Has anyone gone from an e-bike with throttle to one without?

[0grayscale1]

I currently have an e-bike with a hub motor coupled with a single speed drivetrain (39T X 16T), torque sensor and a throttle. I use the throttle primarily for getting going from a stop and for crossing intersections as fast as possible. For either situation, I would put the bike in PAS 5 (max) and throttle to my desired speed, then dropping the PAS to 1 or 2 and then I keep my speed up by just using PAS and no throttle.

However, I am looking at a new bike that is a mid-drive with a similar amount of torque 80Nm (vs 89Nm on my current bike). The big differences with the new bike are the fact that it uses the Enviolo CVT and does not have a throttle. Without being able to test drive the new bike, my obvious concern is getting that burst of speed when I want/need it. Obviously with the CVT, I would shift to the lowest ratio while using max PAS setting. I just have no way to judge, since I can't test drive the bike, whether I will get the quick, intersection slicing thrust, that I have become accustomed to.

If you have gone from a bike with a throttle to one without, did you suffer from throttle withdrawal? Did you eventually get over it?

 

[AHicks]

We recently had a conversation, that ran several pages (a LOT of input), regarding "zippy". It was a pretty good conversation comparing geared hub drives to mid drives on initial acceleration. Lot's of info you might enjoy reading -
https://electricbikereview.com/foru...t-naturally-less-zippy-than-hub-motors.50918/

A paragraph from one of my responses-
"The 500w geared hub, and the Bafang M600 mid drive are both "rated" at 500w. Both will be pulling closer to 1000w at wide open throttle, so they would be a pretty good match - on paper. From a standing start, the geared hub is going to clean the M600's clock to about 10mph. To get to 10mph for example, there's no need to shift the geared hub if taking off in 3rd or 4th gear, where with the M600 you are going to have to back off on your pedal pressure for each shift (or risk clunky shifts) slowing you considerably. From there (10+mph) you're into more of a cruise mode, and both are actually pretty similar when it comes to mid range punch/top speeds."

To make this apply directly to your question, it should be noted the the M600 powered bike (Evelo Atlas w/over 100Nm) uses the Enviolo CVT drive. It needs to be understood that for max acceleration from a start, you need to be in the biggest gear/lowest ratio available. So you accelerate hard for about 10' (not quite across the road yet, with a long way to go), and it's time to shift, which you may have to do a couple more times to get across this busy road. What needs to be known with the manual shifting Enviolo (no experience with the fully automatic), is that it's VERY difficult to "up" shift under load. You pretty much have to stop pedaling. Clearly, when looking for max road crossing acceleration, having to stop pedaling is not a real desirable trait.....

The geared hub meanwhile, will have left you in the dust...... (see you on the other side!).

IMHO, the beauty of the Enviolo happens at cruise speeds (6-10mph+) or even when climbing, but certainly not initial acceleration. Noteworthy is the fact that down shifting is done easily under load. I ask about that, and was told they wanted to prioritize the down shifts to minimize the chances of stalling the bike when approaching a hill in too high a gear. There's a mechanical advantage built in when down shifting. -Al

 

[Avg_Joe]

I went from Rad Rover (upgraded Bolton controller, throttle) to Specialized Vado (no throttle), and can honestly say I do not miss throttle one iota. Intersections/crossings are no issue at all: be in low gear, foot on a pedal, go (even on lowest/no assist).

IMHO the transition from a +70lb bike w/ 26x4" tires with throttle to a 50lb bike with 27.5x2.3" tires is the fundamental reason I do not miss throttle. Vado is so easy to pedal, moves and handles so much better, much easier to get moving. Required car analogy: a 4-cylinder gas engine in a 2300lb Miata vs a 4-cylinder AWD/4WD 4500lb SUV...

 

[tomjasz]

Impossible for this fella in his 70’s. The throttle means on days I couldn’t possibly pedal with pain, or rides with friends and family 30-50 years younger that are longer than my muscle stamina. I’m bummed that some really great eBikes don’t give me an option, and I can build out a better bike than Radrover and their ilk offer with throttles. The market can keep 4” tires. I’ve got a frame I built out with 4” tires and road for 20 miles before abandoning it in the corner of my workshop.

 

[0grayscale1]

To make this apply directly to your question, it should be noted the the M600 powered bike (Evelo Atlas w/over 100Nm) uses the Enviolo CVT drive. It needs to be understood that for max acceleration from a start, you need to be in the biggest gear/lowest ratio available. So you accelerate hard for about 10' (not quite across the road yet, with a long way to go), and it's time to shift, which you may have to do a couple more times to get across this busy road. What needs to be known with the manual shifting Enviolo (no experience with the fully automatic), is that it's VERY difficult to "up" shift under load. You pretty much have to stop pedaling. Clearly, when looking for max road crossing acceleration, having to stop pedaling is not a real desirable trait.....

This was an aspect of the Enviolo I was aware of, but I never quite thought about in this context. This might actually force me to reconsider a throttle-less CVT bike. Thank you!

 

[0grayscale1]

IMHO the transition from a +70lb bike w/ 26x4" tires with throttle to a 50lb bike with 27.5x2.3" tires is the fundamental reason I do not miss throttle. Vado is so easy to pedal, moves and handles so much better, much easier to get moving. Required car analogy: a 4-cylinder gas engine in a 2300lb Miata vs a 4-cylinder AWD/4WD 4500lb SUV...

My current e-bike is ~85 lbs vs ~52 lbs on the one I was considering, so that is something to think about. I remember when I went from a 3900lb Audi S4 to a Miata. While the Miata was much less powerful, and was indeed slower, the light weight, as well as tight gearing, resulted in the Miata not "feeling" any slower.

 

[sc00ter]

My 2cents since I've owned both. When I went from a RadRunner 1 to a Cero One I hated not having a throttle. It had it's place and, even though I didn't use it much, it had a purpose. So try riding your current ebike like you normally do without using the throttle. Disable it if you can and go for your normal rides. If you currently never use it then you have your answer, but try my throttle test.

Also, I didn't care for a internally geared hub (IGH) on a ebike. The mid-drive motor, even with power disable during shifting, still beats the crap out of the hub. My Cero was always getting hung up if shifting under any pedal pressure, I had to completely stop pedaling to shift. The hub (Nexus heavy duty 5 speed) was adjusted properly. I'm going back to good old fashioned gears if I get another ebike. I have no experience with the CVT style hubs on ebikes but I have no urge to try one. Oh, and the belt drive may be clean and quiet but without the little tool to check the belt tension you'll never get the tension correct if you have to remove the wheel to fix a flat. Buy the correct belt tension tool asap and carry it with you.

 

[AHicks]

This was an aspect of the Enviolo I was aware of, but I never quite thought about in this context. This might actually force me to reconsider a throttle-less CVT bike. Thank you!

My Atlas is equipped with a throttle. I wouldn't own a bike without one. But here, in this road crossing/initial acceleration scenario, I don't think that throttle makes one bit of difference. The torque sensing is giving the motor everything available so there's no advantage. IMHO, this is about comparing a bike that must be shifted a couple of times, to one that does not need to be shifted.

Agree weight is a factor too. The Atlas/Envoilo bike is about 65 lbs. The Bafang 500w geared hub is 55lbs. I think the bigger factor though, is about the shifting. To use the automotive comparison further, street racers running big muscle cars rarely favor 4 speeds over a good automatic. That lesson learned a long time ago.....

Oh, noteworthy too, is the fact that the CVT is not helping when it comes to bike weight. They're much heavier than a straight derailleur set up. That's why the Atlas weighs what it does.

STILL, the Atlas is one pretty darn nice bike. -Al

 

[fooferdoggie]

once on a while we could use it on our tandem when we have to stop on a really steep hill. but it would be a strain for a hub motor anyway.

 

[0grayscale1]

My Atlas is equipped with a throttle. I wouldn't own a bike without one. But here, in this road crossing/initial acceleration scenario, I don't think that throttle makes one bit of difference. The torque sensing is giving the motor everything available so there's no advantage. IMHO, this is about comparing a bike that must be shifted a couple of times, to one that does not need to be shifted.

Agree weight is a factor too. The Atlas/Envoilo bike is about 65 lbs. The Bafang 500w geared hub is 55lbs. I think the bigger factor though, is about the shifting. To use the automotive comparison further, street racers running big muscle cars rarely favor 4 speeds over a good automatic. That lesson learned a long time ago.....

Oh, noteworthy too, is the fact that the CVT is not helping when it comes to bike weight. They're much heavier than a straight derailleur set up. That's why the Atlas weighs what it does.

STILL, the Atlas is one pretty darn nice bike. -Al

The Atlas does look like the complete package. My big concern is the fact the Evelo is combining an M600 motor (with 120Nm of torque) with an Eviolo CVT that is only rated at 85 Nm. I do about 6K miles/year on my bike and I am very concerned about the CVT holding up past the warranty (which is only 3 years given the amount I ride).

Getting back to our automotive analogy, I have had plenty of experience modifying cars so that they are putting out more torque than a clutch or tranny can handle and seeing what happens as a result. So I am very wary of doing something similar with an e-bike that I demand reliability from.

 

[AHicks]

The Atlas does look like the complete package. My big concern is the fact the Evelo is combining an M600 motor (with 120Nm of torque) with an Eviolo CVT that is only rated at 85 Nm. I do about 6K miles/year on my bike and I am very concerned about the CVT holding up past the warranty (which is only 3 years given the amount I ride).

Getting back to our automotive analogy, I have had plenty of experience modifying cars so that they are putting out more torque than a clutch or tranny can handle and seeing what happens as a result. So I am very wary of doing something similar with an e-bike that I demand reliability from.

The Atlas is a pretty unique bike. I don't think the combo is available anywhere else. Evelo (Bafang?) has the controller dialed in pretty nicely on this bike. Unlike the Ultra (a gorilla on steroids) there's nothing harsh about it, not on this install anyway. Top end power is limited to 1000w or so, though I'm pretty sure the motor is capable of MUCH more. The off-road guys (where it's made a lot of friends), have been messing with it quite a bit. What I'm trying to say I guess, is that Evelo has likely ordered a detuned motor that's not going to totally overwhelm the CVT. I would suggest if your interested, a call to Evelo might be in order. These guys are on top of their game. Then see what you think.... -Al

 

[Cowlitz]

Yes. I have wished for a throttle on my Gazelle after having stopped on a steep hill.

I chose my stops carefully on a 9 mile climb. I stopped only at a rare spot where the steep slope flattened a bit, or a just as rare spot where a side road was located. When riding to run my dog and just be in the woods for a bit, I just take the Rad instead.

Intersections? I now walk my bike across the most dangerous one. Unfortunately, it will get more dangerous because lanes are being added. There is no bike infrastructure in this town.

 

[Alaskan]

My big concern is the fact the Evelo is combining an M600 motor (with 120Nm of torque) with an Eviolo CVT that is only rated at 85 Nm. I do about 6K miles/year on my bike and I am very concerned about the CVT holding up past the warranty (which is only 3 years given the amount I ride).

Where did you determine that that Evelo is using the shorter speced CVT rather than the one that matches their motor choice spec? I confirmed that, on the Omega, they are use the Sportive model which handles up to 120 Nm continuous torque. My assumption would be that they are using the same on the Atlas.

Table 1: Types of Enviolo hub

Enviolo Hub Model	Gear Ratio Range	Continuous Torque From Motor	Brake Options
City	310%	50 Nm / 250w	Disc/rim/roller
Commercial	310%	50 Nm / 250w	Disc/rim/roller
Trekking	380%	75 Nm / 250w	Disc/rim/roller
Cargo (Heavy Duty)	380%	100 Nm / 500w	Disc/rim
Sportive (Heavy Duty)	380%	120 Nm / 500w	Disc/rim

Source: Enviolo (2018), Enviolo Technical Manual 2020.

 

[0grayscale1]

Where did you determine that that Evelo is using the shorter speced CVT rather than the one that matches their motor choice spec? I confirmed that, on the Omega, they are use the Sportive model which handles up to 120 Nm continuous torque. My assumption would be that they are using the same on the Atlas.

Table 1: Types of Enviolo hub

Enviolo Hub Model	Gear Ratio Range	Continuous Torque From Motor	Brake Options
City	310%	50 Nm / 250w	Disc/rim/roller
Commercial	310%	50 Nm / 250w	Disc/rim/roller
Trekking	380%	75 Nm / 250w	Disc/rim/roller
Cargo (Heavy Duty)	380%	100 Nm / 500w	Disc/rim
Sportive (Heavy Duty)	380%	120 Nm / 500w	Disc/rim

Source: Enviolo (2018), Enviolo Technical Manual 2020.

Their website shows it is the less-capable Trekking version: https://evelo.com/products/atlas/#components

 

[PedalUma]

I have owned, ridden, and worked on a lot of different bikes. Simple is best. My first couple of bikes had throttles. I would rather have a clean class 3 bike that is low maintenance and low weight than a heavy complicated class 2 bike. A Nuvinci is heavy and complex. Throttles are not needed with cadence sensor mid-drives or with torque sensor mid-drives. I now want components that are the most robust for the money. It has taken awhile to get past the gee wiz phase. For example, things such as properly tuned mechanical discs are so much easier to maintain and lower cost over the years than hydraulic brakes. No, I do not miss throttles.

 

[procreator]

I recently talked to a guy at a LBS. He told me that he is hearing that people who do not have a throttle on their bikes are wishing it had one. Apparently, the need for that quick burst of speed when crossing busy streets is a major advantage. More so than the fatigue factor.

 

[fooferdoggie]

I recently talked to a guy at a LBS. He told me that he is hearing that people who do not have a throttle on their bikes are wishing it had one. Apparently, the need for that quick burst of speed when crossing busy streets is a major advantage. More so than the fatigue factor.

but thats more because hub drives don't have good gearing usually around 14-28 and also the delay on cadence sensing. plus maybe lack of bike skills. I learned to accelerate fast on a recumbent. it may actually be a bit slower on my mid drive because I cant shift as fast. but still it is very fast and not a hard thing to do.

 

[Flannel Guy]

I have a 500w hub bike and I use the throttle all the time whenever I need more power. It rarely gets used on my Ultra mid drive bike. Sometimes use it to make an on trail u turn or to get going/ mount the bike from a dead stop if I'm in an awkward spot where I couldn't mount the bike and pedal in one motion

 

[antboy]

If you have gone from a bike with a throttle to one without, did you suffer from throttle withdrawal? Did you eventually get over it?

Yes, and yes.

I'm not anti-throttle, and still own a (Bafang) rear hub with throttle as a mule, but I just prefer the (Shimano) mid-drive with a more natural "bike-like" feel.

As a regular commuter, I thought I'd miss the throttle more when I switched, but nope. The only times I've missed the throttle is when loaded down with groceries, in crappy weather conditions (snow/slush). A throttle makes that SO much easier, but it honestly only comes up a few times a year, and that's what the Bafang is for.

 

[m@Robertson]

Its better to have it so that when you need it, its there for you. Otherwise, you do without and like it.

Pretty much the only time I use throttle is in the exact scenario @shappy0869 does. Its a big help; especially on hills.

I rode an analog bike for decades on city streets. Its the 21st century now. I did all my suffering in the 20th. Flying car. Vacations on the moon. Ebike throttle. These are the benefits we enjoy in the 21st Century.