How to start on a steep hill

[Acme]

I dearly love my Hydra but the Ultra has one particular shortcoming that always makes me a little jealous of my friends on their underpowered euro spec bikes with almost immediate support from a dead stop on steep technical trails. I spin the rear tire or tap the brakes on a switch back, I’m stopped and it’s very difficult to get started again. Sometimes it takes more than a quarter turn of the cranks before the assist kicks in. On a steep section I am pushing so hard to move the heavy bike the wheel spins when the assist kicks in, the rear of the bike moves sideways and I lose my balance. as the line of guys behind becomes convinced I I really don’t know how to ride.
Trying to get started I discovered if I press the - button the bike will start slowly in walk mode. As the bike starts to move let go of the button, the bike will continue much like after you stop peddling for about 2 second. If you are applying minimal pressure to the pedals the assist will kick in just as the walk mode fades out and I essentially get a running start. As the assist kicks in I add pressure but not enough to spin the wheel.

 

[Merle Nelson]

Sounds exceedingly promising - a great work around. I wonder if a person who knew how to tweak the various settings with the programing cable could set it to better handle this situation in other ways.

Edit: It occurs to me that programmers/riders that don't ride dirt and gravel steep trails like you may not know there is an issue like this to solve.

 

[Cuz Vinny]

I just burn out and get sideways. It’s more fun that way

 

[Gionnirocket]

I dearly love my Hydra but the Ultra has one particular shortcoming that always makes me a little jealous of my friends on their underpowered euro spec bikes with almost immediate support from a dead stop on steep technical trails. I spin the rear tire or tap the brakes on a switch back, I’m stopped and it’s very difficult to get started again. Sometimes it takes more than a quarter turn of the cranks before the assist kicks in. On a steep section I am pushing so hard to move the heavy bike the wheel spins when the assist kicks in, the rear of the bike moves sideways and I lose my balance. as the line of guys behind becomes convinced I I really don’t know how to ride.
Trying to get started I discovered if I press the - button the bike will start slowly in walk mode. As the bike starts to move let go of the button, the bike will continue much like after you stop peddling for about 2 second. If you are applying minimal pressure to the pedals the assist will kick in just as the walk mode fades out and I essentially get a running start. As the assist kicks in I add pressure but not enough to spin the wheel.

I've used the throttle in a similar fashion on the BBS02B... but I'll have to give your approach a try next time,especially if in a tight space.
On programming, I have my Start Degree set to 5 which is about a quarter crank. I like it there as it's a softer start normally and allows for enough chain travel to switch gears under no motor load with a brief pedal pause.
Assuming that you have the X1, I'm not sure if you can lower your Start Degree to 1 for faster motor engagement.

 

[JakEmAll]

Sounds exceedingly promising - a great work around. I wonder if a person who knew how to tweak the various settings with the programing cable could set it to better handle this situation in other ways.

Edit: It occurs to me that programmers/riders that don't ride dirt and gravel steep trails like you may not know there is an issue like this to solve.

I've been thinking that there should be a way to program the motor to respond the way he needs. Throttle should be the quick cheat.

 

[Acme]

I’m always trying not to use the throttle. It just seams like cheating and is so jumpy. As Ebikes get more popular I think they will be checking for them on the more popular trails. I intend to put mine in a bag and just put it on if I need it

 

[JakEmAll]

I’m always trying not to use the throttle. It just seams like cheating and is so jumpy. As Ebikes get more popular I think they will be checking for them on the more popular trails. I intend to put mine in a bag and just put it on if I need it

Being on a bicycle instead of running barefoot is cheating. So if you're gonna cheat, cheat how you want.

I don't use my throttle much either (the bike I use now has the throttle tuned down dramatically), but there are a few times where it makes sense. Your situation seems like it might fit the bill. Again, it may be corrected with programing. I've never played with that, but it seems that adjusting torque response should be possible.

 

[JakEmAll]

I've used the throttle in a similar fashion on the BBS02B... but I'll have to give your approach a try next time,especially if in a tight space.
On programming, I have my Start Degree set to 5 which is about a quarter crank. I like it there as it's a softer start normally and allows for enough chain travel to switch gears under no motor load with a brief pedal pause.
Assuming that you have the X1, I'm not sure if you can lower your Start Degree to 1 for faster motor engagement.

Assuming you can make that change, you should be able to do it for lower pas levels only.

 

[Gionnirocket]

You can definitely.. at least on the BBS tune the throttle down. In this situation I feather it gently to get rolling ...probably a bit faster then you do with Walk Mode, but nothing exceeding a few miles per hour before I start to pedal. I'm just looking to overcome that initial inertia. Make sure that you are in a proper low gear before you start as well.
Is it cheating??? how more then walk mode?? or how more then having a motor?
I use my throttle very sparingly. . but this is one of the instances where I appreciate it.

 

[scrambler]

I dearly love my Hydra but the Ultra has one particular shortcoming that always makes me a little jealous of my friends on their underpowered euro spec bikes with almost immediate support from a dead stop on steep technical trails. I spin the rear tire or tap the brakes on a switch back, I’m stopped and it’s very difficult to get started again. Sometimes it takes more than a quarter turn of the cranks before the assist kicks in. On a steep section I am pushing so hard to move the heavy bike the wheel spins when the assist kicks in, the rear of the bike moves sideways and I lose my balance. as the line of guys behind becomes convinced I I really don’t know how to ride.
Trying to get started I discovered if I press the - button the bike will start slowly in walk mode. As the bike starts to move let go of the button, the bike will continue much like after you stop peddling for about 2 second. If you are applying minimal pressure to the pedals the assist will kick in just as the walk mode fades out and I essentially get a running start. As the assist kicks in I add pressure but not enough to spin the wheel.

This is strange, and I am wondering what controller, assist level, and programming you are using.

The Ultra uses a mix of torque sensing (primary) and cadence sensing. The biggest benefit of Torque sensing over Cadence sensing is that you get an immediate response proportional to the pressure on the pedal, so you have perfect control of the amount of assist at the touch of your feet. The cadence sensor on the contrary, gives you all of the power of the chosen assist level as soon as you have more than a specific rotation on the crank (ON OFF switch).

What you describe looks like you are in a mode where the cadence sensing is predominant or the torque sensing is not working.

I know that on the X1 you can custom program the mix between torque sensing and cadence sensing, but don't know if you have the X1 and if you have changed the programming nor what assist level you are using.

But in an assist mode where torque sensing is the main assist source, it should not behave the way you describe.

 

[onlineaddy]

Does gearing down help?

 

[PedalUma]

I’m always trying not to use the throttle. It just seams like cheating and is so jumpy. As Ebikes get more popular I think they will be checking for them on the more popular trails. I intend to put mine in a bag and just put it on if I need it

One answer would be to design a new product to fill this need. It would not be a throttle by design or law, it would be a button that would give you a moderate amount of power for a brief period, say four seconds. To make the first prototype simple it would last as long as you held it down. Essentially a door bell switch with a variable resistor so you could dial in and set the power amount. The final design could apply a curve to the power so that it did not lurch then quit, but was smoother in application and have a long tapering off. If this product existed, people would pay to have one to keep their bikes class 3.

 

[Gionnirocket]

One answer would be to design a new product to fill this need. It would not be a throttle by design or law, it would be a button that would give you a moderate amount of power for a brief period, say four seconds. To make the first prototype simple it would last as long as you held it down. Essentially a door bell switch with a variable resistor so you could dial in and set the power amount. The final design could apply a curve to the power so that it did not lurch then quit, but was smoother in application and have a long tapering off. If this product existed, people would pay to have one to keep their bikes class 3.

or just use a throttle

 

[TomD]

I’m always trying not to use the throttle. It just seams like cheating and is so jumpy. As Ebikes get more popular I think they will be checking for them on the more popular trails. I intend to put mine in a bag and just put it on if I need it

Did you order your Hydra with restricted or unrestricted throttle? I really like the way the restricted throttle is programmed on my Archon X1. At first I didn't like it because it blends in power much slower than the unrestricted throttle but I found it's really nice to use from a stop when the knees are hurting and I forgot to downshift enough. Might be too much power for your scenario but seems to me you could program it down to do just what you want. I'm a little surprised walk mode gives you enough power to get started.

 

[Merle Nelson]

I dearly love my Hydra but the Ultra has one particular shortcoming that always makes me a little jealous of my friends on their underpowered euro spec bikes with almost immediate support from a dead stop on steep technical trails. I spin the rear tire or tap the brakes on a switch back, I’m stopped and it’s very difficult to get started again. Sometimes it takes more than a quarter turn of the cranks before the assist kicks in. On a steep section I am pushing so hard to move the heavy bike the wheel spins when the assist kicks in, the rear of the bike moves sideways and I lose my balance. as the line of guys behind becomes convinced I I really don’t know how to ride.
Trying to get started I discovered if I press the - button the bike will start slowly in walk mode. As the bike starts to move let go of the button, the bike will continue much like after you stop peddling for about 2 second. If you are applying minimal pressure to the pedals the assist will kick in just as the walk mode fades out and I essentially get a running start. As the assist kicks in I add pressure but not enough to spin the wheel.

Another thing comes to mind as a fix/work around. Do you remember someone replacing their Hall Sensor in the throttle because it wasn't sensitive enough? If you cannot easily feather the throttle (if used) to get started smothly - maybe that is at issue.

 

[Dallant]

Trying to get started I discovered if I press the - button the bike will start slowly in walk mode. As the bike starts to move let go of the button, the bike will continue much like after you stop peddling for about 2 second. If you are applying minimal pressure to the pedals the assist will kick in just as the walk mode fades out and I essentially get a running start. As the assist kicks in I add pressure but not enough to spin the wheel.

Wow, life must be tough for those who don't own Treks.

 

[TomD]

Just just for fun I decided to test this today on a steep hill. I geared down to one away from granny gear. I was surprised that walk mode actually was able to get me going although you really need to follow through with pedaling to keep going. Next I tried starting from restricted throttle. It was much smoother and I didn't necessarily need to start pedaling right away. It actually felt a bit more natural. Next I just tried to start pedaling. It got me going but definitely gave me too much assist once the torque sensor kicked in. I was using pas 3 in eco mode so perhaps I had it a little too high. I think restricted throttle would still be my preference although I appreciate the tip as walk mode might help when throttle is going to spin the rear wheel. All done on pavement so perhaps off-road would be a different story.

 

[Dallant]

What model year is your bike?
Lots of people on this thread owns multiple bikes.
Hydra is a new Bike for most of us.
Of course we are going to ask lots of questions about it.
Forfoxsake. It's a Hotrod man.

I have three but that’s not my point. If it’s such a hot rod, why is it so difficult to get started? I don’t have that problem I guess. i do think Walk mode is an interesting idea to get moving but I’m not sure how good that method would be for the drive train.

 

[TomD]

I have three mid drive bikes ranging from 250W Yanaha to 500W Bafang M600 to 750W+ Bafang ultra. None of them are particularly easy to start on a steep incline off road. I would say the Yamaha might be the least challenging for a novice but only because the bike is lighter. With some experience I would give the nod to my M600 Luna X1 as the extra power is nice to have to keep you going but you really need to know what you're doing to avoid popping a wheelie and pulling a Simon Cowell.

 

[m@Robertson]

This is why I program in gentle throttle response. Throttle overrides whatever BS is harshing my buzz of the moment. Its a tool in the toolbox, and gives me exactly what I want, the moment I need it, and goes away when I tell it to. Use it I say