Hello, and I think I may need to move on?

[PedalUma]

Not meant to poop on you all party.
There is a tight turn around the bottom of hill.

Is it dog left or dog right?
Honestly I wouldn't have my kids transported on an ebike.

Then see this film. Here is the trailer.

 

[catgirleugenics]

Not meant to poop on you all party.
There is a tight turn around the bottom of hill.

Is it dog left or dog right?
Honestly I wouldn't have my kids transported on an ebike.

schoolkids even get picked up by their teachers in big cargo bikes here in NL. i also see plenty of occasions where a mom on a regular bike will just drop the kid on a cargo rack on the front of a bike and tell them to hold on lol. with an experienced rider it's really not a big deal.

@LisaJane706 i think like most everyone else is saying a mid drive conversion would probably do you best. i recently converted a dutch tweelingfiets (twin bike) which is what a lot of mothers here use to get their kids around. it cost me around €1900 all in which was about the same as what i was looking at for a new RAD bike. i am similar to you in that i needed a cargo bike to haul passengers around but i hated the riding experience of the front load bakfiets.

i used to have a hub drive bike, but after using this mid drive i would never go back. when carrying any kind of cargo your gears become so incredibly important, and it just doesn't make sense to have the power from the motor completely bypass your gears. the "easy" upgrade for the rad wagon would be a higher amperage controller, but i suspect even that will not be enough for you with those hills. my suggestion would be to sell it and look for a mid drive. custom builders are becoming more popular so i'm sure you could find someone to build it for you if you don't want to take on that task, or if you have more of a budget the yuba someone else here mentioned would be a great choice. i do not have as much money to blow on bikes as some of these other forum members seem to have so building was my only choice.

 

[kevinmccune]

How about a good used Japanese car till the kiddies get bigger, honestly some of this bike bravado goes a bit too far, the most precious things in life need accommodation,I shudder everytime I see a baby or small kid in one of those little trailers, cargo bike somewhat better. Just my opinion.

 

[catgirleugenics]

How about a good used Japanese car till the kiddies get bigger, honestly some of this bike bravado goes a bit too far, the most precious things in life need accommodation,I shudder everytime I see a baby or small kid in one of those little trailers, cargo bike somewhat better. Just my opinion.

it's really not that crazy. i see stuff like this every day and honestly the only people who seem to get in accidents are tourists who are too stoned to pay attention to the traffic rules. with a good rider who is being careful, i don't see cycling being any more or less dangerous than being in a tiny car.

 

[kevinmccune]

Maybe in Europe, this is the good old"United States of Texting and distracted driving", wouldn't place my Grandson in jeopardy in the traffic scene. Some people feel different about the subject, I wish them well.
One very attractive Lass used to Bike from a "Milltown" to the closest resort town in this area, some clown finally tagged Her, She recovered and rode the route again,I have not seen Her lately( hope She found a trail to ride.) I just do not like mixing 2 wheelers with the "cocooned 4 wheelers"

 

[SC00CHB00CH]

schoolkids even get picked up by their teachers in big cargo bikes here in NL. i also see plenty of occasions where a mom on a regular bike will just drop the kid on a cargo rack on the front of a bike and tell them to hold on lol. with an experienced rider it's really not a big deal.

@LisaJane706 i think like most everyone else is saying a mid drive conversion would probably do you best. i recently converted a dutch tweelingfiets (twin bike) which is what a lot of mothers here use to get their kids around. it cost me around €1900 all in which was about the same as what i was looking at for a new RAD bike. i am similar to you in that i needed a cargo bike to haul passengers around but i hated the riding experience of the front load bakfiets.

i used to have a hub drive bike, but after using this mid drive i would never go back. when carrying any kind of cargo your gears become so incredibly important, and it just doesn't make sense to have the power from the motor completely bypass your gears. the "easy" upgrade for the rad wagon would be a higher amperage controller, but i suspect even that will not be enough for you with those hills. my suggestion would be to sell it and look for a mid drive. custom builders are becoming more popular so i'm sure you could find someone to build it for you if you don't want to take on that task, or if you have more of a budget the yuba someone else here mentioned would be a great choice. i do not have as much money to blow on bikes as some of these other forum members seem to have so building was my only choice.

So many negative boomers in this forum. You are right to call him out on his negative pessimism.

It's weird most of the newly pro-mid-drive guys in this thread previously totally slammed me in another thread on this forum about mid-drives and how hub drives are better. Here we have a real person in a real world scenario with a hub drive (A Mother no less) and she can't climb hills which was my entire point of a previous thread that mid-drives solve a hill climbing need. I live in an area where there are literally almost no flat roads and mostly hills and a mid-drive solved all of my problems.

Just odd to see these people with varying opinions in different threads never consistent with actual use case scenarios and real world experiences. They all seem to own cheaply made rear hub drives and vehemently defend their purchase choice with fervor. As though their choice was the right choice and they feel vindicated for their supreme choice in e-bike motor style.
Anyone giving an opinion to the contrary is ostracized and considered an outcast by these forum bullies.
This forum is a place for knowledgeable experiences and opinions based on real world experiences.

In this case we clearly have a mother whom can't climb hills on her hub drive. She's clearly experienced this as a real world event.
A mid-drive will absolutely solve her problem. Without question from a guy whom owns a mid-drive in the mountains.

Now can a rear hub climb hills? YES but you need to add insane levels of wattage to compensate for the lack of the ability for the hub drive to USE THE GEARS ON A BICYCLE which in turn helps the bike climb hills. This Mother will tell you that as evidence by her post.

With throttle only and a measly 750watt bbs02 MID-DRIVE motor this Mother could climb the tallest of hills without even pedaling. But God forbid tell the forum regulars whom all own cheaply made hub drives , driving on pure flat roads in Florida gleaming from ear to ear how grande their purchase is and how nothing else could possibly be better. It's like middle-school all over again only now the same kids are blue-haired-bullies.

Just wait till they get to a hill and their walking their Chinese made POS up a hill wondering why Billy left for college in 88 and never returned.

Sorry I had a rant , but I just hate bullies.

 

[kevinmccune]

No Bully here, just a reality check and I think the title expresses a desire for justification for a temporary approach to a problem.

 

[SC00CHB00CH]

No Bully here, just a reality check and I think the title expresses a desire for justification for a temporary approach to a problem.

No offense but I literally don't know who you are or the posts that you made.

Let that sink in.

If you ever need a friend my door is always open.

 

[tomjasz]

No Bully here, just a reality check and I think the title expresses a desire for justification for a temporary approach to a problem.

I’m not sure what bully refers to, apparently comments from an ignored poster. I think it was m@ that did mid hub combination. We’re it me a BBSHD is a beast of burden. Sucks for pedaling exercise but given it can pull a pedicab with a lazy driver and hold up it’ll climb hills with passengers and a weeks groceries. The new CYC looks enticing to me with the ability to run a range of battery voltages, but that’s another story.

 

[tomjasz]

Bafang it is just sort of last decade.

Jeepers. You know I respect your builds but many of us not so able could care less about torque sensing. I CAN ghost pedal and it keeps my legs in motion. That’s helpful.

Someday you‘ll be old too…

 

[SC00CHB00CH]

I’m not sure what bully refers to, apparently comments from an ignored poster. I think it was m@ that did mid hub combination. We’re it me a BBSHD is a beast of burden. Sucks for pedaling exercise but given it can pull a pedicab with a lazy driver and hold up it’ll climb hills with passengers and a weeks groceries. The new CYC looks enticing to me with the ability to run a range of battery voltages, but that’s another story.

Also no offense I don't know who you are tomjasz or the stance you take or the stance you take on this matter. I've only just previously seen you make statements which don't correlate to reality.

It's possibly another derailed thread , telling this Mother that her bike does indeed go up hills and that she's somehow misinformed of her conscience reality that somehow her ability to not climb hills is in her head??



You negatively pinned the BBSHD as not a proper replacement for her use case scenario which only convinces me you have no real world use case scenarios with this specific motor.

Let me tell you this instead of consistently outing solutions as not the solution why not offer her a solution? When you constantly say no , no , no , then where does the yes come in. Please inform us the solution. Instead you only knock the offered solutions without providing an alternate and comparable solution.

I live the mountains , I have a use case scenario , a mid-drive is the bike that solved my problem of not being able to climb hills.

 

[AHicks]

How about a good used Japanese car till the kiddies get bigger, honestly some of this bike bravado goes a bit too far, the most precious things in life need accommodation,I shudder everytime I see a baby or small kid in one of those little trailers, cargo bike somewhat better. Just my opinion.

This really is a tough call. I can sure appreciate the bike/cargo bike plan, but for it to work for me I would have to have an easily executed back up plan as well. Cold or wet weather, days where mom was feeling a little under the weather, scheduling conflicts, life happens you know?

 

[Slaphappygamer]

Seems like the easy fix would be to replace the controller. You can go with Area13, but it’s really just a new controller and display. You can get a kit from aliexpress for under $100. You might want to look at Area13’s offering to see what the connectors look like. With a new controller, you can output more amps, which will give you more torque. You won’t be going faster, just stronger/quicker. But be sure you get a sinewave controller and Water Proof (WP) plugs. I did an similar upgrade on my Ride1Up 700xr and now have no issue with hills.

With a new controller and display, you’d have more control of the delivery of power.

 

[AHicks]

Seems like the easy fix would be to replace the controller. You can go with Area13, but it’s really just a new controller and display. You can get a kit from aliexpress for under $100. You might want to look at Area13’s offering to see what the connectors look like. With a new controller, you can output more amps, which will give you more torque. You won’t be going faster, just stronger/quicker. But be sure you get a sinewave controller and Water Proof (WP) plugs. I did an similar upgrade on my Ride1Up 700xr and now have no issue with hills.

With a new controller and display, you’d have more control of the delivery of power.

Not going to disagree on the merits of a new controller (I'd be last in line for that, I'm a big KT proponent!). The issue here is, will these merits be enough to get the job done reliably? I would feel bad if our OP spent the necessary time and money to do/get the conversion done, only to find out it STILL won't make it! That concern isn't there with a mid drive, especially a larger one (BBSHD).

 

[retiredNH]

DIY mods, upgrades and builds are great for those of us who have experience in making things, especially things electrical, but is bad advice IMHO for someone without the experience.
Consider the amount of electrical power one is dealing with on a typical ebike. We already see reports of ebike battery fires.
Then consider that in some cases, battery pack voltage is approaching, or exceeding, the danger level for humans.
Finally, consider reliability. How many folks know how to make a build more reliable? Where to use locking nuts or Loctite for example?
Yea, upgrades sound easy, but you need to know about connectors, wiring codes, reliable mounting and a host of other things we tinkerers might take for granted, but a newbie would have no idea...

 

[m@Robertson]

C'mon. Tough but not that tough. For a mid drive, all you would need is a decent hub with the same number of spoke holes (not that big a deal), then use the OEM rim over again with a new set of spokes. If there's an issue, I'm missing it....

No I stand by that. With that oddball wheel size, the original budget Chinese factory rim has to be kept. If you are going to blow all that money on a conversion, I would build a quality good wheel to go with it. Since a quality mid-survivable hub is a couple of hundred bucks, and spokes are a buck a pop at the least... add in for labor for the wheelbuilder... do you really want to throw all that money at a budget rim? And lets not forget the available-only-from-one-seller replacement tires are under recall for a serious defect (with a stop-riding edict from Rad in place until fixed), exposing the risk inherent in a single source for such a critical component? For me the answer is no.

Would I do it if thats all that had to go on? Maybe. But we're also talking about new display. New brake levers and throttle (unless the plugs match). A new cluster in back... heck since its replacing a freewheel that probably means you're talking about new derailleur and shifter too (Microshift Advent for steel 46T cluster, shifter and derailleur would be the best low budget). The Rad uses a very basic derailleur as it stands and you'll want something decent when shifting becomes so important all of a sudden. It all adds up to a pretty big project.

I would have no issue with the frame/fork on that bike. Its solid.

As to the battery, its fine for a mid drive. What I was talking about was trying to use it with a 35a controller and a Bafang hub motor. I did that with my Frankenbike and it wasn't much faster or more powerful than the original 36v system. It was more, but not game-changing more.

 

[Slaphappygamer]

All valid points.

DIY mods, upgrades and builds are great for those of us who have experience in making things, especially things electrical, but is bad advice IMHO for someone without the experience.
Consider the amount of electrical power one is dealing with on a typical ebike. We already see reports of ebike battery fires.
Then consider that in some cases, battery pack voltage is approaching, or exceeding, the danger level for humans.
Finally, consider reliability. How many folks know how to make a build more reliable? Where to use locking nuts or Loctite for example?
Yea, upgrades sound easy, but you need to know about connectors, wiring codes, reliable mounting and a host of other things we tinkerers might take for granted, but a newbie would have no idea...

All valid points. I don’t know the OP. I don’t know their capabilities. Just wanted to toss another option in here.

 

[AHicks]

No I stand by that. With that oddball wheel size, the original budget Chinese factory rim has to be kept. If you are going to blow all that money on a conversion, I would build a quality good wheel to go with it. Since a quality mid-survivable hub is a couple of hundred bucks, and spokes are a buck a pop at the least... add in for labor for the wheelbuilder... do you really want to throw all that money at a budget rim? And lets not forget the available-only-from-one-seller replacement tires are under recall for a serious defect (with a stop-riding edict from Rad in place until fixed), exposing the risk inherent in a single source for such a critical component? For me the answer is no.

Would I do it if thats all that had to go on? Maybe. But we're also talking about new display. New brake levers and throttle (unless the plugs match). A new cluster in back... heck since its replacing a freewheel that probably means you're talking about new derailleur and shifter too (Microshift Advent for steel 46T cluster, shifter and derailleur would be the best low budget). The Rad uses a very basic derailleur as it stands and you'll want something decent when shifting becomes so important all of a sudden. It all adds up to a pretty big project.

I would have no issue with the frame/fork on that bike. Its solid.

As to the battery, its fine for a mid drive. What I was talking about was trying to use it with a 35a controller and a Bafang hub motor. I did that with my Frankenbike and it wasn't much faster or more powerful than the original 36v system. It was more, but not game-changing more.

We'll need to agree to disagree here a bit. This bike doesn't need to hold up like one of your super duty builds. A super duty (all steel) hub for instance, just isn't necessary for what our OP want's/needs to do.

I do agree on the DIY aspects. I did mention early on that this was not going to be easy. A quality build never is. But it's not exactly overwhelming either.

I think maybe some of the naysayers may be a little short on experience with this kind of thing - with no intent of ever trying a project like this. Pretty easy to throw darts from that perspective.

The RAD's OEM battery has been holding up fine on my 2017 RAD City w/MAC12t and 35a KT controller for years now. Provides very good performance. Sorry to hear yours didn't work out so well.

Last, you've listed reasons why a conversion might be expensive, wondering how you would suggest our OP proceed? Cost of going in that direction vs doing the mod here?

 

[indianajo]

Now can a rear hub climb hills? YES but you need to add insane levels of wattage to compensate for the lack of the ability for the hub drive to USE THE GEARS ON A BICYCLE which in turn helps the bike climb hills. This Mother will tell you that as evidence by her post.

Another "mid drives use the gears to climb hllls" fantasy. Believe in fairies too?
A rad4 has maybe max a 28 tooth rear sprocket. Look at the picture https://electricbikereview.com/rad-power-bikes/radwagon/
Even with the 36 tooth conversion of a bafang middrive, the lowest 28 tooth sprocket decreases torque to 82% of nominal at the motor. OP can't change the rear wheel, it is a 22" diameter. I tried for a year to buy a 32 max 7 speed freewheel for my hub drive, NOBODY in US EVER STOCKED ONE. A 48 tooth sprocket that would actually increase torque, comes in cassettes, not freewheels. 90% chance the Rad hub motor takes freewheels, not cassettes.
OP needs to sell her bike, and buy one with 48 tooth rear sprocket OEM plus a mid drive. Unfortunately cargo bikes don't come that way. Or buy a Mac12t 48 v 1000 w geared hub with 25 amp controller, and lace it in the Rad wheel. I've been trying to buy a Mac12t for 18 months , no longer sold in the US. Have to buy a pallet of 8 from alibaba. Really, it is car or gas scooter time for the OP.

 

[m@Robertson]

... It can be what is called 'ghost ridden' that is it will go full speed while slowly pedaling. There is a disconcerting disconnect between pedal speed (cadence) and chainring speed.

Hah you are pitching me a softball. Cheers for that I would not wish the factory programming for a Bafang motor on anyone. It has all the issues you describe and a few more. But its also pretty simple to alter that so the bike never runs away from you etc. Plus, don't forget she is using a cadence-sensor'd bike right now. A BBSxx will be a step up in that regard no matter what.

BBSHD Programming For The Pedaling Cyclist

(But Not For The Throttler) There is a follow-on to this article that tinkers with these settings a bit further. In August 2023 I published another update that passed along what I’m doing dif…

talesontwowheels.com

We are probably one year away from the CYC Photon being the holy grail of alternatives, seeing as it is only being released for the first time later this month. Until then, the tried/true BBSHD

Funny thing... for the bike I am building now I am not going to de-tune the BBSHD out of the gate like I usually do. There's so much need for power up the steep hills in that area, my Surly is on a higher power setting and I think I want to try it with closer to full power for the pedal assist, with the rough edges on engagement and disengagement smoothed out.

Not going to disagree on the merits of a new controller (I'd be last in line for that, I'm a big KT proponent!). The issue here is, will these merits be enough to get the job done reliably? I would feel bad if our OP spent the necessary time and money to do/get the conversion done, only to find out it STILL won't make it! That concern isn't there with a mid drive, especially a larger one (BBSHD).

^^^ this x 100. I have done the KT controller upgrades on this very hub motor. That includes a 35 amp controller, 52v battery and using the large 'bigfoot' internals (stator upgrade) out of the gate. Its still only an incremental upgrade over either 36v 20 amp or 48v 25 amp, both of which I have done on earlier bikes. Once I tried those upgrades and realized they were insufficient I went to a mid drive and that was the job done right there.