Freezing Yamaha motor

[Jyrki]

Hi !
My bike is Haibike Sduro 4.0 Trekking from the year 2018 with Yamaha PW motor. I have used it for daily commuting all year round, 9.900km without problems. But now we have quite a cold wither here in Finland. The motor worked well in -15°C (= 5°F), but last morning there was -22°C (= -7,6°F), which seemed to be too much for the motor. The battery was full loaded and had been overnight inside the house as usually, but the bike is always out. When I started biking the display and lights functioned normally but the motor did not react to anything. After that I took the whole bike in for the day to warm it up. In the evening I tried once more, and the motor functioned normally again.

My questions are:
1. Is there a certain temperature limit under which the motor does not work, and what might it be, or is there something wrong in my motor?
2. Is there anything that can be done since it is not acceptable that the commuter stops working when the temperature happens to drop? I always take the battery in at work but there is no place for the whole bike to keep it warm.

 

[Akrotiri]

There is a specific preferred operating minimum and maximum temperature for ebike motors.
As for the cold there is a company that makes sleeves for batteries and motors to help keep them warm during the frigid cold winters in places like Finland.

FAHRER Berlin | Motor Cover | FAHRER Berlin - the bicycle accessories manufacturer

The MOTOR COVER fits all e-bikes with center motor.Because of its shape and the use of flexible neopren the cover fits very well. The motor is protected from abrasion or rubbing.

www.fahrer-berlin.de

 

[rich c]

I believe you personally discovered the answer to question #1. It worked at -15, it didn't work at -22. Don't try to ride it under -15. You've already done the data research.

 

[TOOSLOW]

Pretty useless if you can't ride an ebike in -22c, we spend most of our winter in those temps. I have used my Bosch in -30c, batteries stored inside.

 

[Jyrki]

There is a specific preferred operating minimum and maximum temperature for ebike motors.
As for the cold there is a company that makes sleeves for batteries and motors to help keep them warm during the frigid cold winters in places like Finland.

FAHRER Berlin | Motor Cover | FAHRER Berlin - the bicycle accessories manufacturer

The MOTOR COVER fits all e-bikes with center motor.Because of its shape and the use of flexible neopren the cover fits very well. The motor is protected from abrasion or rubbing.

www.fahrer-berlin.de

Unfortunately that kind of motor cover does not help in this problem. In any case the bike stays out during the working day and a motor transport protection cover does not warm it up. A battery cover is a totally different thing. It keeps the battery warm during riding.

 

[Jyrki]

I believe you personally discovered the answer to question #1. It worked at -15, it didn't work at -22. Don't try to ride it under -15. You've already done the data research.

Thank You, but it is not that simple. I am quite dissatisfied if there is a limit since the bike is for commuting and that purpose does not count weather. And it also makes difference whether the limit is -22 or -15. Very often the temperature here is somewhere in between.

 

[Nomad]

I'll be keeping an eye on this thread as I run a 2020 Stance with a Yamaha motor. While my bike comes in at night during my shift it is outside. I have been down to 18 f maybe even colder but 18 for sure. I do have a cover I put over the whole bike on snowy or rainy days while I'm at work. I also have a battery cover I use from the company mentioned earlier not just for the cold but to keep snow and water some what at bay as well sand and small stones. so roughly -7 c last year I rode in at -8 f on my acoustic on the worst day that's the actual temp not wind chill so around the temp your referring to.

 

[Mike TowpathTraveler]

From the Yamaha X9 service manual, page 2-14:
"Temperature protection function
If the battery pack’s internal temperature is -20°C or less or 80°C or higher while the battery pack is discharging (during the power assist), the temperature protection function of the battery pack operates and the battery pack stops discharging. If the battery capacity indicator button “ ” is pushed at this time, the battery capacity indicator lamps [1], [2], [3], and [4] flash slowly at the same time.
TIP
The battery pack automatically recovers when the battery pack’s internal temperature returns to the allowable temperature range for charging."

It would be worth a shot to store the bike along with the battery, inside your home or workplace, keeping it at room temperature before going out on your ride. One of those neoprene battery covers, maybe doubled up, to help retain the warmth, or some other means of wrapping the battery might be in order here. Once underway, discharging of the battery can help add warmth underneath that insulation; as well as creating some kind of warmth within the motor casing.

Being so far to the north, you are pushing the drive system at it's extreme limits in that kind of cold. If you can keep everything at room temp and insulated, you just might get by working at those temp limits. Good luck and let us know what you find. Most folks on this forum don't operate in those extreme temps.

 

[Jyrki]

From the Yamaha X9 service manual, page 2-14:
"Temperature protection function
If the battery pack’s internal temperature is -20°C or less or 80°C or higher while the battery pack is discharging (during the power assist), the temperature protection function of the battery pack operates and the battery pack stops discharging. If the battery capacity indicator button “ ” is pushed at this time, the battery capacity indicator lamps [1], [2], [3], and [4] flash slowly at the same time.
TIP
The battery pack automatically recovers when the battery pack’s internal temperature returns to the allowable temperature range for charging."

It would be worth a shot to store the bike along with the battery, inside your home or workplace, keeping it at room temperature before going out on your ride. One of those neoprene battery covers, maybe doubled up, to help retain the warmth, or some other means of wrapping the battery might be in order here. Once underway, discharging of the battery can help add warmth underneath that insulation; as well as creating some kind of warmth within the motor casing.

Being so far to the north, you are pushing the drive system at it's extreme limits in that kind of cold. If you can keep everything at room temp and insulated, you just might get by working at those temp limits. Good luck and let us know what you find. Most folks on this forum don't operate in those extreme temps.

Thank You for those facts, very interesting. But as I mentioned above, in this case, the battery had room temperature while the bike had been out. The behavior of batteries in low temperatures is well known but I still wonder, what component in the motor reacts to low temperatures and why.

 

[Mike TowpathTraveler]

Understood about the battery inside. We'll never know about the motor unless a Yamaha engineer comes onboard to this thread and offers up an explanation. Doubt that's going to happen.

Bring in the battery AND the LCD display, to keep warm and duplicate your riding with a cold bike and warm display and battery. On those especially bitter cold days, I bring in my display while the Haibike sits out in the cold garage (never an issue like you have described with my Full FatSix). I have noted in temps at 20F and lower, the display is sluggish, thus I keep it inside.

After that test and it still stops running, you will have at least narrowed your issue down to the motor. Then, bring the bike inside to warm up prior to your next commute and see what happens. Let us know what comes with your findings.

 

[Nomad]

From the Yamaha X9 service manual, page 2-14:
"Temperature protection function
If the battery pack’s internal temperature is -20°C or less or 80°C or higher while the battery pack is discharging (during the power assist), the temperature protection function of the battery pack operates and the battery pack stops discharging. If the battery capacity indicator button “ ” is pushed at this time, the battery capacity indicator lamps [1], [2], [3], and [4] flash slowly at the same time.
TIP
The battery pack automatically recovers when the battery pack’s internal temperature returns to the allowable temperature range for charging."

It would be worth a shot to store the bike along with the battery, inside your home or workplace, keeping it at room temperature before going out on your ride. One of those neoprene battery covers, maybe doubled up, to help retain the warmth, or some other means of wrapping the battery might be in order here. Once underway, discharging of the battery can help add warmth underneath that insulation; as well as creating some kind of warmth within the motor casing.

Being so far to the north, you are pushing the drive system at it's extreme limits in that kind of cold. If you can keep everything at room temp and insulated, you just might get by working at those temp limits. Good luck and let us know what you find. Most folks on this forum don't operate in those extreme temps.

I'm thinking that as the battery discharges like a car battery it will freeze at a higher temp then a completely
charged battery. A flat car battery can freeze expand and short cells and or crack cases destroying it. So that is a good safety feature. As he noted the battery was at room temp thou. However when you ride at lower temps you need more installation and so does the your motor at a certain point.