Hill climber

[PedalUma]

Very interesting custom make, PedalUma. For the OP, guessing that the power output wanted and battery weight would normally not allow a sub 50 lb bike with that much power to be realistically achievable.

IMO, unless you don't want to do much of your own pedal effort, 250 or 350 watts is generally more than enough. In my case, I can regularly (every ride) get up 7-10% grade hills fairly easily, and with effort up 12+% grades ... with a single speed carbon belt 350 watt (500+ watt peak) high geared (64x20) Ride1UP Roadster v2 ebike, about 33 lbs stock and 42+ lbs with addition of external battery and fully-loaded with tools, food and extra water.

For @PedalUma, would it be feasible to take a standard 3 speed Shimano IGH analog bike and convert it to an ebike ... and be able to keep it well under 30 lbs and have reasonable range? TIA.

Probably more like 35 pounds or 36 is realistic depending on the size of the bike. Here are three coaster brake three speeds, two of them are very similar but one of those has a Union Jack and gravel tires, the other has a shorter Books saddle. Steel in the real world is very fast because it absorbs road noise and jar so the rider is more confident while going fast.

 

[PSm]

Probably more like 35 pounds or 36 is realistic depending on the size of the bike. Here are three coaster brake three speeds, two of them are very similar but one of those has a Union Jack and gravel tires, the other has a shorter Books saddle. Steel in the real world is very fast because it absorbs road noise and jar so the rider is more confident while going fast.

Beautiful work . Not right right now for me, but makes me wonder about a custom build in the future. Very nice look and simplicity.

 

[PedalUma]

Beautiful work . Not right right now for me, but makes me wonder about a custom build in the future. Very nice look and simplicity.

An eight-speed Nenxus or Alfine is better. The five-speed Sturmey is made for eBikes. It is all about getting to to Zen garden of less. No visible connectors, with no extra wires. Clean. The battery wire on this one exits the down tube at the seat tube, zoom to see the trick. It lives in San Francisco on a big hill. This is exactly what good climber eBikes look like.

 

[EMGX]

Just got back from a 26 mile ride with plenty of steep hills. 250w nominal mid drive, never used high, used standard for maybe 1/4 mile. The rest was on Eco. Used 43% of a 400wh battery

Rode down to the Columbia and back including the hills in between.

Hills are steep enough to hit low 40s coasting down, with braking.


I don't smoke but I think I could light a cigar on the brake rotors.

 

[LorenD]

I’m in the Broadview neighborhood of Seattle and had the same problem. With that much output on a motor, it’s hard to find a platform that weighs in your preferred zone. I looked at some local brands that had great output, but they were tanks. Couldn’t even get them into my car. On the advice of a member of my bike club, I gave the Propella 9S (9 speed) a spin and really liked it. Stripped, it weighed in at 41 lbs and has a peak output of 500W. They have a geared version and a single geared version that are even lighter, but I’m not sure about motor output, but you could easily find it on the website. I think you can upgrade the battery on both to the 9S’ larger battery, but that is separate and extra. Anyway, I’m pretty happy with that bike.

 

[Flannel Guy]

Getting up the hill is fine, but getting up the hill at the same speed as riding on flats is a different thing. If I really want feel it, I ride my 500w hub bike can only manage 15mph up most hills and less than 10 up the steep sections back to my house. Need to get there and back in a tight timeframe, I'm taking the 1000w + middrive and cruising 20-30 mph everywhere I go.

 

[retiredNH]

Getting up the hill is fine, but getting up the hill at the same speed as riding on flats is a different thing. If I really want feel it, I ride my 500w hub bike can only manage 15mph up most hills and less than 10 up the steep sections back to my house. Need to get there and back in a tight timeframe, I'm taking the 1000w + middrive and cruising 20-30 mph everywhere I go.

A perfect example of why ebikes get a bad rap. A "bike" cruising at over 20 mph? I'm sure analog bikers don't view someone going up a hill at 15 mph as riding a bike...

 

[m@Robertson]

Going awd on a bike will yield really, really good street climbing but it will blow your weight budget out of the water. In addition to the weight of the front motor, which is considerable, you will now have to have a big battery that has a custom BMS that can handle the draw from two motors at once. Wattage is a non issue... its amperage that the two controllers will demand. For the sake of argument lets say you have a BBS02 for a mid drive. Thats going to want 25 amps. And your front geared hub is going to eat about another 25 with a slow-start KT controller. that means you need a battery with a 50a continuous BMS (relying on the peak number for the BMS cannot be done as the twin motors will draw peak power for longer than a peak BMS will last before it pops and you have to reset it).

The awd thing on hills/streets is hard for a lot of people to wrap their heads around as they think the front motor will suffer from a loss of traction. The key is to keep the power reasonably low. say... 2 out of 5 on a KT controller which will yield a steady 250w of output on your display. This is the sweet spot. This gives just enough pull from the motor that it takes the edge off of what the mid drive has to bear and that motor in turn will be able to spool up much faster. End result is you take off like a shot, and the mid drive does not put any shock on the drivetrain. Chains last forever as do clusters if you did all your other homework when you built the bike.

BUT... this is far from a beginner's task. If this is your first ebike build, pick a different project. Also... your 50 lb weight limit is killing you. Its arbitrary and rooted in analog cycling. treat an ebike as a bicycle shaped object and not a bicycle. You want steel parts, for instance, for durability. You will do better forgetting what you know about bicycles and starting over. Then work in your cycling knowledge to your build after you have figured out the ebike basics.

 

[m@Robertson]

A perfect example of why ebikes get a bad rap. A "bike" cruising at over 20 mph? I'm sure analog bikers don't view someone going up a hill at 15 mph as riding a bike...

Yes but why should I care? I have a job to do: Get from Point A to Point B so I can get on with the next task in my life. I ride to go places, do things and go about my daily business. Other people should go about theirs and have a nice day.

 

[retiredNH]

Yes but why should I care? I have a job to do: Get from Point A to Point B so I can get on with the next task in my life. I ride to go places, do things and go about my daily business. Other people should go about theirs and have a nice day.

Why should you care? It's complicated. Since you asked, I guess you don't get it, so never mind. Just don't look at me when your locality (town, county, state?) puts "unpleasant" restrictions on ebikes or their riders.

 

[m@Robertson]

Just don't look at me when your locality (town, county, state?) puts "unpleasant" restrictions on ebikes or their riders.

Nonsense. The sky is not falling.

This is another example of how some recreational riders have neither affinity nor understanding of how bicycles are and should be used for routine transportation to replace automobiles.

 

[PSm]

Power/Speed is inversely proportional to Weight . Choose where on the spectrum you want to be.

Want to go fast and not particularly want to exercise, yes get a motorcycle or scooter, and ride on the streets instead of bike paths. Be respective of others and don't endanger the safety of people going slower.

There are unfortunately a lot more ebike riders out there (including a lot of young kids these days) riding recklessly and stupidly, giving everyone else a bad rap. Not directed at anyone specifically. There's personal choice, and the rule I try to live by ... "don't be a douchebag"

 

[EMGX]

Buy yourself a motorcycle.

What he and many others ride are mopeds (or motorcycles) built on bicycle frames, if they can travel over 30mph then they are motorcycles and IMO need to be ridden and regulated as such. Different locals have different requirements but for the state of Washington mopeds need the following (if capable of over 30mph then add insurance and motorcycle license endorsement). I'm not specifically against mopeds or motorcycles (I've had many motorcycles and a couple scooters) but they shouldn't be allowed on MUPs and bike lanes etc. They are no different, other than source of energy, than riding a gas scooter and pretending to twirl you legs (or gas moped that has pedals). I agree that the "sky isn't falling" but I expect and would support laws (edit: I'd advocate for such laws and likely to do so) and enforcement against riding these electric mopeds or scooters with pedals in the same manner allowed as real bicycles that only "assist" in the common sense of the term.

Mopeds​

What is a moped?​

To qualify as a moped, a vehicle:

• Must have 2–3 wheels.
• Must have an electric or liquid fuel motor with a cylinder displacement of less than 50 cc, and no more than 2 brake horsepower.
• Can't travel faster than 30 miles per hour.
• and
• Must meet all the federal standards for a motor-driven cycle.

Requirements​

You don't need a motorcycle endorsement or auto insurance to ride a moped. However, to legally operate a moped in Washington:

• You must have a valid driver license.
• You must register the moped and display a valid license plate.
• You and your passengers must wear USDOT-approved helmets.
• You must wear eye protection if your moped doesn't have a windshield.
• You can't ride the moped on a sidewalk, bicycle path, equestrian trail, hiking/recreational trail, or fully-controlled limited access highway.

 

[EMGX]

or

Closeout HyperScorpion: Electric Moped-Style Bike

The fully-loaded HyperScorpion is the ultimate moped-style e-bike for performance-obsessed thrill-seekers. Click for all of this bike's premium features!

www.juicedbikes.com

the electric moped has a higher top speed without pedaling (their video shows top speed over 30mph) but it would not even be legal in Washington as a moped because it doesn't appear to meet (?) federal standards for a motor-driven cycle.

 

[m@Robertson]

What he and many others ride are mopeds (or motorcycles) built on bicycle frames,

No thats false. I ride a bicycle at a typical cruising speed of about 20 mph, and I am almost purely pedaling it. Sure it has a throttle. they are useful. Particularly for starting from a stop and getting up to speed. Thats helpful for a bike filled with - for example - groceries like this one a couple days ago.

Tomorrow it will be a 60 lb solar generator I'm taking 15 miles to storage, down over on the bad side of town on segments of road with no shoulder and no bike lane. So you haul ass on that segment to keep from having problems with motorists who resent your existence on their roads. Not at all the same world as a pleasure cruise.

Remember I was pushing back against the statement that a bicycle traveling uphill at 15 mph is giving ebikers a bad name. So it is no longer a problem to ride at legal speeds, now we can't go 15 mph? Where's the limit this time? 10 mph since 15 is too much? Ridiculous. And a nonexistent demand anywhere but on an internet forum where a keyboard is substituted for riding chops.

 

[EMGX]

Sorry, not buying it.
How you ride it doesn't supersede what it is as defined by statute such as what I posted regarding Washington state. Your location may be different and maybe your bikes aren't as capable as the HyperScorpion or other "ebikes" that meet the definition of mopeds or motorcycles based on performance.
It wouldn't matter that a gas moped's rider was "almost purely pedaling it" or what the rider's practical transportation needs were - it is a moped and would need registration/license plate and be ridden by a person with a driver's license and not be ridden on paths/bike lanes etc in WA. Those regulations also cover electric power, not only gas.
I'm good with electric moped like bicycles or motorcycles, they only need to meet the reasonable regulations that are already in force.
When the new or re-elected local representatives take office I'm planning to send the HyperScorpion video (that shows well what these vehicles really are and often how they are ridden on MUPs or bike lanes) along with links to blogs and request that they consider the implications of allowing this type of vehicle to avoid regulations that are already in place and seemingly enforceable. Impound a few and the message might get across - just as unlicensed or noncompliant scooters and motorcycles are treated, at least when and where laws and regulations are actually enforced.

 

[jabberwocky]

I'm good with electric moped like bicycles or motorcycles, they only need to meet the reasonable regulations that are already in force.

Don't worry, all that power and the high speed mode is for "off-road use only"!

 

[EMGX]

Don't worry, all that power and the high speed mode is for "off-road use only"!

The usual disclaimer for selling vehicles or modifications to vehicles that are not legal for use on public thoroughfares. It would seem that riding an "off road use only" vehicle on roads or paths should make enforcement that much easier.

 

[PedalUma]

Different strokes for different folks. In my opinion, taking a car off the road is a good thing. If @m@Robertson is taking a solar generator 15 miles on a bike, that is supper cool. He down tunes his rides and makes them extra robust because they are work horses, not race horses. I do not like unlawful bikes but his cannot be painted with the same brush as a Sir Ron any more than they can be lumped in with carbon road bikes.

 

[jabberwocky]

Different strokes for different folks. In my opinion, taking a car off the road is a good thing.

I completely agree, and in general am fine with people riding whatever they want. I get anxious about shared infrastructure just because I worry about long-term access risk, but as long as you aren't riding like a jackass its probably unlikely to be an issue.

The only thing that really irritates me is people insisting their obviously non-compliant bike is legal because, well, they don't like the rules and think it should be. Its fine to not like the rules; by nature they have to draw hard lines that are somewhat arbitrary. Just be honest about what you ride.