working with someone, possibly some of the guys from the ebike open source firmware project, on either a controller or a way to send settings to the controller (there's a looong thread on Endless-sphere on this). Now it seems like they have been able to get Bafang to open up very limited settings in the BESST tool.

Lowering the Current/Stop Decay is probably a net overall good thing, as it 'should' reduce the run-on, but what about the general power levels by mode and other settings?

Good to see Biktrix is trying to get some changes made, but I'm not reading that as an overall net positive response if that's all they've been able to get Bafang to 'allow' so far.

You have the PDF and could conceivably compare the 'smooth tune' settings to the default Ultras, and take a look at what Biktrix is able to change to decide if it's 'worth' it, but yeah - probably not looking for more 'pep'...

 

[TomD]

Strange that Biktrix say upgrading the firmware is a one way street. Luna sells the BESST tool with at least 3 different firmwares (for the M600) and pretty sure you can upgrade or downgrade to any of them. My recollection is that some flashed an older version of the firmware to access option to remove speed limit and then flashed a later version to get the best of both worlds.

 

[rtp]

Strange that Biktrix say upgrading the firmware is a one way street. Luna sells the BESST tool with at least 3 different firmwares (for the M600) and pretty sure you can upgrade or downgrade to any of them. My recollection is that some flashed an older version of the firmware to access option to remove speed limit and then flashed a later version to get the best of both worlds.

Yep, there's at least 3 'sets' of firmware out there collected from endless-sphere convos on the open source firmware project in the M600 section (no, it's not the Ultra, but uses BESST as well)..

Guessing Biktrix got Bafang to open some minor settings in an updated BESST tool, although I still don't get how it would be one-way either.. ?

 

[Ridetoglide]

If the motor is no longer going to be programable by the end user i would like to at least see the dealers like biktrix be able to make their own tunes like Luna for the M600

 

[Ridetoglide]

I am temped to try the new file. The way i see it is i am not very happy with the stock programming overall and the only way to move is forward with an updated file