HUB vs MID DRIVE - how can I compare?

[emco5]

Not trying to argue. Just saying from my personal experience experience of ....
5000+ miles on Easy Motion geared hub motor bikes.
5000+ miles Bosch speed motor based bikes
10,000+ miles Stromer- DD hubs.

I am willing to bet $300 that the new 2017 Easy Motion 650: (Link Removed - No Longer Exists) will outperform any Bosch CX or Bosch speed motor (Haibike Riese and Muller, Focus etc) bike on a moderate terrain of 20 miles with 5-8% grade hills and have more range and power. The price-performance ratio for mid-motor bikes is yet to make a compelling sense. it's simply not there.
Not trying to be arrogant here. It is thousands of hours of saddle time speaking....

Ravi, I know where you are coming from, and kudos for the efforts [seriously, wow]. I've been riding eBikes since 1998 and do not have as many accumulated miles as your records, but I base my opinions on the ride-ability of mids on steep hills [more than 8% in Seattle]. Obviously, a large hub compared to a smaller mid, such as a 350w Bosch, is going to have an energy advantage. Comparing systems of equal wattage and rear gearing, though, a direct or geared hub will not have the muscle to allow a slower climbing speed at a more relaxed cadence like a mid offers. If your bike is heavily loaded, speed up a hill matters a lot less than just getting to the top without cardiac arrest. Sometimes less can be more. Having a lighter weight mid-drive bike that climbs well can be a much better daily ride than a larger/heavier hub bike that might go faster.

 

[TForan]

I have a Biktrix Juggernaut with the Bafang Ultra and it eats steeps hills with fully loaded rear baskets. I tried a hub drive but didn't like the handling. The hub motor weight was very noticeable. It was Ok on the flats but there was no comparison to my bike on hills.

 

[bob armani]

Not trying to argue. Just saying from my personal experience experience of ....
5000+ miles on Easy Motion geared hub motor bikes.
5000+ miles Bosch speed motor based bikes
10,000+ miles Stromer- DD hubs.

I am willing to bet $300 that the new 2017 Easy Motion 650: (Link Removed - No Longer Exists) will outperform any Bosch CX or Bosch speed motor (Haibike Riese and Muller, Focus etc) bike on a moderate terrain of 20 miles with 5-8% grade hills and have more range and power. The price-performance ratio for mid-motor bikes is yet to make a compelling sense. it's simply not there.
Not trying to be arrogant here. It is thousands of hours of saddle time speaking...



Cool analysis buddy!
Maxxon is supplying motors to many OEM's and I wish somebody made a speed pedelec with Maxxon with 750Whr battery. That would be E-bike porn.
it's fun to get into the details but at the end of the day all these bikes are awesome fun.
You should become a content writer for EBR because you do have quite a good handle on all the e-bike related tech.

My two cents: What Ravi is saying makes perfect sense and I concur! The EM 650 he has referenced has a very strong and reliable motor and battery system that is extremely reliable. I have two EM ebikes and they are both efficient as well as great performers. I think 20,000 plus miles on ebikes does not lie. That is the proof in the pudding right there! Kudos to you Ravi with all of those documented miles That is awesome!

 

[Don12]

Wondering why a company like Specialized would eliminate the rear hub drive and go with the mid - drive. The Specialized Turbo S looks like a pretty nice ride.

 

[Trail Cruiser]

Alright, for those engineers, geeks, and nerds out there who want to crunch some numbers, I tabulated the power consumption among the ebikes and incorporated the Maxon data into it. Blue = mid motor, Red= hub motor.
View attachment 19222
SourceS of information are the following:

(Link Removed - No Longer Exists)

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https://www.maxonbikedrive.com/tl_files/content/Downloads/Messbericht_maxon_Bikedrive_BFH.pdf

I am very much impressed on the Maxon's performance. It is different from the typical hub drives in the market today that is represented by the Diavelo in the comparison table. It has the efficiency of the most efficient mid drives but with the ease and drive train durability of the user- friendly hub drive.

I can't find in the internet the unique internal design that makes the motor so efficient, probably, it's a well guarded trade secret for now. However, at $ 2,850.00 per kit (no wheel), it is something to think twice if you really want it for that price.
(Link Removed - No Longer Exists)

Correction: Whistle B ware used 400wh battery (not 500wh).

I have reservations on how the lab comparison was done.
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It was supposed to be a simulated uphill of 3% grade with rider input of 100 watts and equal electric assist of also 100 watts. It’s like the 100% assist on the Bosch PAS, using its sophisticated torque sensor. As a critic to the methodology, my concerns are:

- Input of 100 watts by electric motor to simulate human effort is not sinusoidal pattern which triggered the torque sensors differently.

- The study was done at a simulated uphill of 3% grade. That explains the high energy consumption (understandable but cannot be used to compare outside tests).

- The goal was supposed to be 200 watts (100 watts from rider and 100 watts from electric assist) however, the electric assist does not always provide 100 watts, some ebikes provided higher assist and some lower.

- Sustained rider input of 100 watts is too high for me (older rider) I am more like 70 watts. The test may not always translate in real life with weak riders or very strong riders.

- Does not always translate to real life uphill application since, in a mid drive, you tend to be at a gear that is one step lower due to the loss of momentum on the upshifts. In real life the uphill road speed on mid drives (compared to hub drives) is slower but the mid motor is less strained and has less tendency to overheat. A nuvinci CVT could address the speed issue but is currently financially not feasible to most buyers.

Addendum: The 12-ebike lab tests were actually done at 12% grade and then recalculated or "Normalized" to 3%. A separate test for Maxon was done at 8% grade (not 12%) and then "Normalized" to 3%. That gives another clue, inclines at about 8% or less makes the hub drive perform better than mid drives.

 

[Trail Cruiser]

Technology Bern University of Applied Sciences have conducted an efficiency test and concluded that geared hub drive (Maxxon for example) are most efficient compared to several Bosch and other mid-drive motors.

This should give a solid evidence to prove that mid-drives are not the most ideal in all cases. All this talk of efficiency is just pure talk. I also know from experience that my geared hubs gave me more range than mid-drives. Again, there are + and - to both but simply saying mid-drives are efficient is just BS. Please look at the detailed reports below. I still think a good geared hub motor coupled to a torque sensor gives the best power and range combo. [MAC, Easy motion 2018 geared hubs]

Here is a video:
https://www.srf.ch/play/tv/redirect/detail/bcb452ec-d249-4760-aabf-21a6d3cd5d9a

Summary of the test:
(Link Removed - No Longer Exists)

Reports for each candidate bikes:

Specialzied levo: (Link Removed - No Longer Exists)

Cube Reaction pro: (Link Removed - No Longer Exists)

Bergamont E-roxter: (Link Removed - No Longer Exists)

Haibike hardnine: (Link Removed - No Longer Exists)

Scott E-aspect: (Link Removed - No Longer Exists)

Diavelo e650i: (Link Removed - No Longer Exists)

Giant Dirt- E: (Link Removed - No Longer Exists)

Flyer uproc 2: (Link Removed - No Longer Exists)

Wheeler I-reader HD: (Link Removed - No Longer Exists)

Whistler Bware: (Link Removed - No Longer Exists)

Ghost Kato: (Link Removed - No Longer Exists)

A number of French ebikers in their very recent ebike forum (Nov and Dec 2017) had issues with their Maxon bikedrive, not achieving expectations and had quality issues.

http://partir-en-vtt.com/fsb2/index.php?p=search&mode=author&id=52
It looks like Maxon is still in its infancy in the ebike business. I would rather be interested on a whole ebike product and not just a kit.

There is also a German ebike forum comparing different emtb's and one with Maxon, and another one with BionxD.

https://www.pedelecforum.de/forum/i...ieb-von-maxon-bikedrive-schweiz.27629/page-25

 

[JRA]

That noise would drive me nuts.

 

[Trail Cruiser]

That noise would drive me nuts.

I would predict Maxon would eventually use composite gear in the primary reduction. The load will not be that much since it is equally shared by three reduction gears.

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

Grin Technologies or Ebikes.ca is/was the industry pioneer. They were into the game when EBR and other entities did not even exist.
They have some great products. Apparently, they get asked a lot; "Why don't they carry BBS-HD and market it like Lunacycle?"

Here is their answer.

http://www.ebikes.ca/learn/why-hub-motors-are-awesome.html

I have owned/do own mid-drives and they do have a place in mountain biking but I don't think they would make a compelling case for on-road riding.

When people talk about change in center of gravity, Q-factor of the bottom bracket, width/angle of the bottom bracket, rake angle etc.. it only applies to very finely tuned rider riding on technical terrain.
A good hub motor, good torque sensor has the best price/performance ratio as of now. The lions share of the market is $1500 to $2000 and CCS, RadPower's success can attest to that.

 

[Trail Cruiser]

Grin Technologies or Ebikes.ca is/was the industry pioneer. They were into the game when EBR and other entities did not even exist.
They have some great products. Apparently, they get asked a lot; "Why don't they carry BBS-HD and market it like Lunacycle?"

Here is their answer.

http://www.ebikes.ca/learn/why-hub-motors-are-awesome.html

I have owned/do own mid-drives and they do have a place in mountain biking but I don't think they would make a compelling case for on-road riding.

When people talk about change in center of gravity, Q-factor of the bottom bracket, width/angle of the bottom bracket, rake angle etc.. it only applies to very finely tuned rider riding on technical terrain.
A good hub motor, good torque sensor has the best price/performance ratio as of now. The lions share of the market is $1500 to $2000 and CCS, RadPower's success can attest to that.

I foresee Juicebikes will be an emerging giant since Torah (an engineer himself) is actively and directly involved on the product design and listening to the consumers, making his products very competitive and at the same time very affordable. The "bang for the buck" factor is way high up there.

 

[TForan]

Why would all the big companies ( Yamaha, Brose, Shimano,Trek, Specialized etc) go with mid drive ?

 

[Solom01]

TForan, you may be assuming that big companies do things that are in the best interests of consumers instead of whatever fad is in their best interest. A perfect analogy is car wheels getting bigger and bigger, with many cars now having 20" or bigger wheels. They don't make the car handle better, they use more fuel, and with the pothole filled roads in the northeast they are constantly getting bent and having to be replaced at huge expense, but customers think they look "cool" and wrongly believe that they make the car handle better so that's the way the market is shifting. If I were a big bike company I would see that Europe is a much bigger market for ebikes and they are heavily regulated in ways that favor mid-drives, so why go through the expense of designing a good hub motor if I can just slap the same one on bikes sold in the US? When you add the marketing hype around mid-drives and the way reviewers gush over them it's the smart choice for the companies to make. As an added bonus they can sell them for more and because they place a lot more stress on components it gives LBS shops more profit. All in all a win for everyone, except maybe the consumer. My own opinion is that in the US they probably make sense for mountain bikes but have definite disadvantages for non off-road uses (which is probably how most ebikes are used). They are more expensive, put more wear on the components, make throttles harder to implement and if your chain breaks you're stuck. But as the saying goes, whatever floats your boat.

 

[TForan]

I really don't have definite opinion because I've only ridden about five E-bikes. I was looking at the Juiced Hyperfat but was put off on the delay of delivery.

I did ride a Pedego Fat bike and it was OK but hills were much more challenging than on my bike, which is mid drive. Also, tried a Felt fat bike and a Trek and both seemed a little down on power. As a neophyte I guess I'm not getting the drawbacks of a mid drive. I don't use the throttle and shift it like a regular bike. With the power it has, it's hard to be in a wrong gear. Works great around town and eats off-road hills. Thanks for the info.

 

[flymeaway]

Why would all the big companies ( Yamaha, Brose, Shimano,Trek, Specialized etc) go with mid drive ?

Because the market demand is there, and they work........I've read and reread the endless debate about hub/mid and when you boil it down to the nth degree it's a matter of personal preference. Most ebike riders have ridden or owned both types and for their own reasons end up preferring one system over the other. In the end it becomes a circular debate that never ends.....as witnessed in this thread.

Have fun....whatever you ride.


Court J.

 

[TForan]

Because the market demand is there, and they work........I've read and reread the endless debate about hub/mid and when you boil it down to the nth degree it's a matter of personal preference. Most ebike riders have ridden or owned both types and for their own reasons end up preferring one system over the other. In the end it becomes a circular debate that never ends.....as witnessed in this thread.

Have fun....whatever you ride.


Court J.

I agree. There's a great deal of confirmation bias involved , just like with so many consumer purchases.

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

I agree. There's a great deal of confirmation bias involved , just like with so many consumer purchases.

I love all E-bikes. Plus sized, slim ones, long tails and compact ones... Black ones and white ones.
I think speed bikes are sexy and torque sensing is the tits!

 

[e-boy]

I recently test rode some hub drives .
I ride for transport on paved roads , and can see their advantage .
But the ones I rode were surgey and laggy .
One was an 8fun on an e-Joe , the other was an Easy Motion City Pro .
I tried some Stromer in the past and no hub issue for me there .
So , what are some other top brands , or major brands to try ?

 

[Trail Cruiser]

I recently test rode some hub drives .
I ride for transport on paved roads , and can see their advantage .
But the ones I rode were surgey and laggy .
One was an 8fun on an e-Joe , the other was an Easy Motion City Pro .
I tried some Stromer in the past and no hub issue for me there .
So , what are some other top brands , or major brands to try ?

-Ohm
-Bulls Outlaw
-Smartmotion
-The new generation Easy Motion hub drives
-Juicebikes CCS - Torah names his power assist as "dynamic assist", no jerky on-off propulsion.
-Radcity
-Magnum- some riders report jerky on-off feel at low speeds.

 

[Ken M]

I am researching the heck out of a bike I can use as an overland trail bike. We have a Winnebago Revel on the way and need to match it up with a bike that can get us around some cool trails.

I've noticed some bikes have the option of a 350 w Mid Drive and a 500 w Hub Drive. Can someone help me compare these? I know there are some positives and negatives to both.....

BTW - such a great forum ! This site rules!

I wanted to add some very relevant information that no one seems to ever mention when comparing mid-drives and hub motors.

Mid-drive do tend to be excellent climbing systems because they benefit from the drive ratio of the front to rear sprockets at slow speeds where the torque of the motor can actually be increased to the rear wheel. The problem is that at high speeds that advantage becomes a disadvantage. If you say running at 20mph on a 44T front and 11T rear sprocket only 1/4th the axle torque of the mid-drive is delivered to the rear wheel because of the 4 to 1 reduction to achieve the speed at a reasonable cadence. In my opinion this is the equivalent of inefficiency - decreases the drive system efficiency because an 80nM mid drive will only provide 20nM of torque to the rear axle at that speed.

Hub drives (at least the gear-less more simply ones) do run at lower RPMs which is a less efficient dymanic state for a brushless motor but the torque is delivered directly to the rear axle. So if you are riding at 20mph, a rear hub motor only needs to be providing 20nM to equal the "effective" power of the mid-drive at this speed. The higher the speed the more efficient a rear hub motor becomes so I would venture to say that if you spend a significant % of your riding time over speeds of say 15mph a hub drive may be more efficient and provide more power to the rear wheel.

I would venture to say this is why some of the premium speed pedelecs still utilize hub drive motors.

If you think you will spend the bulk of your riding time below say 15mph and on trails, no doubt get a mid-drive but if you want a fast urbam mobility bike I would give hub drives serious consideration.

I have both a mid drive Haibike and a rear hub Polaris and the Polaris has better fast performance and the Haibike with the Yamaha mid-drive is awesome up to about 15mph. I think the Bosch mid-drives with the smaller front chain ring that spins at 2.5X cadence do provide better high speed assist than the Yamaha but at the cost of some low speed torque to the rear wheel.

 

[Ken M]

-Ohm
-Bulls Outlaw
-Smartmotion
-The new generation Easy Motion hub drives
-Juicebikes CCS - Torah names his power assist as "dynamic assist", no jerky on-off propulsion.
-Radcity
-Magnum- some riders report jerky on-off feel at low speeds.

I tend to think of geared hub motors as unique from gear-less hub motors. While the gear reduction in a geared hub motors certainly provides more torque it does so at the expense of reduced reliability (the internal gears are almost always plastic and they will wear out of time ... I've read that many tend to need replacement every 5,000 - 10,000km while a gear-less hub drive has literally no wear-out expect for the axle bearings which can last up to 100,000km).

The sad result of the motor regulations in Europe usually pushes the technology towards mid-drives because the internal gear reductions multiple the torque of low wattage motors. In the US the 750W regulation provides a unique opportunity for a gear-less hub motor to provide a better solution overall.

Note: In reality the 750W rating is dubious because peak ratings tend to ignore the specification. In reality any motor could be rated at 750W based on a test protocol. Unless both the controller and motor are considered in the drive specification the regulations are of no real legal merit (which is a good thing for anyone really wanting a good performance eBike and not some slow European eBike limited to 20mph max assist speed.

I know now I'll get a bunch of haters telling me that 20mph is fast enough and anything faster is not safe because they are scared to ride faster. Serious get a life and let those that feel comfortable riding at 20-40mph enjoy some assist at those speeds.