Have you seen the revised Helios?

[pushkar]

The inventory was paid for by founder money. Without founder money there would be no inventory. It didn't matter that money was tied up in inventory. You crowd sourced a bike at close to zero profit margin, so when things went bad you end up eating the loss ( assuming you pay everyone back) which eats into your free capital. If you hadn't crowd sourced, you still eat those losses. Inventory had nothing to do with it. You are perhaps fortunate that you could return the inventory in this COVID environment. What constrained you from moving forward was a commitment, which you ultimately needed to break away from.

Knowing what everyone knows now, if it were not for COVID, we would absolutely have been able to deliver the bikes. I would argue that commitment has nothing to do with it, but nothing we say is going to change opinions.

We are learning what not to do, the hard way. We will try to stay away from crowdfunding, esp in a challenging environment. So per our new policy, we are not pre-selling a product we dont have or cant make. We are giving ourselves time to build enough inventory and capacity to be able to deliver this. We will take our time to refine, improve, adjust and tweak it till we know that is a product that can be built.

 

[TomD]

I guess I don't understand what you were trying to say about inventory then. Not sure how inventory didn't allow you to change / evolve? Most of the inventory you were holding was founder inventory, no? Other than the commitment to founders how did it constrain you? This was in the context of charging a fair price. I would agree the founder pricing didn't allow you to cover losses, and that could prevent you from changing / evolving. But the inventory? Seemed like a strange comment.

 

[Acme]

As a potential customer for Watt Wagon I have been following the relative threads for quite some time.

As such , I have noticed that Pushkar is very attentive when selling a product and not so much after the sale

I am a current owner (and have owned many ebikes) of the 2020 R&M Delite GT Touring with CX pkg (5,700 miles) And also a 2020 Haibike Full Fat Six 10.0.

The Delite has been rock solid with absolutely no issues. My previous R&M was a Nevo GT Touring HS with 4,300 miles (also rock solid with no issues) before I sold it privately for 50% of what I paid for it new.

As posted earlier: Buyer Beware.

There are many other overall better options out there.

I’m curious what options you were talking about. A friend of mine has an RM full suspension with Bosch and a belt drive. He is however always jealous of my Hydra. I have ridden a turbo levo as well.
My overall take is the standard European spec EMTB are probably more trouble free and you can take them to a local bike shop when you do have issues.
The Hydra is serviceable at a regular bike shop but I’m not all of them. Parts are not readily available for some things like when I lost a nut on my suspension. (my fault I had not put Loctite on after I had removed it) That took two weeks to get.
the Hydra are heavier as well. However they can’t compare performance for non-technical trails like fire roads etc. The Hydra leaves them all in the dust.

 

[Leon S. Kennedy]

Along with having the new Helios on the website, it looks like the CrossTour is no longer offered on wattwagons.com. At least I don't see it there anymore.

 

[pushkar]

Along with having the new Helios on the website, it looks like the CrossTour is no longer offered on wattwagons.com. At least I don't see it there anymore.

That is correct. We Can do crosstour as a special order / one off. Really want to focus on what we can build in a reasonable time.

btw your motor doing ok ? Dear god it took a long time to get that figured out.

 

[TomD]

However they can’t compare performance for non-technical trails like fire roads etc. The Hydra leaves them all in the dust.

I have a $777 euro spec hard tail and leaves my acoustic bike in the dust on fire roads.

 

[pennybags]

I have a $777 euro spec hard tail and leaves my acoustic bike in the dust on fire roads.

does it have Bosch motor? is it German ? Did you buy from a committed seller ?

You have to share your awesome experiences with Hard tails.
And did you sell it at 50% off after four years of use?

 

[Johnny]

There are many other overall better options out there.

What better options are there ?

 

[17Stratton]

What better options are there ?

Luna Apollo when in stock.

 

[pennybags]

What better options are there ?

Guess they are commenting on the individual but not the product.

My guess is Reise and Muller superdelite, or a specialized como, or a nicolai. There’s really nothing else like this right now. I was / am one of the founders and this will be my third bike with WW when it’s launched.

Launching a bike is tough. I’m glad we are watching the company grow up and own issues and change rapidly. It’s not all roses, but for what they have delivered, it’s unheard of.

How many people have experienced the bikes built so far? Pretty much everyone I’ve connected with individually here and offline, has raved about them. I have no doubt that as WW matures, and updates their engagement model, they will continue pushing out fantastic products.

I’m excited to see how this bike shapes up. I have helped WW in the past with frames and I know kinda first hand what they are trying to do now. Kudos for trying something new.

 

[pennybags]

Luna Apollo when in stock.

Ha ha. Yeah. Apollo. It’s a reasonable option but not in the same league IMO. Definitely a big one 4 years ago but they haven’t kept up with it.

I don’t believe it’s a commuter though. And I am not a big fan of external batteries on FS off-road bikes.

 

[pennybags]

This one if you are in Europe.

For US? Hydra maybe a Gen2 with fatties.

Whoops off topic a bit.

New Helios is cool, put sirens and blue lights on that and good to go.

LMX is so cool. They actually offer it like a motorcycle. Weird but cool.

 

[Rider777]

What better options are there ?

Ha Ha ! Nice try !
I’m not willing to put in the time to create a post here reflecting my experiences with more than a dozen ebikes.
But I will say: Buy from a very well known brand and pay the money.

And……..I’ve noticed a few comments regarding all the power the WW has if equipped and how little mileage you get and some shut down issues when trying to use all the power.
A couple of posters made some real world comments: Realistically anything over 1000 watts is a waste.
How often are you going to cruise at over 20mph? And/or climb 15% or greater hills?
With my over 20K miles of ebike riding (a few were full suspension) 250Watts nominal which equals approx. 600Watts peak is plenty. And I’m talking my experience mostly with Bosch with a few Yamaha and a couple of Brose powered bikes.

YMWV

 

[pennybags]

Ha Ha ! Nice try !
I’m not willing to put in the time to create a post here reflecting my experiences with more than a dozen ebikes.
But I will say: Buy from a very well known brand and pay the money.

I’d agree with you. However it’s a little disingenuous for you to say “buyer beware” just because WW is a small brand.
Would you say that about rebadgers like Luna Or Biktrix ?

you are trying to come across as a “reasonable voice” but unfortunately it has been laid bare as just disingenuous, somewhat personal agenda, and taking away from the product.

good luck with your bikes. You are not the only one who has more than one bike.

 

[17Stratton]

Ha ha. Yeah. Apollo. It’s a reasonable option but not in the same league IMO. Definitely a big one 4 years ago but they haven’t kept up with it.

I don’t believe it’s a commuter though. And I am not a big fan of external batteries on FS off-road bikes.

I converted mine to a commuter - commuter tires, light, mirrors. With the full suspension, it is great on the rough roads of NYC. Better commuter than the Stomer and R&M I had, except for lack of rack. Also, Luna Apollo looks sweet IMO. Helios looks just don’t do it for me. But agree, they havn‘t done anything to improve it in quite some time. What we really need is someone to build a bike that looks like a Stromer w/ Full Suspension and Bafang Power.

 

[Rider777]

I’d agree with you. However it’s a little disingenuous for you to say “buyer beware” just because WW is a small brand.
Would you say that about rebadgers like Luna Or Biktrix ?

you are trying to come across as a “reasonable voice” but unfortunately it has been laid bare as just disingenuous, somewhat personal agenda, and taking away from the product.

good luck with your bikes. You are not the only one who has more than one bike.

“Buyer beware” is somewhat of a broad stroke and can apply to almost anything for sale .

I had one experience with Luna many years ago and it was a DISASTER ! ”Buyer beware” is an understatement!

I wasn’t trying to brag about how many bikes I have/had, just to show experience history, which lends to credibility .

After reading Pushkar’s comments above I believe he has learned a LOT and will do much better in the future.

But I’m still staying with large well known brands.

 

[Ebiker33]

This is general statement to cover all industries that are suffering right now.
I feel bad when compounding COVID based delays mess up generally good customer service.
I am in the thick of industries that are suffering from all kinds of delays from not enough truckers, to not enough longshoreman on the docks, to not enough containers, to vendors being outbid on air freight that was locked in but then got outbid, which is allowed by greedy airlines, to people saying I am either retiring or just not going to work right now, effecting the labor pool. And finally there is a worldwide shortage of Lithium for battery makers, they need more and more of it, everything is going cordless with these basic cells.

So when Pushkar says if it weren't for COVID...believe him.
Newer companies would be especially hard hit by this, they have no long standing relationships that have gravitas to fall back onto for help.

Unless you actually work in industry you can't possibly know just how bad it is right now, I have never seen anything like in my many decades of work.
This has laid bare the just in time inventory supply chain mythology as a failure. I don't see it recovering in 2022, as they are suppose to clear through any jam ups before Chinas new years 1 month shutdown and that isn't going to happen.

We had been living in a get it instantly world, it's hard to adjust our expectations in the new reality of never ending delays, and it's super frustrating.
So it's wait, and pay more now.

 

[TomD]

does it have Bosch motor? is it German ? Did you buy from a committed seller ?

You have to share your awesome experiences with Hard tails.
And did you sell it at 50% off after four years of use?

On a fire road? A hard tail works just fine. So does a euro spec motor. May not the best choice if you aren't fit. Then again it may get you in shape faster. I just thought it was funny to see chestbeating about how Hydra leaves euro spec in the dust on a fire road. OK, great, if that's your thing. I mostly ride fire roads to cut long abandoned road walks on hikes. The awesome experience is the hike, but the ride back down the fire road is just a much of a hoot on a hard tail, with less pedal strike both directions. I have a fancier FS ebike, but the $777 euro spec ebikes I picked up on closeout last year allow me to share these type of hikes with friends that don't have ebikes, and they generally do just fine on them.

 

[Leon S. Kennedy]

That is correct. We Can do crosstour as a special order / one off. Really want to focus on what we can build in a reasonable time.

btw your motor doing ok ? Dear god it took a long time to get that figured out.

The new motor is great. Thanks very much for sending it. It has never cut out in about 1500 miles so far whereas the old motor was cutting out several times per trip. Did you have a chance to dissect the old motor? I was wondering if it had a similar problem to the other problematic motors? I recall you found damage to certain wires.

I never reported it, but the old motor would also have power problems occasionally. Sometimes during climbing, I could be in sport level 5 and not get more than 500 watts. No power problems whatsoever with the new motor. It actually has a bit too much power for the gates belt drive. I have to baby it (increase pedaling force very gradually) when I get to eco level 3 or the belt will skip. I learned my lesson to take it easy after I tore through a belt.

The new motor is also much much quieter than the old motor, but that could be due to greasing the new motor like Simon from UK showed on his video, which I didn't do with the old motor.

 

[TomD]

I'm told Innotrace does NOT recommend greasing as Simon did, way too much grease!