Hill climber

[mingovia]

There is a very long, steep hill that I must climb any time I want to go anywhere from home.

I am in the market for an ebike, but after studying it for a while I have decided I need these characteristics:

1. 750W continuous power
2. mid-drive
3. less than 50 pounds total weight, including battery
4. torque sensor

Are there any ebikes that meet this criteria? I have looked and looked and have not found one. All the lightweight ebikes seem to have 250W motors.

As a second question: If there are no such existing ebikes, can it be built as a DIY?

Thanks for any help!

 

[jabberwocky]

Motor specs are a largely useless way to compare bikes. Most "250w nominal" bikes will put out much more power than that when needed. That aside, pretty much any mid-drive is going to take you up any hill thats actually ridable. It may not be at 25mph, but the advantage of a mid-drive is you can use the bikes drivetrain to adjust the motors gearing to the back wheel, and a 250w motor plus your average low gearing will crawl up a wall.

If you're set on as much power as you can buy, find a bike that uses a bafang ultra or retrofit a BBSHD, but I don't think you'll stay under 50 pounds with either of these (just a BBSHD motor weighs 13 pounds).

 

[J.R.]

There is a very long, steep hill that I must climb any time I want to go anywhere from home.

I am in the market for an ebike, but after studying it for a while I have decided I need these characteristics:

1. 750W continuous power
2. mid-drive
3. less than 50 pounds total weight, including battery
4. torque sensor

Are there any ebikes that meet this criteria? I have looked and looked and have not found one. All the lightweight ebikes seem to have 250W motors.

As a second question: If there are no such existing ebikes, can it be built as a DIY?

Thanks for any help!

Have you owned or test ridden any ebikes?

We all start with all the unknowns. I'm an older rider, I live on a 900 foot elevation climb, 2.2 mile hill that culminates on an 18% grade. I've ridden that hill on a 250W mid drive, 350W geared hub, 500W geared hub and a 500W direct drive hub. They all do the hill well. If you can do some test riding, you might be discounting some great bikes.

Checkout this: Thread 'DAM!!!' https://electricbikereview.com/forums/threads/dam.32798/

 

[Alaskan]

There is at least one sixty pound bike that meets your other specs. With that level of power the extra weight will not be noticed while riding, but if you have to carry it upstairs, it will. Also specifying wattage is barking up the wrong tree. Wattage is known to be quite variable in the way it is measure with great differences between manufacturers in the way it is reported. However maximum torque is a better indicator of motor support level. A good example is the Evelo Atlas at 600 watt continuous puts out up to 120 Newton Meters of torque. Their Omega uses a similar motor, tuned differently for 750 watt continuous but 115 Newton Meters of torque. The Omega has marginally less power even though it has a higher wattage rating.

Check out the Evelo Atlas and the Omega

Atlas

Get all the features you want to explore 100-mile range in style. Includes the Enviolo CVT gearing system, Carbon Belt Drive, and a phenomenally powerful motor system. Plus 120 N.m. Torque with1200 Watts Peak Power you'll never worry about hills again.

evelo.com

 

[jabberwocky]

Have you owned or test ridden any ebikes?

We all start with all the unknowns. I'm an older rider, I live on a 900 foot elevation climb, 2.2 mile hill that culminates on an 18% grade. I've ridden that hill on a 250W mid drive, 350W geared hub, 500W geared hub and a 500W direct drive hub. They all do the hill well. If you can do some test riding, you might be discounting some great bikes.

Checkout this: Thread 'DAM!!!' https://electricbikereview.com/forums/threads/dam.32798/

Yeah, this. Did you try some ebikes with more standard motors and find they were unable to climb your hill? Or are the requirements just internet guestimation? Nominal motor ratings are incredibly unreliable, for various reasons (one of the big ones is motor wattage is how the legal regulations are written, so mfgs are motivated to underrate their motors which is why everyone has moved to torque ratings instead of nominal motor wattage). Most "250w" motors will happily peak up near 750 watts (if not more).

 

[mingovia]

What I am hearing is that there are no ebikes that meet my criteria.

So, it looks like I will have to build it myself. I am wondering if the following will be the easiest way to get what I want:
Buy the best ebike I can find that weighs less than 40 pounds, and has a mid-drive motor. I have seen a few of these
that use a 250W motor.
Then, replace the front wheel with a wheel with a built-in 500W motor, such as the Bafang 500W Front Hub Kit (FMG020).

This bike should meet the legal requirement of being limited to 750W, have sufficient power to climb the 3/4 mile hill I must
contend with, and weigh under 50 pounds. Has anyone tried this?

 

[DaveMatthews]

What is the grade and length of the hill?
I've never met a hill I cannot easily conquer.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

What is the grade and length of the hill?
I've never met a hill I cannot easily conquer.

My Specialized Vado 5.0 that weighs 53 lb (from the factory) and was loaded with a heavy pannier for a spare battery (and other necessary things) helped me conquer two 19% hills: one on the pavement and another on gravel. Yes, I swapped the chainring for the 38T one for my mountain trips

The road sign read "19%". Translated to Imperial units: 44 miles, 3,980 ft elevation gain.

 

[J.R.]

What I am hearing is that there are no ebikes that meet my criteria.

What we were offering was advice to get you on a bike that will kill your hill.

Putting a front hub on a mid drive bike with enough battery to go 25 miles with hills will not be under 50 pounds.

So, it looks like I will have to build it myself. I am wondering if the following will be the easiest way to get what I want:
Buy the best ebike I can find that weighs less than 40 pounds, and has a mid-drive motor. I have seen a few of these
that use a 250W motor.
Then, replace the front wheel with a wheel with a built-in 500W motor, such as the Bafang 500W Front Hub Kit (FMG020).

This bike should meet the legal requirement of being limited to 750W, have sufficient power to climb the 3/4 mile hill I must
contend with, and weigh under 50 pounds. Has anyone tried this?

 

[pmcdonald]

What I am hearing is that there are no ebikes that meet my criteria.

Respectfully, what you're hearing seems to be what you want to be hearing. What people are telling you is a 250W motor will eat up whatever hill you throw at it.

Options around or under the 50lb mark include the Cannondale Topstone, Canyon Grail:On, Cairn Brave, Giant Revolt or if you want to push the weight a bit the Bulls Grinder Evo. These all come with high torque motors that will flatten anything rideable. I'm sure others can suggest further options that aren't so gravel focused.

It sounds like you really want to build your own bike though. That could be a good option if you have the skills, spare time and money to throw at a lightweight project. There's plenty of builders here who can offer advice in that area.

Smart money would test ride whatever you can get your hands on to put proof to the theory a 750W motor is required to climb a hill. If all it offers is confirmation then excellent, you then only have to decide if the 50lb is a hard limit or DIY is the way to go.

 

[mingovia]

The Trek Emonda weighs 17.2 pounds. The Canyon Ultimate weighs 17.5 pounds.

It is quite disappointing that no ebike company has built a lightweight bike with the maximum power allowed by law.

What is odd is that there are plenty of trail bikes available with LOTS more than 2000W of power.

I really would prefer to buy an ebike "off the shelf". But, I know what I want, and it just doesn't seem to be available.

 

[EMGX]

You know your condition and how you want to ride but you've been given good info and advice - you need to actually ride some bikes rather than going just by numbers. I have a now discontinued BH gravel bike with Yamaha PW-SE 250w nominal mid drive. It is a great climber, very similar to a Tongsheng 750w torque sensing mid drive I have on another bike despite the difference in numbers. Both weigh low 40# range, the BH is 41# stock, the DIY is very close. I live on a mountain and almost every out and back ride I do from home includes ~1700 to 2000ft elevation gain depending on the route. I'm not a fit or strong rider but I only rarely use the highest setting on the yamaha, usually climb in the second lowest (eco) setting because I want the exercise that the "high" setting wouldn't provide for. For the Tongsheng I usually climb in second or third of 5 levels of assist. Couple weeks ago rode the DIY Tongsheng bike around Crater Lake which has some long and steep climbs. I've ridden the Yamaha powered bike up to the tunnels in Zion NP, many times in the Columbia gorge, up going to the sun road in Glacier NP (as far as plowing allowed), a 175 mile loop in eastern Oregon which has 8500 ft of elevation gain concentrated in a few sections and other similar rides with steep climbs. Likely there are several bikes that could do what you want other than meet your power number requirement.

Rides with long steep climbs I've done with a 250w mid drive - and a lot more than these.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

The Trek Emonda weighs 17.2 pounds. The Canyon Ultimate weighs 17.5 pounds.

It is quite disappointing that no ebike company has built a lightweight bike with the maximum power allowed by law.

It is pretty easy to explain. So called "full power" mid-drive motor from big brands with the nominal power of 250 W can produce, say, 565 W of mechanical power in the peak, that is, when you are climbing. At the same time, the motor draws 700-800 W of battery energy. To compensate for that and allow realistic ride time and range on the battery, the battery has to be big and heavy. The "full power" motor is not lightweight either. Big/heavy battery has to be used for powerful hub-drive motors, too, for the same reason: to provide the juice for realistically long time and for a decent range.

Heavy motor and battery require high structural strength of the frame, resulting in thick, overgrown frames and high overall weight of the e-bike, typically well over 50 lbs. Cannondale Topstone Neo Lefty Carbon is one of the most lightweight "full power" mid-drive motor e-bikes, of weight of some 39 lbs. It sports a full power Bosch CX motor with mechanical peak power presumably over 600 W but only a 500 Wh battery to make the e-bike more lightweight. Of course, a full carbon-fibre bike.

Other brands make lightweight e-bikes by using low power motors and smallish batteries. The maximum power does not exceed 250 W, and the battery could be 242-320 Wh. There is only one brand I'm aware of (Specialized) with their SL series that is using a lightweight and low power mid-drive motor. Others use low power hub-drive motors. Such e-bikes will not be really good climbers unless the rider is strong and fit.

 

[jabberwocky]

What I am hearing is that there are no ebikes that meet my criteria.

...

This bike should meet the legal requirement of being limited to 750W, have sufficient power to climb the 3/4 mile hill I must
contend with, and weigh under 50 pounds. Has anyone tried this?

You're waaaaaay too hung up on rated motor power. Manufacturer rated motor power is about the most meaningless number on the spec sheet. The big manufacturers massively underrate it, and the chinese manufacturers overrate it. Just grabbing that number off a spec sheet tells you very little about the performance of the bike.

Have you tested any electric bikes against this hill and actually found them lacking?

So, it looks like I will have to build it myself. I am wondering if the following will be the easiest way to get what I want:
Buy the best ebike I can find that weighs less than 40 pounds, and has a mid-drive motor. I have seen a few of these
that use a 250W motor.
Then, replace the front wheel with a wheel with a built-in 500W motor, such as the Bafang 500W Front Hub Kit (FMG020).

Theres no way adding a front wheel hub motor will be worth the expense or effort. If your hill is so genuinely steep you need the additional power, most of your weight will be on the back wheel, so the front won't be super helpful. Its also a really weight-inefficient way to add power to a bike, since you're adding another motor, another controller, all mounts for such, and additional battery. If you genuinely want more power, just buy a bike with a more powerful mid-drive. You'll probably have to toss your "under 50#" requirement though.

 

[rayray]

@dynamic, is that you?

 

[PedalUma]

I ride bikes that fit the OP's criteria everyday. @EMXG knows what he is talking about. Listen to him. Gearing is one factor to throw into the mix. I made two Specialized Crosstrails that fit the criteria this week.

 

[DaveMatthews]

The Trek Emonda weighs 17.2 pounds. The Canyon Ultimate weighs 17.5 pounds.

It is quite disappointing that no ebike company has built a lightweight bike with the maximum power allowed by law.

What is odd is that there are plenty of trail bikes available with LOTS more than 2000W of power.

I really would prefer to buy an ebike "off the shelf". But, I know what I want, and it just doesn't seem to be available.

Can you tell us what the grade of the hill you need to climb is? How long it is?
Knowing what you want is one thing, but knowing what you need is often another.

 

[California Flash]

What I am hearing is that there are no ebikes that meet my criteria.

So, it looks like I will have to build it myself. I am wondering if the following will be the easiest way to get what I want:
Buy the best ebike I can find that weighs less than 40 pounds, and has a mid-drive motor. I have seen a few of these
that use a 250W motor.
Then, replace the front wheel with a wheel with a built-in 500W motor, such as the Bafang 500W Front Hub Kit (FMG020).

This bike should meet the legal requirement of being limited to 750W, have sufficient power to climb the 3/4 mile hill I must
contend with, and weigh under 50 pounds. Has anyone tried this?

What is your reasoning for a bike weighing less than 50 pounds? A 250 watt motor properly geared for hilly areas should easily climb 15-20% grades. I have a Trek Allant + 8s, 250 watts, 46 tooth cassette, 40 tooth crankset which weighs around 90 pounds with racks, bags, lights, water etc. I easily climb 15% grades using Tour Mode (2nd gear). I still have Sport mode should the grade get steeper. I also have the most powerful boost which is Turbo. I have never used it! Given the proper gearing, you should be able to climb nearly every grade in your area.

 

[PedalUma]

Oh yes about gearing when using a mid.

Given the proper gearing

Here is a bike I made a few weeks ago. 350W, 85Nm, 36 chainring, 11-46 cassette. Light, compact battery. 3kg motor.

 

[PSm]

Oh yes about gearing when using a mid.

Here is a bike I made a few weeks ago. 350W, 85Nm, 36 chainring, 11-46 cassette. Light, compact battery. 3kg motor.

Very interesting custom make, PedalUma. For the OP, guessing that the power output wanted and battery weight would normally not allow a sub 50 lb bike with that much power to be realistically achievable.

IMO, unless you don't want to do much of your own pedal effort, 250 or 350 watts is generally more than enough. In my case, I can regularly (every ride) get up 7-10% grade hills fairly easily, and with effort up 12+% grades ... with a single speed carbon belt 350 watt (500+ watt peak) high geared (64x20) Ride1UP Roadster v2 ebike, about 33 lbs stock and 42+ lbs with addition of external battery and fully-loaded with tools, food and extra water.

For @PedalUma, would it be feasible to take a standard 3 speed Shimano IGH analog bike and convert it to an ebike ... and be able to keep it well under 30 lbs and have reasonable range? TIA.