HUB vs MID DRIVE - how can I compare?

All Easy Motion, Specialized and Stromer hub driven bikes have and always have had torque sensors. Some of Pedego bikes do as well.

Thanks. Note I didn't speak in absolutes, I said, "...a lot (or most) mid-drives have a torque sensor on the pedal assist, while few hub drive have that feature..." But I did not say all.

(edited for a missing word that made all the difference)
 
Last edited:
Really agree with Mr. Gold about using the throttle on trails, I find it’s a big benefit

Contrary to popular believe I think most of us use our throttles in very low-speed, more technical situations
 
+1 for mikes bikes post. super in depth. and i definitely second his notion to test ride mid drives vs hubs at whatever bike shops you can to see what feels best for you.

i'm a bit biased (lol) because i own one with a bosch drive, but i like mid drives better overall. they definitely feel more natural and are way more in tune with your pedalling (vs i feel like hubs tend to jerk around more for me), and definitely better for hill climbing if you plan on riding some terrain (which it sounds like you are).

if you can spring for one, go for it. but yeah, testing them back to back is the best litmus test.
 
Pedal strikes are easily avoided by learning to ratchet. you definitely do not need a throttle with an ebike, maybe you want a moped or lead sled dirtbike. Also, check out Haibikes offerings for the low end of mid-drives around 2k. The prices are coming down but not for the top shelf stuff.
 
Very comprehensive post by Mike here.

In terms of low quality mid-drives under $2,000 - yes, TAD.... This needs to be clarified. A lot of bikes out there with Bafang BBS mid-drive starting from about $1,800. BBS can't be compared to Bosch or Yamaha, but it works, and bike frames are adequate gauge. This is not a Walmart toy that would fall apart within a week. I also like that Bafang, unlike some big names, equip their mid-drive with a throttle.

SV - not sure about Colorado terrain - not really a flat country, as I recall. You probably have some places/trails in mind. Good point by other riders on fat tires - something to consider. Really helps on snow and sand.
 
Deleted Member 4210! Thanks for the truly educational post. Forums like this inspire great posts like yours which in turn inspire many, many people to be part of this unique world.

My budget can go as high as $5k per bike (I need two - one for me - one for the misses) but want to make an informed decision. I would rather purchase a $2,500 bike that is 95% of the $5,000 bike.... but if the $5,000 bike is 50% better than the $2,500... then it is worth the upgrade. I'm going to be using the heck out of these bikes and really want one that I totally smile each time I get on it.

Thanks all! _steve
 
If you want a do everything (well almost) durable bike with great mileage, 28mph assist and a throttle that can go to 28mph, take a look at Ohm Sport. Tremendous build quality and componentry.
 
I ride a Bosch CX series mid-drive bike. I recently rode a rail-to-trail near my home for about 9 miles. I am 65, and am ‘relearning’ cycling ; the last time I cycled was in the early 80’s. I was going along great at about 14 MPH, a speed which was comfortable for me. A guy on a recumbent trike BLEW past me and disappeared over the course of ten minutes or so. After several miles the grade increased, and I started to catch him. I wasn’t really trying, as my cyclic rate was the same. So I zoomed past him on the next incline. Again, it wasn’t a race, we were both doing our most comfortable pace, but the e-bike made the almost imperceptible difference when a hill climb came into the picture. For me, it was a world of difference. I FELT LIKE A KID AGAIN.
 
SV, time to get "moving" :)

Like Sonoboy and others before him indicated - there is no one for all scale. There is no $X bike that is Y times better than $Z bike, you can't put numbers on it. You need to know your needs, in terms of terrain, distance, speed, posture. The best way to find out is to try it out (and even then there is a chance to make a poor decision). It is very likely that you will need 4" tires - to make your own way as you said - and the first challenge will be to find a shop that carry fat models that you've decided on, more-less. Not to mention testing it in real life conditions with sand, rocks, fallen trees.

Once you are past $1,000-1,200 (Mike is right, it's mostly cr-ap below this point), double increase in price results in double increase of repairs cost, usually. Proprietary motors, proprietary batteries - and they will all fail in not too distant future. Long life of some expensive kits and motors is partially a result of their low power and no throttle, some won't start until you accelerate to certain minimum speed or put some efforts in, to wake up the torque sensor. Higher tier mechanical components (brakes, derailleurs, tires, spokes) is a different thing though.
 
Last edited:
For me, one of the big draws of geared hub motors is simplicity. I don’t have much experience with mid-drives, but as I understand it, gear selection is more important than with a hub. They’re better at climbing hills, but only if you’re in the right gear. I think of a hub motor like a car automatic transmission, and a mid-drive like a stick shift. A stick is more versatile and offers more control but requires more effort.
 
Deleted Member 4210! Thanks for the truly educational post. Forums like this inspire great posts like yours which in turn inspire many, many people to be part of this unique world.

My budget can go as high as $5k per bike (I need two - one for me - one for the misses) but want to make an informed decision. I would rather purchase a $2,500 bike that is 95% of the $5,000 bike.... but if the $5,000 bike is 50% better than the $2,500... then it is worth the upgrade. I'm going to be using the heck out of these bikes and really want one that I totally smile each time I get on it.

Thanks all! _steve
Check out the Trek Super Commuter.
 
For me, one of the big draws of geared hub motors is simplicity. I don’t have much experience with mid-drives, but as I understand it, gear selection is more important than with a hub. They’re better at climbing hills, but only if you’re in the right gear.

People with mid-drives will correct me, but here is how I see it:
Mids are "always" more efficient on steep hills. The range of leverage is wider than with a hub, though you can of course make it harder both for you and motor, by up-shifting all the way to the "wrong" gear so that both you and motor would stall. A hub would then stall too, because it doesn't run well at low RPM.

Mids require less power from motor, so they can get away with lower wattage and thus increase range per battery. This is more evident (much more) on steep hills than on flat terrain.

Simplicity of hubs is when it comes to replacement. Lower cost of parts and simpler/cheaper labor.
 
Last edited:
Check out the Trek Super Commuter.

Test rode this bike at the ebike Expo and it was one of my favorite bikes out of approx 25 different makes and models tested over a 2 day period. Yes, it has the Bosch Performance mid-drive, but seems to be tuned perfectly for this bike, I would put this up against the Stromer ST1 and 2 as far as performance any day. Being a speed Pedelec, the motor puts you into 28mph quickly with very little hesitation. The Brose' mid-drive motor did not perform as well. A bit more sluggish IMHO.
 
I've had zero problems with a geared hub on 15% grades. That is pretty radically steep. I measured one with a level & a scale; there are no warning "grade ahead" signs here. These grades are 50 to 100' long in my area, so no knowledge yet how heat buildup could cause thermal trip. I coast or pedal on the flat 60% of the time. The time I drove in Colorado from Chalmez to Alimosa there was a long 6% grade, and on highway 160 from Alimosa east there was a long 8% grade. I don't know how a geared hub would work there, but I would be nervous ridiing a bicycle at 12 mph on a main highway like that, anyway.
All these blanket statements about how bad hubs are on grades don't consider the difference between geared hubs, and direct drive hubs. Electric motors are efficient spinning at the AC drive frequency, and very inefficient lugging. I learned that in the factory, where proper reduction to make a conveyor motor spin in the right range affects motor life greatly.
The level of investment of power wheel versus hub drive is waaay different. I've got $250 in my bike with hub drive, and $430 for the 15 AH battery. Hub drive allowed me to adapt a bike with an obsolete crankset for pedal speed pickup, something no mid-drive vendor website was willing to address. My rear sprockets aren't even compatible with mid drive ; since 1995 chains have been narrower. If the power wheel only lasts a year, $200 more next year wouldn't annoy me greatly. If the failure happens on the road, with the one-way clutch in the hub, I can always pedal home just like the old way, with no extra drag.
I'm not trying 28 mph and I'm not doing burnouts or anything that would radically stress the probably plastic reduction gears.
If there is anything I don't like about my $680 conversion, it is that the disk brake rotor won't fit in the front fork. I'm not going to run over 15 mph anyway except on short downhills in a very rural area: not with rim brakes
 
Last edited:
I am researching the heck out of a bike I can use as an overland trail bike. We have a Winnebago Revel on the way and need to match it up with a bike that can get us around some cool trails.

I've noticed some bikes have the option of a 350 w Mid Drive and a 500 w Hub Drive. Can someone help me compare these? I know there are some positives and negatives to both.....

BTW - such a great forum ! This site rules!
A while back there was a cyclist (Adam Alter) who owns both the 350 watt mid drive (Focus Aventura Impulse speed) and 500 watt direct hub drive (Stromer st2) and he compared the two going up a steep uphill road. His video got lots of views but for some reason, it was taken down.
https://plus.google.com/101834765168487054831/posts/XdyFv49Jyd3
He exerted basically the same effort for the 2 ebikes but the Stromer was way faster than the Focus. he also mentioned that the Stromer's motor was a lot hotter compared to the Focus. There were lots of comments and theories on the posting. However, there was a big white elephant that they never talked about. And that was the raw power of the motors themselves (500 watts vs 350 watts). So I asked in the comment section on the energy consumed from the battery between the 2 ebikes, since the more energy you use the faster your ebike runs (isn't that obvious?). I did not get a response but the video was gone since then. And also, the more power exerted by the motor the more heat is generated, which supports the scenario where Adam mentioned the Stromer's motor was hotter.

As long as the motor can spin, the more significant factor in the performance is the wattage rating. The mid drive has the advantage on very steep hills but it is still slower overall (due to lower wattage), but it also has more range per watts consumed overall. For the same size battery the 350 watt mid drive ebike can go farther but a little slower.

The Hub drive's disadvantage is that it needs to be moving a little faster before you can take take full advantage of the motor and it is has an efficiency window to which speed it operates. Many direct drives tends to have the efficiency widow in the higher speed range 15 mph - 26 mph, while the geared hub drives tend to have the efficiency window at the lower speed range 5 mph - 18 mph (except for the speed hubs).
 
Last edited:
He exerted basically the same effort for the 2 ebikes but the {500w DD hub} Stromer was way faster than the {350W mid} Focus. he also mentioned that the Stromer's motor was a lot hotter compared to the Focus. ... So I asked in the comment section on the energy consumed from the battery between the 2 ebikes, since the more energy you use the faster your ebike runs (isn't that obvious?).
This is not simple. You've TAD answered this question yourself: " The Hub drive's disadvantage is that it needs to be moving a little faster before you can take take full advantage of the motor". On incline a hub is operating with lower efficiency than mid-drive, this is true for both geared hubs and DD . As a result, hub uses more energy per mile of incline and getting hot. When you have much more powerful hub than a mid - 500W is 40% more than 350W, this is a lot - it is possible that it it will run faster than mid. Those 2 bikes were different in more than just wattage and type of drive - different curves of efficiency, different controllers, God knows what else.

Though I've revisited this thread to ask something else - in Mike's post: "Bafang is coming out with new levels of performance and tiered levels of better quality, so again, not all Bafangs are equal ".
I know that Bafang makes 3 or 4 hubs of different wattage, from 250W to 750W, and 3 or 4 different mids, from 250W to 1,000W nominal. Different wattage. They had some 250W hubs with different model numbers and slight variations in specs. It could be that they have been toying with higher-wattage mid-drives, changing something there in specs sometimes. Those high-wattage mids are new, still developing and improving, I got that. But "tiered levels quality"? Would really like to know more. Especially if it's related to hubs.
 
Last edited:
I am researching the heck out of a bike I can use as an overland trail bike. We have a Winnebago Revel on the way and need to match it up with a bike that can get us around some cool trails.

I've noticed some bikes have the option of a 350 w Mid Drive and a 500 w Hub Drive. Can someone help me compare these? I know there are some positives and negatives to both.....

BTW - such a great forum ! This site rules!
The Revel is Winnebago's attempt to capture the extreme off road RV market. Some of the #vanlife people want 4wd. I assume you would want some sort of very serious off road ebikes. That would be mid-drive territory.

You really have to say where you are starting, what sorts of trails, if you are going to use a 4x4 in low range to get there (or not). I used to have a Tacoma with 4wd low. It would go up some nasty roads. Find bikes that match what you are doing.
 
To the OP and others ready to jump into the eBike game…..

Roads generally aren’t all flat and straight. Earlier in this thread I stated that “You will work harder riding a 500 watt hub bike than a 350 watt mid-drive.”

Electric motors need to spin, laboring a motor at low rpm will generate heat. An extended work load, and especially lugging, can create enough heat to burn the windings which will lead to internal shorting. To ease the burden of the motor, manufacturers created geared hubs with an internal planetary reduction. By itself, though, that ratio is not enough to keep the motor happy under load. Because the hub is a fixed part of the wheel, to keep motor rpm in the safe no-heat zone a rider needs to keep the wheel rotating at a minimum speed. Under load, if a hub is rotated at less than 50% of its rated top speed, it will heat up. In spite of a hill's steepness, the rider still needs to maintain that minimum safe hub/wheel rotation speed. As the grade angle increases the rider’s only option is to shift to larger cogs in the rear cluster to reduce the work. That does lower the leg load but it also increases the crank’s rotational speed. Up a long and/or steep hill a continuous rapid spin can be quite arduous. Essentially, with a hub system you are there to 'assist the motor' while climbing, or it won’t assist you. The common work-around is to get a higher watt hub for more power. That will make a noticeable difference in boost, but bigger hubs have larger windings which contain more copper and add more weight. Larger windings are hungry and need large batteries which also add weight. Bigger motors also draw more current which will reduce the range per charge.

Similar to geared hubs, mid-drives also have primary internal gear reduction. Unlike hub-drives, though, a mid’s primary power is then routed to the bike’s rear cluster. That secondary reduction substantially reduces motor load so within normal riding parameters it never lugs or overheats. The mid rider isn’t enslaved to maintain a minimum road speed to keep the motor cool. Instead, a comfortable pedal cadence at any road speed is workable. The wider gearing range also allows the use of a smaller and lighter motor which can function with a lighter weight battery. Manufacturers don’t fit larger batteries to mid-drive bikes to feed hungry windings, it’s done to extend range.

Most of the pros and cons for both designs have been mentioned, so it’s up to the OP to choose a bike that fits his environment and preferred riding style. The routes I ride are quite hilly so my best choice was a mid-drive which lets me arrive at a destination without sweat-soaked clothing.
 
Last edited:
The biggest advantage of mid drive is the more even weight distribution front-back makes it easier to surmount obstacles. For off-road mid drive is the only way.

For road and gravel hub drives will work very well and have advantages in terms of reliability and effiiency (fewer moving parts). They are quieter and have no problems with shifting under load. But the controllers and motors vary in feel and power and the motors can be bigger and heavier.

Ignore all advice that talks about torque and mechanical advantage of mid - there is none.

So, if big bumps are in the offing - go mid. Otherwise, try both.
 
Last edited:
Back