Haibike 2021...this

Most of these e-bikes are just equal...
Just to clarify:
  • Vado takes up to 28 x 2.0" slick tyres or 28 x 1.75" knobbies. (Turbo Como has 2.4" tyres).
  • The DryTech fenders of Vado are the pride of the company. Indeed, these are just fantastic.
  • I agree with Johnny on the brakes.
  • Allant has a rigid fork; current Vados offer suspension fork (cheap).
It makes no sense to say "this and this make is the best". The best make/model is what we own and ride everyday. Haibikes simply don't appeal to me visually, and don't offer lowered frames. Allants had no Step-Through or Low-Step just until recently. That's it.

The Trek has an all carbon fiber frame versus alloy on the Vado 5 - Allant wins
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This is not necessarily a big benefit taken into account carbon fibre vulnerability and minimal weight gain (both e-bikes weigh roughly the same); everything around the CF bike must be selected carefully and there is very little space for modding the bike. Regarding the 12-speed, my Trance E+ has the latest 12-speed Shimano drive-train. Thin chain, expensive spare components, even no spare pins ever offered for the chain! (Only Quick-Link). I see the benefit of the 12-speed drive-train in an e-MTB, not in the commuter e-bike.
 
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Haibike's guide now that the hpr-120s have their own engine is that the owner could choose between 2 engines, a 90 newtom Hpr-90s and the current model. Why? With the hpr-120s and 630w model the pedelec is put on a 28 kilogram carbon / aluminum chassis, a lot of weight to make an ascent of several kilometers and to run out of battery, a lot of weight to push uphill. A lighter hpr-90 model and cheaper solves the problems of excess weight, lowers the final price of the product and ..... makes more sales .....

Also if they were smart and help to unlock the engine through third parties with a chip ... that will increase sales and for a business to be successful it depends on sales.

My fist eye in this year 2021 wait 2022 in downhill 10.geometry 63,aluminium rock ,rockshock 200mm....fox 40 and dpx2 with coil is better but more weight

My second eye:mtb 6 or 7 in carbon,less weight, fox ... 160mm more weight


My dream :

haibike allmtn SE full carbon, 10000 euros ,Raceface wheel carbon,etc.....
All options con chip unlocked.with 700 euros more 2 bateries 500w =1000 w in downhill 10 2021
 
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Manu said:
Haibike's guide now that the hpr-120s have their own engine is that the owner could choose between 2 engines, a 90 newtom Hpr-90s and the current model. Why? With the hpr-120s and 630w model the pedelec is put on a 28 kilogram carbon / aluminum chassis, a lot of weight to make an ascent of several kilometers and to run out of battery, a lot of weight to push uphill. A lighter hpr-90 model and cheaper solves the problems of excess weight, lowers the final price of the product and ..... makes more sales .....

Also if they were smart and help to unlock the engine through third parties with a chip ... that will increase sales and for a business to be successful it depends on sales.

My fist eye in this year 2021 wait 2022 in downhill 10.geometry 63,aluminium rock ,rockshock 200mm....fox 40 and dpx2 with coil is better but more weight

My second eye:mtb 6 or 7 in carbon,less weight, fox ... 160mm more weight


My dream :

haibike allmtn SE full carbon, 10000 euros ,Raceface wheel carbon,etc.....
All options con chip unlocked.
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Wow, do they make a similar bike with fenders and a rack?
 
Taylor57 said:
Wow, do they make a similar bike with fenders and a rack?
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download the catalog the link is in my first post entering that page download the .pdf, I wanted to leave the pdf here but it tells me that it exceeds the maximum allowed in size.

greetings
 
Stefan Mikes said:
everything around the CF bike must be selected carefully and there is very little space for modding the bike.
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Yes, even pro road cyclists suggest to get the bike with better components instead of carbon frame and lesser components. Carbon frame makes sense on bikes like Creo, Domane HP+ which are at heart road bikes, coming with narrow faster rolling tires and meant to be ridden motor off for a significant amount of time(and even in this case it is not a game changer, it is a nice/necessary addition especially given the price of these bikes). The 1-2lbs weight loss is insignificant given how heavy ebikes are and one can make lighter ebikes from aluminum too(my aluminum gravel bike with pw-se weights around 41lbs which is ligther).

Stefan Mikes said:
I see the benefit of the 12-speed drive-train in an e-MTB, not in the commuter e-bike.
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Another good point. The Vado 5.0 and Allant9.9 has the same level derailleur(M8000/M8120 which are similarly priced just different speeds), one is 11 other is 12. Both drivetrains can take a wide range cassette(Shimano has an 11 speed 11-51 cassette if one wants to switch). Unless you are riding on mtb trails , given the same range cassette, 12 speed doesn't offer anything over 11(just going to increase maintenance cost). Both Vado and Allant are meant for road/gravel but Allant comes with 27.5 x 2.4 tires + 12 speed Shimano MTB derailleur which doesn't make any positive difference on a no-suspension bike without any off road capability. Because of the option to install a suspension fork and adjustability Vado 5.0 actually makes a better bike on the road and gravel.
 
Johnny said:
one can make lighter ebikes from aluminum too(my aluminum gravel bike with pw-se weights around 41lbs which is ligther).
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We might mention Vado SL (Super Lightweight) that is made of aluminium :)
Besides, it makes me laugh when I spot the American/British spelling differences! (I'm forcing myself to use British English, making the only exception for "fenders" instead of "mudguards") ;)
 
Johnny said:
Doesn't Allant have 2.4" (60mm) tires? But more importantly Allant has 27.5ers while Vado has 700c/29ers (and probably clearance for 2.1-2.2 ) which are better when riding without/low power especially on the road.

Have to disagree. I own a bike with high quality alloy fenders, it is nice but I really don't see it being superior to a well designed fender like Vado 5.0's .


I thought it was 625wh. But the ability to add a second battery is a big advantage for Allant anyways.



Vado5.0 is $4600 , it comes with 4 piston brakes front and back and it is a much better value at that price compared to Allant9.9s.

@Stefan Mikes Haibike offerings have great frames and so far I have heard less problems with Haibike frames compared to Specialized. I don't agree that they look the same besides that is subjective and their geometries differ from model to model.
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I got my prices and specs from Court's reviews.

According to Courts review, the brakes on the Vado are two piston. and the price for the 2020 5.0 was $5,150. If there is a price drop for 2021, I wonder what components are being rolled back.

That 635 was a typo. You are correct the Allant has a 625. Trek offers an optional 500w, integrated, piggy-back battery boost.

I had a rear SKS plastic fender disintegrate on a rear rack during a 20 mile freeway ride at 60mph. This was on a Thule Easyfold which does not touch the fender. Give me alloy Fenders every time.

On a speed rated ebike I would rather ride on wider tires for control, comfort and safety.

Thus my conclusion and buying decision differs from yours. Different strokes. Both good bikes. After 2,000 miles on the Allant, I have developed a strong preference for carbon fiber frames, not so much for the weight difference but rather the ride quality, quieter, more absorbent of vibrations.
 
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Johnny said:
Another good point. The Vado 5.0 and Allant9.9 has the same level derailleur(M8000/M8120 which are similarly priced just different speeds), one is 11 other is 12. Both drivetrains can take a wide range cassette(Shimano has an 11 speed 11-51 cassette if one wants to switch). Unless you are riding on mtb trails , given the same range cassette, 12 speed doesn't offer anything over 11(just going to increase maintenance cost). Both Vado and Allant are meant for road/gravel but Allant comes with 27.5 x 2.4 tires + 12 speed Shimano MTB derailleur which doesn't make any positive difference on a no-suspension bike without any off road capability. Because of the option to install a suspension fork and adjustability Vado 5.0 actually makes a better bike on the road and gravel.
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Spoken like a true flatlander. I rarely go off road with my Allant, I have a FS Delight Mountain for that. The Delight has the 11 speed XT with the 11-46 cassette.

The 12 speed is such a superior set up for a class 3 bike, especially in the hilly area where I live. There is actually a huge speed difference between a 10 tooth and an 11 when you are making speed. with the 100 tooth I am spinning at 72 rpm when doing 26 mph. On flat ground I can spin that for mile after mile. With the 11 tooth my cadence is up near 80 which for my 70 year old legs, I can do but not nearly so sustained.

Also I live at the top of a steep hill. The last two blocks are a 17 percent grade. That 51 tooth is a godsend at the end of a ride going home. I am seriously considering changing out the drive train on my other bike for the 12 speed.

The Allant Stager low step has been available during all of 2020. However it will not accept the range boost battery setup.

It is a massive upgrade IMO and something I would highly recommend to anyone considering a mid-drive ebike with derailleaur..
 
Alaskan said:
If there is a price drop for 2021, I wonder what components are being rolled back.
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Alaskan said:
I got my prices and specs from Court's reviews.
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I got the prices and specs from the website.

https://www.specialized.com/us/en/m...056?color=216901-129056&searchText=95017-3002

But now I see that they have a newer model(even cheaper at $4350).

https://www.specialized.com/us/en/turbo-vado-5-0/p/184404?color=293090-184404&searchText=95020-3004

Alaskan said:
I had a rear SKS plastic fender disintegrate on a rear rack during a 20 mile freeway ride at 60mph.
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Maybe that was a lower quality fender I don't think you should generalize . The turbo Vado my friend has have great fenders, he never had any problems with it.

Alaskan said:
On a speed rated ebike I would rather ride on wider tires for control, comfort and safety.
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I agree with this statement up to a point and I can understand your preference however wide tires(2.4+) are inefficient and they make it much less fun to ride without any power so I can not make the superiority argument here. That's why fit roadbikers will prefer Domane HP+ or Creo any day over a bike like allant. Each and everyone of my roadie friends immediately complained once they try 2.4-2.6 tires, for most this is a deal breaker. Even when switching from a 27.5x2.6 to big ben 29x2.0 there is such a big difference , easier to keep the speed and the ride is far more bike like.

Alaskan said:
I have developed a strong preference for carbon fiber frames, not so much for the weight difference but rather the ride quality, quieter, more absorbent of vibrations
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I can understand your preference. However wider tires with less pressure will provide far more comfort than any carbon frame can give you(For example 700x25 carbon frame road bike I rode had a much harsher ride than 700x35c cheaper aluminum gravel bike). Besides the vibration dampening is a matter of how they build the frame , if they overbuild the frame (ebikes are usually built that way since they are heavy and need to accommodate battery, motor etc) that little comfort you may get will be gone. Quieter ? I don't know I haven't noticed any difference between the ones I have ridden. Carbon frames are stiffer for the same weight than aluminum but once you are ok with adding a couple of pounds they become similar. This is a personal preference, imo titanium beats them both.


Alaskan said:
Spoken like a true flatlander. I rarely go off road with my Allant, I have a FS Delight Mountain for that. The Delight has the 11 speed XT with the 11-46 cassette.
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Not really, I regularly take on the routes that have higher grades than %17 percent(there are nice mountain roads close to where I live). So far I am happy with 42 however there are sections that I can see someone preferring 46+.

Alaskan said:
Also I live at the top of a steep hill. The last two blocks are a 17 percent grade. That 51 tooth is a godsend at the end of a ride going home. I am seriously considering changing out the drive train on my other bike for the 12 speed.
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This seems like a problem with the range of the cassette rather than the number of gears. Why don't you try an 11 speed cassette like Shimano 11-51T or Sram 11-50T and it should give you the gear to climb comfortably. With the help of a motor you don't need that closer gearing ratio of a 12 speed , I don't think you are making use of all the 12 cogs in your cassette, my guess would be you are using 7-8 gears frequently.

Alaskan said:
I am spinning at 72 rpm when doing 26 mph. On flat ground I can spin that for mile after mile. With the 11 tooth my cadence is up near 80 which for my 70 year old legs,
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Again I believe you can fix it by adjusting the cassette range. Your Allant has 46 tooth so even with 11T instead of 10T you will be around 75 so the difference in cadence with the right chainring is not that much. For your other bikes, if you really like to keep your chainring but have the benefit of 10-50T why not just changing the smallest cog from 11T to 10T on a 11-50T cassette? Seems to be the least intrusive solution.
 
1603841920021.png

This is the SLX 11-46t I got as the stock spec of my Vado 5.0 (in fact 6.0). @Sierratim has just replaced his 11-42t with 11-50t. Just saying :)
 
Mike TowpathTraveler said:
Okay, I'll bite. Why?

Two German companies who pretty much partnered with each other to bring an e-mtb to the mainstream marketplace, drifting apart? My gut tells me that going carbon fiber on many of their emtb frames was an expense that would not allow a new frame design to accept the smaller Bosch motor. Would not surprise me if that change will be seen in the 2022 models.
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The lead times for Bosch motors are quite long because of the excessive demand from so many OEMs and as you pointed out, the new motor needs different frame mounting design and it certainly adds up to the cost.

The reason for focusing on other motor system can be result of several factors:
  1. The availability and lead times of motors from different motor manufacturers
  2. Cost ( of purchase and re-tooling)
  3. Yamaha just setup a EU office to boost EU sales and they are offering incentives to high volume OEMs like Accell group.
Haibike is not what it used to be. When the Puello family led the business, they were at the forefront of E-bike revolution with new designs and new features but a rift in the Accell group resulted in restructuring and the founder left the company. Along with them, all the top supply chain managers, designers and engineers also left. It was a shame that the founders of the brand had to leave. It was Haibike that really brought in the brand recognition and profits in double digits.
Once all the top people left, Haibike lost its momentum. They had a difficult time with the FLYON models; for about two years, they kept promising FLYON models but they never made it because of technical difficulties.
Meanwhile, companies like CUBE, Trek, and R-M, started eating into the market share. Now, if Haibike has to regain that momentum, they will have to offer very nice designs at very compelling price and I think Yamaha fits in many of their requirements. I still think Haibike has some of the best designs and paint quality.
I was fortunate to meet with the former Haibike team back in early 2015 when Lenny purchased about 100 bikes and listen to their plans.
Now, all of them are working for Husqvarna and Raymon bikes in Germany after the founders left.

1603849213485.png
 
Ravi, as always, appreciate your insider's perspective from a person who was there as Haibike was getting a foothold in the US. Behind the scenes corporate dealings are as intriguing to me as the actual product itself and it was a head scratcher to me that the visionary lady and her team left H-Bike when it was at the top of it's game. I look at that pic and know that though my Lenny's bought model year 2016 Full FatSix may not have been part of that initial order of 100, that the faith and confidence he had in the brand resulted in follow up orders, of which mine was part of that trip across the Atlantic.

This past Sunday I thought I'd pedal out to a local, very big flea market to check on how a family member was doing. Not much for flea markets and big crowds. This is how Haibike nails the design and presentation of their bikes: normal, everyday flea market shoppers coming up to me and peppering me with questions, asking if they could take a picture of the bike, how much, who makes it, how fast is it, what is that thing? After awhile, I told my brother in law that he can take the H-Bike with him the next time he sells out there, put it on top of the table next to his stuff for sale and watch the crowds pour in!
 
Stefan Mikes said:
I don't want to say something that might upset Haibike owners and fans, so let me explain why I have never been interested with that brand. Because yes, Haibike is a big name in Poland. Yes, well-specified Haibike e-bikes with good motors can be found at quite attractive price. But... all Haibike e-bikes look as these were made with almost the same frame design! They actually look the same. On my quest for e-bikes, I needed either Step-Through or Low-Step frame. Cannot see any Haibike with such a design...

Again, Haibikes are well-specced and affordable. I simply don't like their looks.

View attachment 69775
HT e-MTB

View attachment 69776
Trekking S-Pedelec
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I think Haibike wants to be known as the young person's competitive sort of bike. If the owners see profit in the Stefan sort of bikes they will probably market them through a subsidiary and a different name. No slight here Stefan. Give me a couple years and I will be into a low step probably myself. If I'm still with you all that is. I hate doctors.
 
reed scott said:
I think Haibike wants to be known as the young person's competitive sort of bike. If the owners see profit in the Stefan sort of bikes they will probably market them through a subsidiary and a different name. No slight here Stefan. Give me a couple years and I will be into a low step probably myself. If I'm still with you all that is. I hate doctors.
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My female friend Anice fell in love with Haibike Trekking 10 Low Step when she saw it. She's prepared to pay the premium price on it. The question is: Will this model be available?
 
Ravi Kempaiah said:
The lead times for Bosch motors are quite long because of the excessive demand from so many OEMs and as you pointed out, the new motor needs different frame mounting design and it certainly adds up to the cost.
The reason for focusing on other motor system can be result of several factors:
  1. The availability and lead times of motors from different motor manufacturers
  2. Cost ( of purchase and re-tooling)
  3. Yamaha just setup a EU office to boost EU sales and they are offering incentives to high volume OEMs like Accell group.
Click to expand...

Ravi Kempaiah said:
Haibike is not what it used to be. When the Puello family led the business, they were at the forefront of E-bike revolution with new designs and new features but a rift in the Accell group resulted in restructuring and the founder left the company. Along with them, all the top supply chain managers, designers and engineers also left. It was a shame that the founders of the brand had to leave. It was Haibike that really brought in the brand recognition and profits in double digits.
Once all the top people left, Haibike lost its momentum. They had a difficult time with the FLYON models; for about two years, they kept promising FLYON models but they never made it because of technical difficulties.
Meanwhile, companies like CUBE, Trek, and R-M, started eating into the market share. Now, if Haibike has to regain that momentum, they will have to offer very nice designs at very compelling price and I think Yamaha fits in many of their requirements. I still think Haibike has some of the best designs and paint quality.
I was fortunate to meet with the former Haibike team back in early 2015 when Lenny purchased about 100 bikes and listen to their plans.
Now, all of them are working for Husqvarna and Raymon bikes in Germany after the founders left.

View attachment 69842
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Thanks for your sharing your insider knowledge of the EBike market! ;)
 
What does Haibike tell us in that catalog? For the first time they have a full carbon frame for in this case Yamaha and with a model SE even with all the carbon components (Race face).

The wheel 28 only in 2 trekking.

clear tendency to use geometries more than Nduro (65 degrees) even on the emtb and put 27+ wheels at the rear and 29 at the front in concept downhill and Nduro style,best ebike.

The most beautiful aluminum frame for long-range routes is undoubtedly for the bosch drive and with its range extender up to 1125 watts, you can go up the mountain in mode turbo.

Geometries
downhill 63 .... but that one has 2 wheels of 27 + ..... if you change for a front wheel 29 ...... 62 or 61 degrees.
xduro Nduro 5.0,8.0,10.0 changes to 64 degrees from 65 from before with 27 + wheels, we go back to what it was before it can still be lowered further by changing the front wheel for a 29 fork,all TQ120.

ALL mountain range from 1 to 7 + SE ,angle 65 and all of them with rear wheel 27.5 behind and 29 in front.Bosch with aluminiun /yamaha with aluminiun or full carbon frame.

Fullnine,Fullseven,Alltrail 66.

Little summary


¿Why this trend of downhill and Enduro 29 and 27.5+? The handlebars or stem are higher and the 27.5 + rear wheel allows you to bring your ass further back and down out of the seat. The braking is more effective on the descent and you have better steering control.

To go up the mountain go up your saddle, to go down the hill put it down because your ass should be on your rear wheel.
 
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